TRT At 22. At 24 I Started To Replace ALL Other Hormones

[tankasnowgod]

Update: New Guide Here Hormone Replacement Therapy: The Only Guide You Need

Unfortunately I can´t edit my posts

Well, it appears you dropped the dutasteride, so that's a positive.

I'm wary of your use of terms like "ultimate," "complete," and "The Only Guide You Need." Especially when you put disclaimers that directly contradict that later in the guide, and are changing your own regimen.

 

[TheBeard]

?

You made your argument based on a once a month injection assumption.
I would venture to say that less than 1% of people on TRT inject with that frequency, so what are you trying to demonstrate?

 

[X3CyO]

Update: New Guide Here Hormone Replacement Therapy: The Only Guide You Need

Unfortunately I can´t edit my posts

Hope you're doing well,

Do you have any source information regarding the following points?
- "5% of people *naturally fall below the 5th percentile (of hormones)"?
- "your lifestyle has not much to do with why one or more of your hormones is low"
- "some people’s setpoints are naturally low, even when all external conditions are optimal."

Also, what are your reasons for going low carb?

How do you know if the hormone concentrations is what causes the benefit, and not the ability to produce them on your own?
edit: I think i answered my own question: its a question of optimization vs efficacy.

Thanks

 

[thingsvarious]

So hows it going @thingsvarious ? Still doing fine?

Any plans of giving transdermal test a try?

Transdermal test is ***t. Read my guide about male sex hormone treatment.

 

[rei]

You made your argument based on a once a month injection assumption.
I would venture to say that less than 1% of people on TRT inject with that frequency, so what are you trying to demonstrate?

The only person i personally know takes testosterone injections (prescription) once per month. Are you saying most enthusiasts with self-prescribed regimen take more or less? In any case, the frequency had almost nothing to do with the arguments i put forward. It was more about the form and consumption method and their drawbacks.

 

[JudiBlueHen]

idk if its true, but a lot of people hold the view that the body knows whats right and self regulates according to what is supposed to be in order to survive.

I've never taken drugs for periods of time without it changing who I was.

I think it's doable, but theres a lot of information we are missing and are not aware of, or think we know but don't actually. Only time will really tell what is what or close enough to what to tell if it was good or bad.

To test anything on oneself is already extremely risky, and to replace, even more.

Im curious how taking hormones affects the parts of the body which produce them.
Does it cause atrophy?

Are the markers good enough to just match, or are they actually just a correlation to the actual numbers we should be looking at? are we interpreting those numbers in the correct context?


Theres also the matter of testing through a control. You don't have a body double sadly, nor if you removed something would be able to immediately test adding another thing accurately if there is a withdrawal effect.

My main concern is that this leaves you in a fragile position. What happens if something goes wrong? How will you know what to change or do without the aforementioned information?

You'd ideally have to have emergency protocols for your protocols.

Because theres so many outside factors being added to so many inside factors.. how do you know how the inside factors are doing? Do we have technology to safely, accurately and within your budget, see if something is going wrong in time?

What if you're just surface level floating past something that runs much deeper? Considering thats why everyone uses drugs and it typically isn't a same-same fix, I question what that could be. Is it cutting yourself short of learning whats really going on?


Good luck on your experimentation. I hope everything runs well, but your life and future is at risk (as is all of ours with our own experimentation). I just worry that you're walking a tightrope; limited-ish payoff, infinite downside.

will be following.


edit:
Theres also a lot to be said about receptor theory, and the ability for some things to have a more diverse use than as we understand them currently ala peat.

Words of wisdom. Well put.

I want to know about potential atrophy of his endocrine glands. How can he ensure this is not happening? No measurements can show this if the output of the gland is being supplemented.

 

[LLight]

"5% of people *naturally fall below the 5th percentile (of hormones)"?

That's by definition of a percentile. The 5th percentile is the threshold for which 5% of the population has a lower value than that.

 

[TheBeard]

The only person i personally know takes testosterone injections (prescription) once per month. Are you saying most enthusiasts with self-prescribed regimen take more or less? In any case, the frequency had almost nothing to do with the arguments i put forward. It was more about the form and consumption method and their drawbacks.

Frequency has everything to do with your argument, because you are claiming there are side effects associated with this treatment.
Side effects decrease as injection frequency increase.

People on TRT injecting once a week are already considered aliens, twice a week is the norm, everyday is getting more and more widely spread.

So again, almost no one but your friend injects with such a low frequency.

