Vegan debate

[Runenight201]

So I’ve gone and done it to myself. Got myself into a debate on Reddit about veganism and I realized how little true scientific knowledge I had on the topic. Most of my inputs were my own personal experience and that is easily dismissed by anyone else as unscientific.

So I’m of the belief that to have a properly functioning human body you need animal products in some fashion. Especially to avoid things like cognitive decline, mental illness, and have good reproductive health. Does anyone have some solid scientific evidence in favor of animal consumption? Im talking peer-reviewed, edited, in journals, etc… that’s the only thing these types want, everything else gets dismissed and it’s so easy for them to post that Nurse’s survey and say, look! Vegans produces healthier human beings. They will go so far as to say that there is no healthy animal product consumption.

Yea…I should just walk away right? But what happens if a friend or loved one wants to go vegan and then these people convince them. I don’t want them to degenerate themselves following some moral idealists. It’d be nice to have an arsenal of weapons that I can drop on them anytime they try to dismiss the, no animal consumption is healthy and everyone can be a healthy vegan.

Side point I think some people actually may be fine on vegan diets, they aren’t as sensitive to foods as the majority of us here are (let’s be honest, most of us had our functioning messed up in some capacity to bring us here in the first place), but I myself have begun going mentally ill from a poor diet, so I really want to get this right to help others from a similar fate, or perhaps reverse illness? To be fair there is plenty of trash food out on our market today, including animal products, that should have no business going into people’s bodies.

So yea, any help appreciated. Also I think y’all should eat more plants, I will give the vegans that much!

 

[Peatful]

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[ThinPicking]

See @haidut recent thread on protein assimilation.

Stay away from the reddit hive mind if you can.

 

[Peatness]

What joy. The formatting on Rays website has been fixed!

 

[Runenight201]

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

This attack on plants is hard to accept now that Ray himself eats vegetables.

 

[Runenight201]

See @haidut recent thread on protein assimilation.

Stay away from the reddit hive mind if you can.

Will search for it. Ha I really should but Im addicted. Maybe if I had some real community in my life I’d be able to.

 

[Peatful]

This attack on plants is hard to accept now that Ray himself eats vegetables.

Well you are not going to win anyone over on Reddit anyway. Especially a vegan.

I too was surprised by Peat eating the old cauliflower.
But- we don’t know the fullness of his story.

His mind is sharp- but the mechanics of his mouth sound off. Like dentures dont fit. Teeth were pulled. Or worse.

Root veggies are my jam.
Others not so much.

Best.

 

[Runenight201]

Well you are not going to win anyone over on Reddit anyway. Especially a vegan.

I too was surprised by Peat eating the old cauliflower.
But- we don’t know the fullness of his story.

His mind is sharp- but the mechanics of his mouth sound off. Like dentures dont fit. Teeth were pulled. Or worse.

Root veggies are my jam.
Others not so much.

Best.

Lol you’re most likely right but there’s value in the conflict. I can grow stronger in my own positions and be in a psychologically rooted knowledge base that can defeat any ideological bs that gets thrown my way. Plus I can then educate others on how to properly eat if they start running into issues and be a source of credibility.

Im more of a peppers and tomatoes guy, but I just looked it up they are both fruits lmao so maybe the secret is in the salted cooked fruits

I will be doing peas and corn with chicken and eggs tn tho so we’ll see how that goes.

 

[Ritchie]

The reality is if you understand some really basic core metabolic principles, and apply them, a vegan diet is exceptionally healthy. Particularly if supplemented with oysters (which most vegans accept). Where as conversely a diet high in animal products brings so many issues metabolically - all the inflammatory aminos, iron, casomorpins and igf-1, possibly too much protein, preformed vitamin A (depending on your stance on that, the largest thread on this forum seems to support the idea that it isn't good), animal estrogens, high phosphorus, pufa and so forth. All of which are detrimental to thyroid function and metabolism in general. With the exception of gelatin (which could be looked at as a bit of a bio-hack of animal foods, especially in it's powdered form although the leeching of the bones into the gelatin could be potentially of issue).. So a plant based diet, avoiding seed oils, high in energy dense foods and supplemented with some minimal animal products would be hard to argue against. Even if those minimal animal products are removed and replaced with things like well prepared lentils, potatoes, oats, chocolate and coffee, and veges like kale and other leafy greens, mushrooms etc.. Peat has always spoken highly of leafy greens like kale but is also liberally eating broccoli, brussel sprouts, cauliflower etc now as well according to a bunch of recent interviews and email exchanges.

