Vegan debate

[tankasnowgod]

Lol

Why did you lol? It's true. In fact, that's a conservative estimate.

This USDA list shows soy as having quite high isoflavone levels, with milk returning a zero value-

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/80400525/Data/isoflav/Isoflav_R2.pdf

Also, I don't know if plant estrogens are "less active" than animal estrogens. Certainly not thousands of times less. I've seen at least some people suggest that they are more estrogenic than animal or human estrogen.

The chart on page 2 of this document suggests that soy has estrogenic activity that's hundreds of millions times more than milk-

https://www.iowabeefcenter.org/information/IBC48.pdf

If you're interested there's plenty of research on it. A search on the topic will give you lots to explore..
Couple of examples :

Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows - PubMed

The present data on men and children indicate that estrogens in milk were absorbed, and gonadotropin secretion was suppressed, followed by a decrease in testosterone secretion. Sexual maturation of prepubertal children could be affected by the ordinary intake of cow milk.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Does milk intake promote prostate cancer initiation or progression via effects on insulin-like growth factors (IGFs)? A systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed

IGF-I is a potential mechanism underlying the observed associations between milk intake and prostate cancer risk.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Milk Consumption and Prostate Cancer: A Systematic Review

Prostate cancer is the third most common cancer in men globally, and the most common cancer among men in the United States. Dietary choices may play an important role in developing prostate cancer; in particular, a higher dairy product intake has been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The first study is a meal challenge study. From my research on iron, I know that meal change studies often don't reflect longer term changes of the organism. For example, Vitamin C meal challenges with radiolabeled iron show it increases absorption of a single meal. But I found a longer term study (with subjects going both 8 and 16 weeks) that were instructed to take Vitamin C with their two most iron rich meals of the day. Ferritin numbers stayed the same in some, went up in others, and went dramatically down in a few subjects. So, meal challenges don't say a lot about long term effects.

The second study isn't about estrogen in milk.

The third is a meta-analysis, using several long term studies lasting several years (some decades), but all of them rely on dietary recall questionnaires or interviews. Such data is notoriously unreliable. More so when you find out that they usually only as for dietary recall once every 2-4 years, on average. Do you remember what you had for lunch back on February 17th, 2021? Can you accurately describe the portions? As such, I don't think that study is worth much of anything, as the data gathered in each study isn't reliable in any way, shape or form.

Like I said in my original post that you responded to :

This means not eating high PUFA oils, and especially cooking with them. Or cooking anything that contains high PUFA, because PUFA itself becomes even more toxic than it already is when it is heated/cooked at high temperatures. The point is that is very easy to do on a plant based diet. Just avoid the oils, and some nuts and seeds. On the other hand cooked fish, cooked seafood, cooked chicken, cooked eggs, cooked pork, and so forth all have potential exacerbated issues due to cooking of the PUFA. I only cook with coconut oil, and I don't cook and eat foods that contain significant amounts of PUFA unless I can't avoid it.

I never disagreed with that. But when it comes to PUFA and estrogens in foods, the biggest offenders are plant foods. So the idea of going vegan to "lower" them doesn't make sense, as most people who go vegan will end up eating higher amounts of both (especially with all the vegan foods made from soy, which have a hefty dose of both PUFA and Estrogen)

There is no evidence that i've seen that adding gelatin somehow "balances out" the inflamatory aminos. Gelatin on it's own is great because it lacks those aminos, and if contributing to a significant proportion of the total daily protein amount then that would lower the overall consumption of other more inflammatory proteins as a percentage of the total. However it doesn't work that you eat the same amount of methionine, tryptophan etc as you otherwise would, and then add gelatin on top and that somehow blunts the effect of those inflammatory aminos (if you've seen some research supporting this i'd be interested to see it). Those aminos still have to come down in consumption for the benefit to occur, and to avoid the detriment they bring.

I have a thread on it-

Are Humans (and all Vertebrates) running a chronic, lifetime Glycine Deficient?

This is sort of a follow up to the post I did about an experimental Methionine Deficient diet. https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methionine-deficient-diet-induces-rapid-weight-fat-loss-in-mice-who-ate-more-and-moved-less.45256/ I happened to be looking at the Glycine/Methionine Ratio...

raypeatforum.com

Also, what do you mean "doesn't work?" What effect of those aminos are you referring to?

 

[Ritchie]

Why did you lol? It's true. In fact, that's a conservative estimate.

