VIT K2 MK-4 increased calcification/stiffness?

[UG Krishnamurti]

While VIT K2 MK-4 [45mg] helped me with eczema and psoriasis [which maybe prove that this particular skin issues are tightly related to the blood vessels] it caused me to have symptoms of aortic valve calcification/myocarditis. Really badly.

Extreme chest tightening, short cough, shallow breathing, kidney pain, feeling of very stiff intestine and blood vessels and also some bit of blood in my stool.
Also symptoms of blood clotting [Some bloody "zits" on my skin].
One day I felt like If I move too fast the aorta/blood vessel in my chest would "break". That's how stiff it was.

First symptom I felt was some tingling in my chest so I removed VIT E which I was taking suspecting it was the cause - leaving me with only VIT K for the next 10+ days and discovering the worsening of the symptoms.

One day I felt such great kidney pain/inflammation [kidney was pulsating with the rhythm of the heartbeat] and any mineral dense food/drink would prolong the pain. With kidney pain I usually get chest pain and shortness of breath too...
Progesterone for example would reduce the pain and improve the symptoms. Maybe because of it's blood thinning/clot regulating effects.

It seems that K2 is doing something with the blood and the body can not regulate the change of the homeostasis for some reason.
It's pretty bizarre that I had increase in my calcification, kidney pain and stiffness while consuming high doses of VIT K.
I'm still baffled.

I haven't seen single bad study on VIT K and there seems to be no upper limit, but hey - all the bad ***t will happen to me, don't worry.

What the hell is the mechanism behind this?

 

[looking2grow96]

If you have blood in your stool, that's usually a symptom of something much, much worse. I hope you've immediate discontinued the k2???

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

If you have blood in your stool, that's usually a symptom of something much, much worse. I hope you've immediate discontinued the k2???

I suffer from crohn's disease [I'm mostly symptom free for 2 years].

And I had blood from my stool from using several different things in the past.

Cynomel, Cynoplus, VIT D, doxycycline and now VIT K all gave me some blood in my stool.

If I try somehow to connect the dots they all somehow lead to the state of the blood vessels since all of these supplements in some way have blood thinning/coagulating effect

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

Ray in an email to me:

"Cooked greens, milk, cheese, and eggs are very good sources of K. The solvents used to extract vitamin K, for example from natto, often cause problems. The present vitamin K culture is the creation of marketing campaigns, and is causing a lot of harm."

Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1971;41(2):180-8.
The relationship between the storage forms of vitamin K and dietary phylloquinone
in the dog.
Duello TJ, Matschiner JT.

J Nutr. 1998 Feb;128(2):220-3.
Conversion of dietary phylloquinone to tissue menaquinone-4 in rats is not
dependent on gut bacteria.
Davidson RT, Foley AL, Engelke JA, Suttie JW.
Department of Nutritional Sciences, College of Agricultural and Life Sciences,
University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, WI 53706, USA.
The ability of male rats to accumulate menaquinone-4 (MK-4) in tissues when fed a
vitamin K-deficient diet supplemented with intraperitoneal phylloquinone (K) as
the sole source of vitamin K for 14 d was assessed. In both conventionally housed
controls and gnotobiotic rats, supplementation with the equivalent of 1500 microg
vitamin K/kg diet increased (P < 0.001) tissue MK-4 concentrations above those of
controls fed a vitamin K-deficient diet. MK-4 concentrations were approximately 5
ng/g (11 pmol/g) in liver, 14 ng/g in heart, 17 ng/g in kidney, 50 ng/g in brain
and 250 ng/g in mandibular salivary glands of gnotobiotic rats. MK-4
concentrations in conventionally housed rats were higher than in gnotobiotic rats
in heart (P < 0.01), brain (P < 0.01) and kidney (P < 0.05) but lower in salivary
gland (P < 0.05). Cultures of a kidney-derived cell line (293) converted K to the
expoxide of MK-4 in a manner that was dependent on both time of incubation and
concentration of vitamin K in the media. A liver-derived cell line (H-35) was
less active in carrying out this conversion. These data offer conclusive proof
that the tissue-specific formation of MK-4 from K is a metabolic transformation
that does not require bacterial transformation to menadione as an intermediate in
the process.