You're also right that those old articles from Peat attacking vegetables are very dated. He has significantly changed his perspective since then, I wouldn't be surprised if he himself is close to vegan now. He strives for no more than 50 grams of protein a day and when you are eating a high caloric plant based diet you will certainly well exceed that with a very good quality amino acid profile.

 

[Runenight201]

I believe in the power of plants. I ate corn and peas today with salted butter and felt a warmth in my body that I haven’t felt in a long time. Calmed down my OCD/paranoid brain. Tomorrow I will be subsisting on corn, peas, tomatoes, jalapeños, eggs, and chicken and see how that fares for me.

Industrial feedlot meat is no doubt very problematic, however animals fed a good diet and raised healthily i believe are very healthy to consume. I believe that the health states one is able to reach with an omnivorous diet exceeds that which one is able to reach on purely a vegan or purely a carnivorous one. That being said I’d rather be vegan than carnivore, but given the choice, I choose to be an omnivore, as designed by my evolutionary biology.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I believe in the power of plants. I ate corn and peas today with salted butter and felt a warmth in my body that I haven’t felt in a long time. Calmed down my OCD/paranoid brain. Tomorrow I will be subsisting on corn, peas, tomatoes, jalapeños, eggs, and chicken and see how that fares for me.

Have you tried onions yet? You can saute in a saturated oil, or even just use water, and then mix with egg and peppers. Yum. Good for the gut microbiome.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Where as conversely a diet high in animal products brings so many issues metabolically - all the inflammatory aminos, iron, casomorpins and igf-1, possibly too much protein, preformed vitamin A (depending on your stance on that, the largest thread on this forum seems to support the idea that it isn't good), animal estrogens, high phosphorus, pufa and so forth.

It's pretty ridiculous to include PUFA in that list, as the highest sources are plant based, in soy and corn oil. Even when land based animals have a high amount of PUFA in their fat stores, like pigs and chickens, its from plant based feed that contains high amounts of PUFA, usually from soy. And even then, pig and chicken fat is more comparable to something like canola oil.

I also think its disingenuous to list "animal estrogens." Sure, you can find small amounts in milk, but it's not significant, and offset by other beneficial hormones in greater amounts, like thyroid. Far and away, the biggest sources of estrogen in human diet comes from plants, thanks to soy, flax, and hops, with soy being the biggest source in vegan, vegetarian, and the Standard American Diet of the 2000s. One serving of soy will have more estrogen than an average milk drinker would get in an entire month from milk, maybe an entire year.

Sure, you can design a vegan diet that avoids soy and seed oils, but you can also do that with an omnivorous diet, and it's even easier to do so. For example, vegan fat options might be limited to things like coconut oil and cacao butter, but omnivores can also use butter, tallow, cream, and even lard if you know how the pigs were raised, in addition to vegetarian sources mentioned.

And there are plenty of plants that have high iron, inflammatory aminos, and phosphorus to calcium ratio. So going vegan doesn't really solve any of the issues you listed. It still has to be well designed, and that will work just as well or better on an omnivorous diet.

 

[Ritchie]

I also think its disingenuous to list "animal estrogens."

Are you aware of the bio-chemical research into this? Plant derived estrogens, or isoflavones, are of very low potency - estimated to be at between 1:1000 and
1:10 000 of the activity of mammalian estradiol itself. So you'd have to eat a ton of them to get anywhere near the estrogenic activity you'd get from an animal source. Having said that I'm not advocating for soy, flax or hops.

One serving of soy will have more estrogen than an average milk drinker would get in an entire month from milk, maybe an entire year.

See above.

It's pretty ridiculous to include PUFA in that list

Fish and seafood are animal products, not sure why it would be ridiculous to mention PUFA as an issue with animal products. They obviously contain the most amount of PUFA, however chicken, pork, grain fed red meat, to some degree grass fed red meat, eggs, full cream milk all contain significant PUFA levels. Peat has spoken about this alot, and uses it as his rationale for drinking skim milk and limiting egg, chicken, pork consumption.

pig and chicken fat is more comparable to something like canola oil.

You may want to revisit that. Chicken is very high in PUFA. I wouldn't be eating canola oil or Pork either.

the highest sources are plant based, in soy and corn oil.

I did mention that a healthy plant based diet would avoid such oils.

vegan fat options might be limited to things like coconut oil and cacao butter

Add to that olive oil, avocados, macadamias.. Peat and Roddy have switched to using olive oil in their carrot salads daily... But yes coconut oil is the most saturated fat you can get. Cacao butter is great too.