This USDA list shows soy as having quite high isoflavone levels, with milk returning a zero value-

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/80400525/Data/isoflav/Isoflav_R2.pdf

According to that chart it shows soy milk having around 7mg isoflavones per 100gms.. Obviously that's not "10,000 times" the estrogen of any animal food as you said. I'd also just mentioned that isoflavones are a fraction of the strength of mammalian estrogen - hence the lol at the dramatism.

Don't know why we're even debating soy, i don't eat it and wouldn't look at it as healthy because of the high PUFA content.

Also, I don't know if plant estrogens are "less active" than animal estrogens. Certainly not thousands of times less. I've seen at least some people suggest that they are more estrogenic than animal or human estrogen.

The chart on page 2 of this document suggests that soy has estrogenic activity that's hundreds of millions times more than milk-

https://www.iowabeefcenter.org/information/IBC48.pdf

Haha bro you're referencing Iowa Beef Centre as your resource (you don't think they have a vested financial interest in painting a negative picture of soy?) and in the same sentence saying you have "seen at least some people suggest".. Let's stick to facts that have some bio-chemical research and grounding to them. I've also heard some people suggest PUFA's are healthy as cooking oils, do you want me to share a link from "the sunflower oil centre" to back up the argument?

Look into it if you're actually interested, isoflavones have a fraction of the potency of mammalian estrogens.. The link you posted above states it matter of factly in the opening sentence : "Isoflavones, a subclass of flavonoids, have weak estrogenic, as well as other biological properties that may contribute to the reduction of the risk of some chronic diseases."
I've seen some biochemical research suggest it is up to 1:40,000 times weaker in ratio to mammalian estrogen, but the consenses seems to be between 1:1000 - 1:10,000. The proposed mechanism in which soy consumption, and isoflavones, has been found to help with breast and prostate cancer among other positive health observations is via isoflavone attachment to the receptors, thereby blocking the mammalian estrogen from being absorbed and the weaker phyto estrogen is used, in turn significantly lowering estrogen levels in the system.

The second study isn't about estrogen in milk.

The proposed mechanism is the igf-1 in milk causing the cancer. Could be a combo of the estrogen and igf-1, but regardless supports my opening post you replied to.

Also, what do you mean "doesn't work?" What effect of those aminos are you referring to?

I'm saying you can't just eat heaps of gelatin on top of other proteins like steak and chicken that are high in methionine, tryptophan and so forth thinking that the gelatin will somehow protect against the negative impacts of the inflammatory aminos - it doesn't work that way. Gelatin is argued by Peat to be a safe protein source due to it being naturally low in those inflammatory aminos, and of course high in glycine and other anti inflammatory aminos. Hence if it makes up a significant proportion of food intake and protein consumption that is good - that in turn will lower the need to eat more muscle meat etc as an overall percentage of food intake while still getting the protein you want.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Haha bro you're referencing Iowa Beef Centre as your resource (you don't think they have a vested financial interest in painting a negative picture of soy?)

I think you should at least post a resource in this regard before laughing at mine.

And they weren't painting it as a negative, but using it as a comparison. It even states-

Units are nanograms of estrone plus estradiol for animal products and isoflavones for plant products per 500 grams of food

So by weight, if soy has hundreds of millions times more isoflavones than milk has estrone and estradiol, and the isoflavones have 10,000 times less estrogenic activity, soy is still a bigger issue. And they list the studies as a source, one of which I linked above.

and in the same sentence saying you have "seen at least some people suggest".. Let's stick to facts that have some bio-chemical research and grounding to them.

Then shouldn't you post your sources that you are basing your facts on?

I'm saying you can't just eat heaps of gelatin on top of other proteins like steak and chicken that are high in methionine, tryptophan and so forth thinking that the gelatin will somehow protect against the negative impacts of the inflammatory aminos - it doesn't work that way.

Again.... what "doesn't work that way?" If anything, this was a more traditional diet.... eating gelatious cuts of meat and soups and stews made from bones with things like steak. Why wouldn't adding gelatin to a normal diet with meat intake around 0.5-1 pound a day not "work?" What issue are you specifically referring to?

 

[Ritchie]

Again.... what "doesn't work that way?" If anything, this was a more traditional diet.... eating gelatious cuts of meat and soups and stews made from bones with things like steak. Why wouldn't adding gelatin to a normal diet with meat intake around 0.5-1 pound a day not "work?" What issue are you specifically referring to?