Calif Med. 1970 Apr;112(4):65-7.
Don't use the wrong vitamin K.
Udall JA.
The emergency use of vitamin K is essentially limited to the reversal of
drug-induced hypoprothrombinemia. In patients with adequate liver function,
phytonadione acts promptly and predictably in this capacity whereas the
derivatives of menadione counteract coumarin drugs only slightly or not at all.
It is dangerous to rely on menadione analogues, and these drugs should be removed
from emergency room drug stores.

Biomed Res Int. 2015;2015:296721.
Vitamin K1 exerts antiproliferative effects and induces apoptosis in three
differently graded human colon cancer cell lines.
Orlando A(1), Linsalata M(1), Tutino V(2), D'Attoma B(1), Notarnicola M(2), Russo
F(1).
(1)Laboratory of Nutritional Pathophysiology, National Institute for Digestive
Diseases IRCCS "Saverio de Bellis", Castellana Grotte, 70013 Bari, Italy.
(2)Laboratory of Nutritional Biochemistry, National Institute for Digestive
Diseases IRCCS "Saverio de Bellis", Castellana Grotte, 70013 Bari, Italy.
Vitamin K1 has been demonstrated as having anticancer potentiality mainly in
liver cancer cells. Beyond the reported mechanisms of cancer inhibition (cell
cycle arrest and induction of apoptosis), a possible control by vitamin K1 on
molecules affecting cell growth could be hypothesized. In the literature, few (if
any) data are available on its antitumor effects on colon cancer cells.
Therefore, the aims of the study were to investigate in three differently graded
human colon cancer cell lines (Caco-2, HT-29, and SW480) the effects of
increasing concentrations of vitamin K1 (from 10 μM to 200 μM) administered up to
72 h on (1) cell proliferation, (2) apoptosis with the possible involvement of
the MAPK pathway, and (3) polyamine biosynthesis. Vitamin K1 treatment caused a
significant antiproliferative effect and induced apoptosis in all the cell lines,
with the involvement of the MAPK pathway. A concomitant and significant decrease
in the polyamine biosynthesis occurred. This is the first study demonstrating a
significant polyamine decrease in addition to the antiproliferative and
proapoptotic effects following vitamin K1 administration to colon cancer cell
lines. Therapeutically, combinations of vitamin K1 with polyamine inhibitors
and/or analogues may represent a suitable option for chemoprevention and/or
treatment in future strategies for colorectal cancer management.

Scand J Gastroenterol. 2014 Jun;49(6):715-21.
Vitamin K1 attenuates bile duct ligation-induced liver fibrosis in rats.
Jiao K(1), Sun Q, Chen B, Li S, Lu J.
(1)Department of Laboratory Animal Science, School of Basic Medical Science,
Capital Medical University , Beijing, 100069 , China.
Vitamin K1 is used as a liver protection drug for cholestasis-induced liver
fibrosis in China, but the mechanism of vitamin K1's action in liver fibrosis is
unclear. In this study, a model of liver fibrosis was achieved via bile duct
ligation in rats. The rats were then injected with vitamin K1, and the levels of
serum aspartate aminotransferase, alanine transaminase, total bilirubin and the
fibrotic grade score, collagen content, the expressions of α-smooth muscle actin
(SMA) and cytokeratin 19 (CK19) were measured on day 28 after ligation. The
levels of the biochemical parameters, fibrotic score and collagen content were
significantly reduced by treatment with vitamin K1 in bile duct-ligated rats. In
addition, α-SMA and CK19 expression was significantly reduced by vitamin K1
treatment in bile duct-ligated rats. These results suggested that vitamin K1 may
attenuate liver fibrosis by inhibiting hepatic stellate cell activation in bile
duct-ligated rats.

 

[xeliex]

Ray in an email to me:

"Cooked greens, milk, cheese, and eggs are very good sources of K. The solvents used to extract vitamin K, for example from natto, often cause problems. The present vitamin K culture is the creation of marketing campaigns, and is causing a lot of harm."