And there are plenty of plants that have high iron, inflammatory aminos, and phosphorus to calcium ratio

Again, you may want to look into the difference in potency and affect between heme iron (which is the animal form of iron) and non-heme (plant derived form of iron which has a fraction of the potency).. Also not sure how much you have actually looked into the amino acid profile of animal foods compared to plant, but animal proteins are far higher in methionine, tryptophan and cysteine. This is not controversial. Same goes for phosphorus in red and white meats - extremely high. Legumes have a bit of phosphorus also but lag behind the animal sources. For example 200 grams of chicken has double the amount of phosphorus as a cup of lentils. Chicken, Pork, Liver, Seafood, Beef, Dairy (although milk has the calcium to balance it) are all the highest sources of phosphorus food wise, grains and legumes etc come lower down the scale.

 

[Adf]

There are positives and negatives to all types of foods for various reasons. Many meats are bad because of the utterly horrific environment the animal lived in, and the foods (if you can call it that) that they are fed. Yet there are many great sources of farm bred animal meats that are definitely healthy to eat.

On the flip side, many people don't necessarily need meat to be healthy. One big issue with veganism (as a diet, not the mentality) is, it's MUCH easier to accidentally eat chemically poisoned foods, even when you're looking out for it. This is an issue for omnivores too, you still need to find the vegetables with least amount of chemicals, but if your diet is nothing but plants, you're more likely to get those toxic chemicals. Not only do you have to solve the problem of finding quality foods, but you need to make sure you're not deficient in vitamins and minerals (it's definitely doable on a vegan diet).

Veganism to combat animal cruelty is a great cause in my opinion, because there are millions upon millions of poor animals being tortured. In my eyes, it's as sad as the millions of tortured men, women and children that are trafficked around the world. I don't see a cow or a pig as less than, than a cute little pet dog, or a child. It's our society that shapes our values, and most western civilized families aren't taught to feel anything for the food they eat.

As a child, did you parents ever teach you that the food you ate, as you ate it was once a cute little animal as cute as a dog? Nope probably not. Mine didn't either. When tribal humans hunted and ate animals, many tribes honored them. They saw hunting and gathering as borrowing from the Earth and knew that we would return what we borrowed someday. Every life taken was respected. Nowadays we don't have any relationship with what we eat. Meat to most people is not even thought of as once living with feelings and emotions, It's just food on a table.

Saying all that, I know full well I am not you. My beliefs are not your beliefs, my values are not your values. I am not better or worse than you, as you are not better or worse than me. We are simply different people. I don't think anyone should ever have the mentality that a diet is superior for health benefits. There is no such thing as the glove that fits all hands, and there is no such thing as the diet that fits all people.

There's millions, potentially an infinite number of bodily mechanisms that even our smartest nutritional scientists don't know about yet. I say potentially infinite because of nature's amazing ability to adapt and evolve. There could be a million reasons why vegetables are worse than meat, or meat is worse than vegetables that we just don't know about yet. The things we DO know of that is harmful are less about WHAT it is we eat, and more about the QUALITY of what we eat. Is the food clean? Is the plant sprayed with poison? Was the animal fed garbage and lived in terror?

I would refrain from arguing with anyone who is 100% for one side, especially anyone who does not respect the information available on all sides. Many vegans are like this but it's not just vegans. Many of them will never accept your argument even if you throw peer reviewed studies in their face, because they close their minds off to anything that challenges their belief.

But also, those peer reviewed studies you have might be proven wrong in 20 years time anyway when scientists discover new bodily mechanisms we never knew of before. Yes they're very important information to guide us on hopefully the correct path, but newer scientific discoveries will always come to overwrite present day science eventually.

So if you got this far you're probably wondering wtf is my point? Good, I'm glad. I don't have much of a point I just wanted to join in the conversation :)

 

[ursidae]

It's pretty ridiculous to include PUFA in that list, as the highest sources are plant based, in soy and corn oil. Even when land based animals have a high amount of PUFA in their fat stores, like pigs and chickens, its from plant based feed that contains high amounts of PUFA, usually from soy. And even then, pig and chicken fat is more comparable to something like canola oil.