Gelatin doesn't alleviate the toxic effects of high consumption of methionine, tryptophan, cysteine. It's a good substitute for high inflammatory amino acid protein sources, not a cure. So to use an example - if you're eating 300 grams of muscle meat a day, adding gelatin on top of that won't change the negative impact of eating 300 grams of muscle meat a day. However, if you then start eating 100 grams of muscle meat and the equivalent of 200 grams of gelatin then that is beneficial relative to before, because you're now eating less of the inflammatory aminos (methionine, tryptophan etc) but getting the same amount of protein, all the while getting more anti-inflammatory aminos.

But ideally you don't want to be eating much muscle meat at all, where as gelatin is far safer (apart from the potential bone leeching/heavy metal issues I mentioned originally and Peat has spoken alot about).. Hence why I said that gelatin is a bit of a biohack of animal foods, because for the most part it's a good protein source without all the issues. Of course that depends as well on how much protein your body actually needs and how much you are consuming. With gelatin the dose can make the poison and you certainly don't want to over do it because more isn't necessarily better - some go really hard with the powder and it can be detrimental. If you are training, lifting weights etc you'll need more than someone who is sedentary or just goes for walks and the like.
As far as the issues with methionine, tryptophan, cysteine you're surely aware of that.

 

[Peatful]

From Josh Rubin:

Can you heal a thyroid issue on a Vegan Diet?



The answer is no and here is why...


Fat-soluble vitamin deficiency: The only way to get fat-soluble vitamins is from animal tissue. Yes, some of them can be found in certain seeds, etc and received from the sun, but when it comes to retinol (not beta carotene), it is impossible to get.

Retinol is required for the activation of thyroid hormone receptors. Studies have shown, retinol deficiency interferes upstream, at the pituitary, thus increasing pituitary synthesis and secretion of TSH. Retinol has shown to have a positive impact on thyroid function and gland size through reducing TSH levels, and supporting thyroid hormone conversion.

Transthyretin (TTR), is a transport protein that binds both thyroid hormone (T4) and retinol. The major site is in the liver, where most thyroid hormone is converted. Essentially, TTR’s function is to transport retinol from hepatic stores to target tissues. When the metabolism is not receiving enough from nutrition, TTR gets loaded with T4 and NO retinol, which triggers oxidative stress and results in the uptick of cholesterol. Retinol is found in fatty fish (salmon, mackerel, herring, sardines), eggs, dairy and organ meats.

Mineral Deficiency: One mineral almost impossible to replenish without the consumption of animal protein is COPPER! Studies have shown that the T3 and T4 levels of thyroid hormones are closely linked to copper levels. When blood copper levels are low, these thyroid hormone levels fall.

Why? Ceruloplasmin (Cp) is a huge stimulator of TRH! Cp is needed to make TRH (Satwika et al. 2015), required to convert T4 to T3 (Elson Haas MD) and necessary for important enzyme: thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and Dual Oxidase Enzyme (DUOX). Copper can be found in shellfish and organ meats.

The other argument will be that vegans receive plant iron sources, however, these are less readily absorbed as they are non-heme. Over 95% of iron in humans is heme, which is found in animal flesh, ie. meats, poultry and seafood. We have a recycling system (Reticuloendothelial System) driven by copper rich enzymes, which recycles up to 24mg a day.

 

[Peatness]

The thing is that unless there’s a peer reviewed scientific study for every claim you make they won’t accept a single statement.

Just on this point alone see this study

Dozens of Scientific Journals Offered Her a Job. But She Didn't Exist

A new “sting operation” study exposes the problem with sham science publications

time.com

 

[Sefton10]

From Josh Rubin:

Can you heal a thyroid issue on a Vegan Diet?



The answer is no and here is why...


Fat-soluble vitamin deficiency: The only way to get fat-soluble vitamins is from animal tissue. Yes, some of them can be found in certain seeds, etc and received from the sun, but when it comes to retinol (not beta carotene), it is impossible to get.

Retinol is required for the activation of thyroid hormone receptors. Studies have shown, retinol deficiency interferes upstream, at the pituitary, thus increasing pituitary synthesis and secretion of TSH. Retinol has shown to have a positive impact on thyroid function and gland size through reducing TSH levels, and supporting thyroid hormone conversion.

Transthyretin (TTR), is a transport protein that binds both thyroid hormone (T4) and retinol. The major site is in the liver, where most thyroid hormone is converted. Essentially, TTR’s function is to transport retinol from hepatic stores to target tissues. When the metabolism is not receiving enough from nutrition, TTR gets loaded with T4 and NO retinol, which triggers oxidative stress and results in the uptick of cholesterol. Retinol is found in fatty fish (salmon, mackerel, herring, sardines), eggs, dairy and organ meats.