Thank you for sharing - it is something to think about. Most supplements that I experiment with cause problems after a while being on them - perhaps except cholecalciferol in olive oil.

 

[David PS]

While VIT K2 MK-4 [45mg] helped me with eczema and psoriasis [which maybe prove that this particular skin issues are tightly related to the blood vessels] it caused me to have symptoms of aortic valve calcification/myocarditis. Really badly.

That is a megadose of K2. "Although an RDA for K2 hasn’t been established, Dietary Reference Intakes for vitamin K1 suggest between 90-120 µg/day."

Vitamin K2 - Should I Supplement with Vitamin K2?

Dear Mark, I've been hearing a lot about vitamin K2 lately. Should I be taking vitamin K2 supplements or is a Primal diet sufficient? Kate Thank you,

www.marksdailyapple.com

You took 45,000 ug plus what you get from eating healthy foods. That might be 300X normal. Why so much? Do you know that more of good thing is not always better?

Convert Milligrams to Micrograms (mg → μg)

Milligrams to Micrograms. Convert between the units (mg → μg) or see the conversion table

convertlive.com

People typically take K2 when they are supplementing vitamin D to restore balance. I have not heard of someone tipping the balance in the other direction. How much D2 do you have in your system? I normally do not recommend the expense of a vitamin D test. Here you may have tanked your vitamin D level and that is not wise.

I haven't seen single bad study on VIT K and there seems to be no upper limit, but hey - all the bad ***t will happen to me, don't worry.

What the hell is the mechanism behind this?

You might consider getting together with a medical writer and have your case reported in a medical journal.

 

[Dr. B]

Thank you for sharing - it is something to think about. Most supplements that I experiment with cause problems after a while being on them - perhaps except cholecalciferol in olive oil.

what dosage regimen did you use for that? that caused me major major issues, using 10,000 IU daily for 3 years. with 3000+ Iu vitamin A from diet only.

 

[xeliex]

what dosage regimen did you use for that? that caused me major major issues, using 10,000 IU daily for 3 years. with 3000+ Iu vitamin A from diet only.

Regarding vitamin D? I had to take 10,000 iu for 2 weeks and then down to 2000-5000 iu daily after correcting the deficiency. But I am >200lbs and wouldn't recommend 10,000iu sustained for most people. I pushed my levels too high with 8000iu daily one time.

 

[Dr. B]

Regarding vitamin D? I had to take 10,000 iu for 2 weeks and then down to 2000-5000 iu daily after correcting the deficiency. But I am >200lbs and wouldn't recommend 10,000iu sustained for most people. I pushed my levels too high with 8000iu daily one time.

what do you think would happen if you did use the megadose for years? what kind of side effectS? in my case I got all the excess cortisol/excess serotonin symptoms

 

[xeliex]

what do you think would happen if you did use the megadose for years? what kind of side effectS? in my case I got all the excess cortisol/excess serotonin symptoms

There are case studies of people taking a lot more by mistake and inducing hypercalcemic symptoms. All case studies I know fully resolved their problem once they stopped taking the ridiculously high doses.

 

[FrostedShores]

K2 MK-4 by itself didn't work too well for me. I now take a mix - K1, K2 MK-4 & K2 MK-7 - and I've had much better results.

 

[Dr. B]

There are case studies of people taking a lot more by mistake and inducing hypercalcemic symptoms. All case studies I know fully resolved their problem once they stopped taking the ridiculously high doses.

i got hyper cortisol and serotonin symptoms too are those connected to hypercalcemia?
also how long would it take to resolve considering I used 10k IU daily for 3 years.

 

[baccheion]

i got hyper cortisol and serotonin symptoms too are those connected to hypercalcemia?
also how long would it take to resolve considering I used 10k IU daily for 3 years.

Need to maintain ratio with vitamin A. There's also DHEA.

 

[UG Krishnamurti]

K2 MK-4 by itself didn't work too well for me. I now take a mix - K1, K2 MK-4 & K2 MK-7 - and I've had much better results.

That's interesting. I've used my K2-MK4 drops from health natura and MK-7 & and K1 in powder form from bulk supplements. I'm glad it works for you.

i got hyper cortisol and serotonin symptoms too are those connected to hypercalcemia?