I also think its disingenuous to list "animal estrogens." Sure, you can find small amounts in milk, but it's not significant, and offset by other beneficial hormones in greater amounts, like thyroid. Far and away, the biggest sources of estrogen in human diet comes from plants, thanks to soy, flax, and hops, with soy being the biggest source in vegan, vegetarian, and the Standard American Diet of the 2000s. One serving of soy will have more estrogen than an average milk drinker would get in an entire month from milk, maybe an entire year.

Sure, you can design a vegan diet that avoids soy and seed oils, but you can also do that with an omnivorous diet, and it's even easier to do so. For example, vegan fat options might be limited to things like coconut oil and cacao butter, but omnivores can also use butter, tallow, cream, and even lard if you know how the pigs were raised, in addition to vegetarian sources mentioned.

And there are plenty of plants that have high iron, inflammatory aminos, and phosphorus to calcium ratio. So going vegan doesn't really solve any of the issues you listed. It still has to be well designed, and that will work just as well or better on an omnivorous diet.

from my personal experience the estrogenic effects of consuming dairy fat are comparable to that of drinking soy milk. I've tried both and both induce unpleasant estrogenic side effects such as cystic acne on the lower jaw, sore puffy breasts, headaches, and severe PMS

 

[Dainis Spainis]

I am mostly sitting on carnivore+fruits in summer and keto in winter. In spring I am doing vegan (low carb, low calorie). On all diets I am feeling great. No diet works for me longterm.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Are you aware of the bio-chemical research into this? Plant derived estrogens, or isoflavones, are of very low potency - estimated to be at between 1:1000 and
1:10 000 of the activity of mammalian estradiol itself. So you'd have to eat a ton of them to get anywhere near the estrogenic activity you'd get from an animal source. Having said that I'm not advocating for soy, flax or hops.

Well, Soy has over 10,000 times the estogen of any animal food, so even if true, soy and flax are still far worse.

I'm not aware of any good research implicating things like meat and milk to estrogenic conditions (like gynocomastia), so if you have any studies, please share. I also am not aware of comparing foods like meat and milk to soy for estrogenic effects, so again, please share any you have.

Fish and seafood are animal products, not sure why it would be ridiculous to mention PUFA as an issue with animal products.

It's ridiculous because it's even more an issue with plant products. Just going "vegan" doesn't limit your potential exposure to PUFA, and in general is going to INCREASE it.

Not only that, the higher unsaturation content of most plant based fats was a selling point for vegan and vegetarian diets in the first place.

They obviously contain the most amount of PUFA, however chicken, pork, grain fed red meat, to some degree grass fed red meat, eggs, full cream milk all contain significant PUFA levels.

True on chicken, pork and eggs (which might be anywhere from 15-30%), flat out wrong on the others. Grain and grass fed beef, butter and cream all have about 3-4% PUFA or lower.

Peat has spoken about this alot, and uses it as his rationale for drinking skim milk and limiting egg, chicken, pork consumption.

His rationale for drinking low fat (not skim) milk is to limit fat in general, as all natural fats (even coconut oil) have some PUFA. Cows have rumens which hydrogenate unsaturated fats, so beef and dairy are some of the best sources of fat, and Peat has mentioned this himself several times.

You may want to revisit that. Chicken is very high in PUFA. I wouldn't be eating canola oil or Pork either.

If by "very high" you mean about 15-30%, then I'd agree. Still, they are nowhere near the 60-70% that corn and soybean oil are.

I did mention that a healthy plant based diet would avoid such oils.

And I agreed. I would think you would have to agree that a healthy omnivorous diet would also avoid such oils. Even a carnivore or low carb diet could avoid such oils. So while it can be done, it's not even remotely exclusive to a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Add to that olive oil, avocados, macadamias.. Peat and Roddy have switched to using olive oil in their carrot salads daily... But yes coconut oil is the most saturated fat you can get. Cacao butter is great too.

Peat isn't a fan of avocados, and I am not aware of any changes in that regard. I've never heard them mention macadamias or macadamia oil. Sure, Roddy (and maybe Peat) use a little bit of Olive Oil on the carrot salad, but Roddy even clarified in the next interview that it's just a tiny amount with the salad only. He is not cooking with it.

All those three oils you mentioned are very high in MUFA, which people attempting to lose weight may wish to avoid.

Again, you may want to look into the difference in potency and affect between heme iron (which is the animal form of iron) and non-heme (plant derived form of iron which has a fraction of the potency)..