Mineral Deficiency: One mineral almost impossible to replenish without the consumption of animal protein is COPPER! Studies have shown that the T3 and T4 levels of thyroid hormones are closely linked to copper levels. When blood copper levels are low, these thyroid hormone levels fall.

Why? Ceruloplasmin (Cp) is a huge stimulator of TRH! Cp is needed to make TRH (Satwika et al. 2015), required to convert T4 to T3 (Elson Haas MD) and necessary for important enzyme: thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and Dual Oxidase Enzyme (DUOX). Copper can be found in shellfish and organ meats.

The other argument will be that vegans receive plant iron sources, however, these are less readily absorbed as they are non-heme. Over 95% of iron in humans is heme, which is found in animal flesh, ie. meats, poultry and seafood. We have a recycling system (Reticuloendothelial System) driven by copper rich enzymes, which recycles up to 24mg a day.

Obviously no longer strictly vegan, but oysters, egg yolks and occasional liver solve all these issues.

 

[Peatful]

Obviously no longer strictly vegan, but oysters, egg yolks and occasional liver solve all these issues.

You hit all he has noted with those it seems.

 

[SamYo123]

From Josh Rubin:

Can you heal a thyroid issue on a Vegan Diet?



The answer is no and here is why...


Fat-soluble vitamin deficiency: The only way to get fat-soluble vitamins is from animal tissue. Yes, some of them can be found in certain seeds, etc and received from the sun, but when it comes to retinol (not beta carotene), it is impossible to get.

Retinol is required for the activation of thyroid hormone receptors. Studies have shown, retinol deficiency interferes upstream, at the pituitary, thus increasing pituitary synthesis and secretion of TSH. Retinol has shown to have a positive impact on thyroid function and gland size through reducing TSH levels, and supporting thyroid hormone conversion.

Transthyretin (TTR), is a transport protein that binds both thyroid hormone (T4) and retinol. The major site is in the liver, where most thyroid hormone is converted. Essentially, TTR’s function is to transport retinol from hepatic stores to target tissues. When the metabolism is not receiving enough from nutrition, TTR gets loaded with T4 and NO retinol, which triggers oxidative stress and results in the uptick of cholesterol. Retinol is found in fatty fish (salmon, mackerel, herring, sardines), eggs, dairy and organ meats.

Mineral Deficiency: One mineral almost impossible to replenish without the consumption of animal protein is COPPER! Studies have shown that the T3 and T4 levels of thyroid hormones are closely linked to copper levels. When blood copper levels are low, these thyroid hormone levels fall.

Why? Ceruloplasmin (Cp) is a huge stimulator of TRH! Cp is needed to make TRH (Satwika et al. 2015), required to convert T4 to T3 (Elson Haas MD) and necessary for important enzyme: thyroid peroxidase (TPO) and Dual Oxidase Enzyme (DUOX). Copper can be found in shellfish and organ meats.

The other argument will be that vegans receive plant iron sources, however, these are less readily absorbed as they are non-heme. Over 95% of iron in humans is heme, which is found in animal flesh, ie. meats, poultry and seafood. We have a recycling system (Reticuloendothelial System) driven by copper rich enzymes, which recycles up to 24mg a day.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8NIprK6Fbw

 

[Perry Staltic]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8NIprK6Fbw

Why does the title say sugar damages thyroid when the guy in the video says the opposite?

 

[SamYo123]

Why does the title say sugar damages thyroid when the guy in the video says the opposite?

because its clickbait to confirm peoples bias views about sugar

 

[username]

The reality is if you understand some really basic core metabolic principles, and apply them, a vegan diet is exceptionally healthy. Particularly if supplemented with oysters (which most vegans accept). Where as conversely a diet high in animal products brings so many issues metabolically - all the inflammatory aminos, iron, casomorpins and igf-1, possibly too much protein, preformed vitamin A (depending on your stance on that, the largest thread on this forum seems to support the idea that it isn't good), animal estrogens, high phosphorus, pufa and so forth. All of which are detrimental to thyroid function and metabolism in general. With the exception of gelatin (which could be looked at as a bit of a bio-hack of animal foods, especially in it's powdered form although the leeching of the bones into the gelatin could be potentially of issue).. So a plant based diet, avoiding seed oils, high in energy dense foods and supplemented with some minimal animal products would be hard to argue against. Even if those minimal animal products are removed and replaced with things like well prepared lentils, potatoes, oats, chocolate and coffee, and veges like kale and other leafy greens, mushrooms etc.. Peat has always spoken highly of leafy greens like kale but is also liberally eating broccoli, brussel sprouts, cauliflower etc now as well according to a bunch of recent interviews and email exchanges.

