Vegan debate

[Sefton10]

High energy is not always a good thing. He's a bit too wired for me

I agree, as most YouTubers do, he seems to resort to clickbait videos and titles to get the hits, and his weirdness seems to be part of his schtick too, but the core of his message (high carb, low fat, plant-based) with a couple of tweaks I outlined above is pretty on point.

 

[username]

Yeah like I said you have to understand some core basic metabolic principles and apply them, otherwise it certainly can be unhealthy. Not all "plant based" diets are the same, many people go vegan and still have a low sugar, low carb, limit calorie type perspective - not healthy. But the same can be said for meat eating diets if they are full carnivore and keto with no sugar or carbs - might be ok in the beginning but long term they look sickly, stressed and age very quickly. Alot of cortisol and gluconeogenesis aint good. Both ends of the spectrum I guess - add into that a lack of awareness for the issues with PUFA/Cooked PUFA and both will massively hinder thyroid function and metabolism in general. Ironically a standard american diet is probably better than both of those.

I live in the tropics. The people around focus on fruit and eat as much as they want. They really don't look well. Skin looks off. Very skinny with little muscle. It's funny because I won't talk diet with them anymore, but I have witnessed them try to get other people to follow their way of eating and the irony is that the people they are talking to hands down look in much better health than they themselves appear.
I seemed to me that when I began incorporating meat again, I became MUCH more rational individual capable of connecting dots in all areas of my life. I think the fruit focused vegan diet really limited my mental faculties and based on the behaviour of the people in my community, I'd say they are experiencing the same. My n=1 is that I haven't met any long term vegans that don't have quite literally HUGE problems... women start losing their periods. digestion becomes a serious problem.
Maybe the vegan that I was and the vegans that I know and meet "just aren't doing it right". It sounds more like a theory that doesn't work at all in practice and with more digging into scientific papers you realize the theory doesn't have much legitimate support. and the evolutionary lens isn't compelling.

 

[username]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWrJ7lFCMW4

This is funny. He starts listing about half a dozen maybe more famous vegans and uses them as examples of who you wouldn't want to listen to because they are getting awful results. Then he lists some vegans that are supposedly crushing it and coaching people like Jon Venus... only Jon Venus is vehemently anti vegan these days because of the absurd amount of issues that his clients were getting because of the vegan diet... Sugar is great... but the vegan ideology is riddled with holes. People falling apart all around you... all of them approaching veganism with a different strategy. Non of them working for the overwhelming majority of people.

 

[SamYo123]

High energy is not always a good thing. He's a bit too wired for me

7billion+ people on the planet put them all on same diet, you will get many that are wired and not wired put them on a different diet, same thing..

His bloods and thyroid all appear fine

 

[Runenight201]

Vegan men have higher testosterone levels? After controlling for everything they found 10% higher levels of T in the blood. SHBG was also up which they explained was the reason for higher T. FT (free testosterone?) stayed the same.

Can anybody explain what this means? The conclusion the authors drew was that there are no noticeable differences of androgenicty between vegan and non vegan groups.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf

 

[Adf]

There is no superior diet for all. Only the diet that fits your individual body. I live on mostly beans, rice, pasta, cooked in sauce made from vegetables like tomato. I'll drink some milk in my coffee or eat some cheese, not out of necessity but for flavour and taste. Beside that I'm completely vegetarian. No meat whatsoever. I'm not the pinnacle, top 1% of health by any means, but my muscle and strength has not decreased even 1% since removing meat from my diet 4 years ago. I'm stronger and my muscles are larger, and newbie gains is not an excuse because I've been lifting weights since 2008.

Things that are important to think about...
- Most studies don't have just your best interest at heart. At best, most studies have financial incentive + your best interest, if your best interest can be achieved along with financial incentive, creating some bias. At worst, Financial incentive is the primary goal and the study is completely bias.

- The human body is like the ocean, or outer space. 99% of it is unknown. What we currently know about our body is a step in the right direction, but it's a grain of salt in the sand on the beach. There is potentially infinite amount of unknowns about our body, infinite because of adaptation and evolution.

- The overdependence that most people have on studies, is likely if not certainly fueled by the corporations funding the studies, possibly starting with the pharmaceutical industry, spearheaded by Rockefellers back in the early 1900's. They want your absolute trust in their product from the get go, no ifs, ands or buts, so all they need to do is cite a study and they have your trust. This is especially evident to me since people today trust someone else's study, over anecdotes of actual people. Even when there is thousands upon thousands of anecdotes, they are looked down upon compared to the might of the official study. This, to me, is an intentionally designed system that has most people brainwashed. For some stupid (imo) reason, most people today rely more on studies from a blatantly corrupt system, than on what they experience themselves.

- The best, literally the best form of knowledge you can gain is NOT from any study from a corrupt system that is likely biased. It is from your own experience. Become both the scientist and the labrat. Grab a notebook and write notes on how you feel eating certain things. Incorporate a certain food, like soy, into your diet for 3 months, writing a detailed logbook, of notes every day how you feel, any changes that are made. Take a certain food out of your diet, repeat the process. Get your bloodwork checked before during and after. It's more time consuming yes, but the knowledge you gain is millions of times more accurate and correct to your individual needs.

Studies are great to read, they're a good starting source to learn something new. I have cited them myself so call me a hypocrite. But the over reliance of our society today, and how so many people trust studies more than they trust themselves and their own experience, is just so backwards.