I am well aware of the differences between both heme and non-heme iron, and the differences in absorption rates (not potency). Even absorption rates vary with a number of factors. But I don't really think the natural iron in meat or plants like spinach is worst form that humans consume. That would go to supplemental forms added to foods and taken as vitamins, like ferrous sulfate. You can even extract it from foods with simple household items-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHqN-Be5nlU&t=4s


Also, both eggs and dairy have lactoferrin and other iron binding compounds that are extremely useful if trying to lower iron and ferritin levels. Both were very useful in Dr. Facchini's proven iron lowering diet-

A low-iron-available, polyphenol-enriched, carbohydrate-restricted diet to slow progression of diabetic nephropathy - PubMed

Diabetic nephropathy has become the leading cause of uremia. Several lines of evidence suggest dietary factors other than protein intake have a substantial role in the progression of diabetic nephropathy to end-stage renal disease. The present investigation was initiated to evaluate whether a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As someone who personally has had high ferritin and lowered it through phlebotomy and other methods, I don't even think giving up red meat is necessary. Going vegan would also eliminate the foods highest in lactoferrin, milk and eggs, and while a vegan diet could work, even a vegetarian diet including those two foods would be superior.

Also not sure how much you have actually looked into the amino acid profile of animal foods compared to plant, but animal proteins are far higher in methionine, tryptophan and cysteine. This is not controversial. Same goes for phosphorus in red and white meats - extremely high.

They do tend to have a higher ratio, yes. Still, I prefer to add in extra calcium and gelatin/glycine, rather than ban a whole bunch of delicious and nutritious foods from my diet. To each his own.

Legumes have a bit of phosphorus also but lag behind the animal sources. For example 200 grams of chicken has double the amount of phosphorus as a cup of lentils.

Yeah, but does a cup of lentils compare calorie wise to that same amount of chicken? Or protein wise?

Chicken, Pork, Liver, Seafood, Beef, Dairy (although milk has the calcium to balance it) are all the highest sources of phosphorus food wise, grains and legumes etc come lower down the scale.

Dairy obviously doesn't have a high phosphorous to calcium ratio, and it's the ratio that's important. Grains and legumes are much higher in the ratio. Still, all those foods can be balanced out with extra calcium.

 

[tankasnowgod]

So I’m of the belief that to have a properly functioning human body you need animal products in some fashion. Especially to avoid things like cognitive decline, mental illness, and have good reproductive health. Does anyone have some solid scientific evidence in favor of animal consumption?

This is why Lierre Keith wrote "The Vegetarian Myth." She cites several studies in that book, and you can find several on this forum by searching.

Veganism is relatively new phenomenon (I hadn't even heard the term before the 90s), and most long term vegans (20 years or more) often suffer from a number a maladies at an early age, like low muscle tone (like Dr. Geiger), dementia, and cancer (Steve Jobs, Adam Yauch of the Beastie Boys). If men like these with financial resources to find the best vegan options and even hire personal nutritionists and chefs can't make the diet work long term, what hope is there for the common man?

We've got lots of evidence of omnivores (including vegetarians that eat milk and eggs) can live healthy lives into their 80s and 90s and beyond, both from simple observation and from longer term observational studies. Where is the evidence of the 30-40-50 year vegans living into their 80s and 90s (outside of Dr. McDougall)? Truth is, the burden of proof really falls on vegans to prove that their new (introduced within the last 50 years) and novel diet is better for humans than an omnivorous or vegetarian diet, which has been eaten for centuries. Other than use as a short term intervention diet, they really haven't produced any.

But good luck arguing with them, especially on Reddit.

 

[Runenight201]

This is why Lierre Keith wrote "The Vegetarian Myth." She cites several studies in that book, and you can find several on this forum by searching.

Veganism is relatively new phenomenon (I hadn't even heard the term before the 90s), and most long term vegans (20 years or more) often suffer from a number a maladies at an early age, like low muscle tone (like Dr. Geiger), dementia, and cancer (Steve Jobs, Adam Yauch of the Beastie Boys). If men like these with financial resources to find the best vegan options and even hire personal nutritionists and chefs can't make the diet work long term, what hope is there for the common man?

We've got lots of evidence of omnivores (including vegetarians that eat milk and eggs) can live healthy lives into their 80s and 90s and beyond, both from simple observation and from longer term observational studies. Where is the evidence of the 30-40-50 year vegans living into their 80s and 90s (outside of Dr. McDougall)? Truth is, the burden of proof really falls on vegans to prove that their new (introduced within the last 50 years) and novel diet is better for humans than an omnivorous or vegetarian diet, which has been eaten for centuries. Other than use as a short term intervention diet, they really haven't produced any.