You're also right that those old articles from Peat attacking vegetables are very dated. He has significantly changed his perspective since then, I wouldn't be surprised if he himself is close to vegan now. He strives for no more than 50 grams of protein a day and when you are eating a high caloric plant based diet you will certainly well exceed that with a very good quality amino acid profile.

Eek. I was vegan. and I still live in a primarily vegan community. I was so unwell and I had to change. I am so much healthier now and have for 4 years eaten a diet centered on cow's meat and fruit. The people around me remain dogmatic and are extremely unwell. I don't know how to put it, but even people eating the standard american diet look and behave like much healthier individuals while the people around me keep telling themselves they are well. They are slow, weak, stick figures. I get that this may seem like an exaggeration, but this is my honest to god experience.

 

[Ritchie]

..

 

[Ritchie]

Yeah like I said you have to understand some core basic metabolic principles and apply them, otherwise it certainly can be unhealthy. Not all "plant based" diets are the same, many people go vegan and still have a low sugar, low carb, limit calorie type perspective - not healthy. But the same can be said for meat eating diets if they are full carnivore and keto with no sugar or carbs - might be ok in the beginning but long term they look sickly, stressed and age very quickly. Alot of cortisol and gluconeogenesis aint good. Both ends of the spectrum I guess - add into that a lack of awareness for the issues with PUFA/Cooked PUFA and both will massively hinder thyroid function and metabolism in general. Ironically a standard american diet is probably better than both of those.

 

[Sefton10]

Yeah like I said you have to understand some core basic metabolic principles and apply them, otherwise it certainly can be unhealthy. Not all "plant based" diets are the same, many people go vegan and still have a low sugar, low carb, limit calorie type perspective - not healthy. But the same can be said for meat eating diets if they are full carnivore and keto with no sugar or carbs - might be ok in the beginning but long term they look sickly, stressed and age very quickly. Alot of cortisol and gluconeogenesis aint good. Both ends of the spectrum I guess - add into that a lack of awareness for the issues with PUFA/Cooked PUFA and both will massively hinder thyroid function and metabolism in general. Ironically a standard american diet is probably better than both of those.

What you describe in your posts has been the best approach both theoretically and practically in my experience, and I’ve pretty much tried them all over the years. I get loads of carbs from rice, oats, lentils, fruit etc., with a daily oyster or two and some egg yolks. I eat some liver once a fortnight or so and add a little fat in the form of cocoa butter for the strearic acid too. Obviously it’s not vegan, but I’d say it’s 90% plant based while still covering all my nutrient requirements. Most importantly, I feel very satisfied and energetic eating this way with great satiety between meals. It’s actually pretty much how I used to eat as a kid now I come to think of it. It’s also a very cost effective diet and easy to bulk buy and stock up on good quality organic staples, which shelters you from the inflation stuff. I started growing my own kale to get some greens in as well and make powdered egg shells for a bit of calcium.

 

[SamYo123]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWrJ7lFCMW4

 

[Ritchie]

What you describe in your posts has been the best approach both theoretically and practically in my experience, and I’ve pretty much tried them all over the years. I get loads of carbs from rice, oats, lentils, fruit etc., with a daily oyster or two and some egg yolks. I eat some liver once a fortnight or so and add a little fat in the form of cocoa butter for the strearic acid too. Obviously it’s not vegan, but I’d say it’s 90% plant based while still covering all my nutrient requirements. Most importantly, I feel very satisfied and energetic eating this way with great satiety between meals. It’s actually pretty much how I used to eat as a kid now I come to think of it. It’s also a very cost effective diet and easy to bulk buy and stock up on good quality organic staples, which shelters you from the inflation stuff. I stared growing my own kale to get some greens in as well and make powdered egg shells for a bit of calcium.

Awesome, love it! And glad you've found my posts helpful.. Sounds very similar to the way I eat, and like you i'm feeling the best this way on all levels.

 

[Perry Staltic]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWrJ7lFCMW4

That's a lot of sugar on his cereal. Ugh...

 

[SamYo123]

That's a lot of sugar on his cereal. Ugh...

Explains his high energy

 

[Perry Staltic]

Explains his high energy

High energy is not always a good thing. He's a bit too wired for me