So for all of you with the strong anti vegan stance here, I challenge you for 1 month to go vegan, if you haven't already, or at least vegetarian. Take your notebook and pen in hand and write detailed notes on any changes you see and feel. Prove your arguments for yourself, don't just cite studies and call them fact. You can still avoid PUFA oil to your best abilities, but you can certainly get good nutrition from beans, rice, fruits, vegetables etc. Prove your argument to yourself by investigating and experiencing the opposition to it.

I would issue the challenge to vegans too, to eat meat and take notes, but their avoiding meat (like myself) is usually an ethical choice and I doubt there's many if any vegans here, so it would be kind of pointless.

As for myself, the notes I have taken RE meat eating.. I have eaten meat several times within the last 4 years. When I eat fish, I don't feel much different however each time I ate red meat I felt highly frustratable and aggressive. I can turn on aggression if/when I need it easily on my diet without meat, but when I eat red meat, I become stressed and anxious and the aggression is much less controllable. This anxious/stressed state was my normal for basically my whole life, back before ceasing meat consumption.

It's simply not for me, I am happy, confident, and in far greater emotional control on a vegetarian diet.

 

[Peatness]

Vegetarian and vegan diets and risks of total and site-specific fractures: results from the prospective EPIC-Oxford study - BMC Medicine

Background There is limited prospective evidence on possible differences in fracture risks between vegetarians, vegans, and non-vegetarians. We aimed to study this in a prospective cohort with a large proportion of non-meat eaters. Methods In EPIC-Oxford, dietary information was collected at...

bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com

 

[FrenchKiwi]

There is no superior diet for all. Only the diet that fits your individual body. I live on mostly beans, rice, pasta, cooked in sauce made from vegetables like tomato. I'll drink some milk in my coffee or eat some cheese, not out of necessity but for flavour and taste. Beside that I'm completely vegetarian. No meat whatsoever. I'm not the pinnacle, top 1% of health by any means, but my muscle and strength has not decreased even 1% since removing meat from my diet 4 years ago. I'm stronger and my muscles are larger, and newbie gains is not an excuse because I've been lifting weights since 2008.

Things that are important to think about...
- Most studies don't have just your best interest at heart. At best, most studies have financial incentive + your best interest, if your best interest can be achieved along with financial incentive, creating some bias. At worst, Financial incentive is the primary goal and the study is completely bias.

- The human body is like the ocean, or outer space. 99% of it is unknown. What we currently know about our body is a step in the right direction, but it's a grain of salt in the sand on the beach. There is potentially infinite amount of unknowns about our body, infinite because of adaptation and evolution.

- The overdependence that most people have on studies, is likely if not certainly fueled by the corporations funding the studies, possibly starting with the pharmaceutical industry, spearheaded by Rockefellers back in the early 1900's. They want your absolute trust in their product from the get go, no ifs, ands or buts, so all they need to do is cite a study and they have your trust. This is especially evident to me since people today trust someone else's study, over anecdotes of actual people. Even when there is thousands upon thousands of anecdotes, they are looked down upon compared to the might of the official study. This, to me, is an intentionally designed system that has most people brainwashed. For some stupid (imo) reason, most people today rely more on studies from a blatantly corrupt system, than on what they experience themselves.

- The best, literally the best form of knowledge you can gain is NOT from any study from a corrupt system that is likely biased. It is from your own experience. Become both the scientist and the labrat. Grab a notebook and write notes on how you feel eating certain things. Incorporate a certain food, like soy, into your diet for 3 months, writing a detailed logbook, of notes every day how you feel, any changes that are made. Take a certain food out of your diet, repeat the process. Get your bloodwork checked before during and after. It's more time consuming yes, but the knowledge you gain is millions of times more accurate and correct to your individual needs.

Studies are great to read, they're a good starting source to learn something new. I have cited them myself so call me a hypocrite. But the over reliance of our society today, and how so many people trust studies more than they trust themselves and their own experience, is just so backwards.

So for all of you with the strong anti vegan stance here, I challenge you for 1 month to go vegan, if you haven't already, or at least vegetarian. Take your notebook and pen in hand and write detailed notes on any changes you see and feel. Prove your arguments for yourself, don't just cite studies and call them fact. You can still avoid PUFA oil to your best abilities, but you can certainly get good nutrition from beans, rice, fruits, vegetables etc. Prove your argument to yourself by investigating and experiencing the opposition to it.

I would issue the challenge to vegans too, to eat meat and take notes, but their avoiding meat (like myself) is usually an ethical choice and I doubt there's many if any vegans here, so it would be kind of pointless.

As for myself, the notes I have taken RE meat eating.. I have eaten meat several times within the last 4 years. When I eat fish, I don't feel much different however each time I ate red meat I felt highly frustratable and aggressive. I can turn on aggression if/when I need it easily on my diet without meat, but when I eat red meat, I become stressed and anxious and the aggression is much less controllable. This anxious/stressed state was my normal for basically my whole life, back before ceasing meat consumption.

It's simply not for me, I am happy, confident, and in far greater emotional control on a vegetarian diet.

I agree with the self experimentation idea. Constantly researching diet and health has screwed with my ability to think for myself and I often ignore the negative consequences of a food because it is supposedly the holy grail (coffee for example). Can you give me some examples of meals that align with your goals?