But good luck arguing with them, especially on Reddit.

The thing is that unless there’s a peer reviewed scientific study for every claim you make they won’t accept a single statement. I will have to read the Vegetarian Myth then to arm my arsenal. Science is objective and shouldn’t be subject to dogma. Things like protein and nutrient utilization are real. The issue becomes deeper because then vegans will claim that there’s a way to get the same nutrients but through plants (there’s not a single nutrient you can’t get through a plant *roll eyes*). If I were try to eat the amount of plants required for the same nutrients i’d probably puke it’s just too much plant matter. Where’s the study on that? Especially since many people have compromised digestion it’s literally impossible for me to get the required amounts of amino acids without getting nauseous, bloated, physically ill.

Today I had a soccer game and my performance has been dog ***t for the past couple years, even tho I was a very good player as a kid. Well I said **** it I’m tired of this ***t I’m going to gorge on chicken and I ate more chicken in a sitting then I have in a very long time and I was astonished at how much better my performance was. I actually had fire in me to compete and sprint, my touch on the ball was miles better, my legs were like rods I could bounce and spring off of them, and most importantly, I didn’t feel like I was suffocating to death after fatiguing myself and unable to recover, I’d slow down catch my breath and then hit it again. Even if there’s PUFA in the feedlot chicken protein I ate I had miles better performance then anything a plant could give me.

 

[Ritchie]

Soy has over 10,000 times the estogen of any animal food

Lol

I'm not aware of any good research implicating things like meat and milk to estrogenic conditions (like gynocomastia), so if you have any studies, please share.

If you're interested there's plenty of research on it. A search on the topic will give you lots to explore..
Couple of examples :

Exposure to exogenous estrogen through intake of commercial milk produced from pregnant cows - PubMed

The present data on men and children indicate that estrogens in milk were absorbed, and gonadotropin secretion was suppressed, followed by a decrease in testosterone secretion. Sexual maturation of prepubertal children could be affected by the ordinary intake of cow milk.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Does milk intake promote prostate cancer initiation or progression via effects on insulin-like growth factors (IGFs)? A systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed

IGF-I is a potential mechanism underlying the observed associations between milk intake and prostate cancer risk.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Milk Consumption and Prostate Cancer: A Systematic Review

Prostate cancer is the third most common cancer in men globally, and the most common cancer among men in the United States. Dietary choices may play an important role in developing prostate cancer; in particular, a higher dairy product intake has been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's ridiculous because it's even more an issue with plant products. Just going "vegan" doesn't limit your potential exposure to PUFA, and in general is going to INCREASE it.

Like I said in my original post that you responded to :

if you understand some really basic core metabolic principles, and apply them, a vegan diet is exceptionally healthy.

This means not eating high PUFA oils, and especially cooking with them. Or cooking anything that contains high PUFA, because PUFA itself becomes even more toxic than it already is when it is heated/cooked at high temperatures. The point is that is very easy to do on a plant based diet. Just avoid the oils, and some nuts and seeds. On the other hand cooked fish, cooked seafood, cooked chicken, cooked eggs, cooked pork, and so forth all have potential exacerbated issues due to cooking of the PUFA. I only cook with coconut oil, and I don't cook and eat foods that contain significant amounts of PUFA unless I can't avoid it.

I'm not saying you can't be healthy eating animal products if care is taken.. I'm saying the reality is that a vegan diet grounded in fundamental basic metabolic principles is healthy.

Peat isn't a fan of avocados, and I am not aware of any changes in that regard. I've never heard them mention macadamias or macadamia oil.

Avocados have less PUFA and more vitamin e than olive oil. And they are whole fruits rather than refined oil. It's a simple extropolation. Macadamias are the same. They are basically the same as olive oil. I wouldn't be cooking with any of these oils regardless, as mentioned I think at high temps the only safe oil to use is coconut.

I prefer to add in extra calcium and gelatin/glycine,

There is no evidence that i've seen that adding gelatin somehow "balances out" the inflamatory aminos. Gelatin on it's own is great because it lacks those aminos, and if contributing to a significant proportion of the total daily protein amount then that would lower the overall consumption of other more inflammatory proteins as a percentage of the total. However it doesn't work that you eat the same amount of methionine, tryptophan etc as you otherwise would, and then add gelatin on top and that somehow blunts the effect of those inflammatory aminos (if you've seen some research supporting this i'd be interested to see it). Those aminos still have to come down in consumption for the benefit to occur, and to avoid the detriment they bring.