Could you name the symptoms?

 

[Dr. B]

There are case studies of people taking a lot more by mistake and inducing hypercalcemic symptoms. All case studies I know fully resolved their problem once they stopped taking the ridiculously high doses.

could there be special effects from megadosing D3 for 3 years then stopping it entirely? like once you stop could there be insane bone building, muscle gaining, androgenic and high metabolic effects

 

[orangebear]

Interesting. I randomly came across this thread after having some kidney pain myself last night (along with anxiety and other symptoms). The background is I’ve been doing Ray Peat style of eating for several months with some success, but then I started getting liver pain and otherwise getting worse. I started doing the low vitamin A diet because some of my symptoms do match those for VA toxicity and I know I’ve overdone VA I’m both supplements and food. I initially got some relief but then slowly started feeling worse in a different way, along with a slowing down of my metabolism. For the past couple days I’ve been taking coral calcium to make up for the lack in the low VA foods and have been using a drop of full spectrum K2 topically. Then last night the anxiety and pain got worse and I certainly have calcium issues (arthritis, low bone density, soft tissue calcification, sensitive teeth). Now I’m wondering if the 1mg K2 daily could be the culprit after reading this thread. Even though K2 is supposed to move the calcium from the soft tissue to the bones/teeth.

 

[baccheion]

Interesting. I randomly came across this thread after having some kidney pain myself last night (along with anxiety and other symptoms). The background is I’ve been doing Ray Peat style of eating for several months with some success, but then I started getting liver pain and otherwise getting worse. I started doing the low vitamin A diet because some of my symptoms do match those for VA toxicity and I know I’ve overdone VA I’m both supplements and food. I initially got some relief but then slowly started feeling worse in a different way, along with a slowing down of my metabolism. For the past couple days I’ve been taking coral calcium to make up for the lack in the low VA foods and have been using a drop of full spectrum K2 topically. Then last night the anxiety and pain got worse and I certainly have calcium issues (arthritis, low bone density, soft tissue calcification, sensitive teeth). Now I’m wondering if the 1mg K2 daily could be the culprit after reading this thread. Even though K2 is supposed to move the calcium from the soft tissue to the bones/teeth.

Add 1g+ vitamin C to help protect against oxidized vitamin A. Vitamin A also helps, especially if matched with sunning to burn through the fat-solubles.

 

[Dr. B]

Add 1g+ vitamin C to help protect against oxidized vitamin A. Vitamin A also helps, especially if matched with sunning to burn through the fat-solubles.

does sunning burn all fat solubles including D3 and E, or only burns K2 and A and helps utilize them for bones?

 

[aniciete]

Interesting. I randomly came across this thread after having some kidney pain myself last night (along with anxiety and other symptoms). The background is I’ve been doing Ray Peat style of eating for several months with some success, but then I started getting liver pain and otherwise getting worse. I started doing the low vitamin A diet because some of my symptoms do match those for VA toxicity and I know I’ve overdone VA I’m both supplements and food. I initially got some relief but then slowly started feeling worse in a different way, along with a slowing down of my metabolism. For the past couple days I’ve been taking coral calcium to make up for the lack in the low VA foods and have been using a drop of full spectrum K2 topically. Then last night the anxiety and pain got worse and I certainly have calcium issues (arthritis, low bone density, soft tissue calcification, sensitive teeth). Now I’m wondering if the 1mg K2 daily could be the culprit after reading this thread. Even though K2 is supposed to move the calcium from the soft tissue to the bones/teeth.

You don’t think the liver pain came from the fact that you got the covid vaxx?

 

[orangebear]

You don’t think the liver pain came from the fact that you got the covid vaxx?

I suppose it's possible, but I've had liver pain with every health crash I've had, even years before getting vaxxed. I recovered from both the J&J and Moderna boosters fine within weeks of having them, though they certainly could have added to the toxic load I already had in my liver. I regret getting the vaccinations, but my goal is to deal with what I have now rather than changing the past. I've gathered that I've probably had liver issues all my life and every crash involved the liver being pushed to the edge of what it could handle, so now I want to know what I can do within my power to get things going in the right direction.