 

[Comstock]

Firstly, I have no idea, but this is just a random theory I have that I like to tell my friends lol, so don't take it too serious. However warning, if I'm correct, it would imply that you are ******* yourself so apologies in advance for any cognitive dissonance my post causes lol

The basis of my theory is that hormones and neurotransmitters are purely messengers - they don't do anything in and of themselves. So, take for example people that use adderall every day - they are artificially flooding their brain with dopamine, and now they get a ton of work done. However, over long periods of time, they tend to be very cranky (because they have over-stressed their body), and if they eventually get off adderall, they are lethargic and depressed for quite a while. Why is this?

Their brain originally being low in dopamine was not a mistake of their brain - the brain surveyed the state of the body, how efficiently it was running / how much energy it could produce, etc., and determined that it SHOULD be running at a low-dopamine state. Maybe, for example, there is a large bacterial load in the body, and much of the body's ATP needs to be devoted to fighting that, so the person should be lethargic and "encouraged" to stay home in bed most of the day. Adderall however, simply imitates the "messenger" dopamine, and tricks the brain into thinking "yup we are all good, run at full capacity."

The same thing is happening when you do TRT - your body wasn't lower in testosterone originally because testosterone is some tricky or expensive molecule to build - your body lowered it intentionally. It surveyed the state of your body and said "nope we can't run that high, we need to devote energy to other things." Being in a high-T state is taxing on the body - it drains tons of energy. That's why only the healthiest, cleanest-liver / digestion / whatever people naturally are extremely high testosterone. When you supplement it, you're kind of missing the point - you're just imitating the messenger molecule and tricking your body.

The hard part about being high testosterone is NOT the testosterone molecule - it's being in a clean / high-energy enough body that can AFFORD to be high testosterone, and your body regulates this naturally. If I'm correct, then the consequences are obvious. Now is it maybe worth it to have fun now and pay later? Maybe yes lol, so I can't knock you. But likely you will have to pay later

I think you're right. And I think this implies that environment is way more important than most people think it is.

Your body is two things, what you put inside of it, and what it assimilates from the outside. Peating is a good way to optimize for the former. Addressing the latter is generally harder, because it usually means moving, or being picky with things it's hard to be picky about (it's easy to be picky with food, but it's hard to be picky with building materials for example).

 

[rei]

Frequency has everything to do with your argument, because you are claiming there are side effects associated with this treatment.
Side effects decrease as injection frequency increase.

People on TRT injecting once a week are already considered aliens, twice a week is the norm, everyday is getting more and more widely spread.

So again, almost no one but your friend injects with such a low frequency.

So you completely ignore the harm every injection has? Even when RP, haidut and danny roddy have spoken about how simply the act of injection can cause neurological problems in said limb ? Doing it daily vs doing it monthly is 30x more risk. And who knows if re-injecting an already injected and in-process-of-healing spot again causes multiplied stress? Daily injection will have you stab already healing tissue over and over again, and we all know what this results in in drug junkies. Collapsed veins that not even those that know best can reliably access. I would think muscle heals slower than veins.

Also where do you even find ampoules or prescriptions for daily injection? This must be some bro science utilizing large jars and not single dose ampules as is when being prescribed a drug?

 

[TheBeard]

So you completely ignore the harm every injection has? Even when RP, haidut and danny roddy have spoken about how simply the act of injection can cause neurological problems in said limb ? Doing it daily vs doing it monthly is 30x more risk. And who knows if re-injecting an already injected and in-process-of-healing spot again causes multiplied stress? Daily injection will have you stab already healing tissue over and over again, and we all know what this results in in drug junkies. Collapsed veins that not even those that know best can reliably access. I would think muscle heals slower than veins.

Also where do you even find ampoules or prescriptions for daily injection? This must be some bro science utilizing large jars and not single dose ampules as is when being prescribed a drug?

Again, I don't know on what planet you live.
Plenty of prescription testosterone comes in 10ml vials.

Only in Europe do you still have the Bayer Testoviron ampules, which are seldom used, mostly only by people without a prescription trying to buy pharm-grade over the internet.

No amount of injections will be more harmful than injecting only once a month.
That is not to say it's ideal, this is why I use transdermal esterless testosterone solution, which is ideal.

 

[rei]

I live with my limited experience in this field. Never seen anything but the standard vials. 10ml seems a much better single dose. Still the injection causes harm. I agree fully that the sane method of use is transdermal, but in addition probably on the balls.

 

[Jing]

I live with my limited experience in this field. Never seen anything but the standard vials. 10ml seems a much better single dose. Still the injection causes harm. I agree fully that the sane method of use is transdermal, but in addition probably on the balls.

That's why you use 30-31 g needles . No pain

 

[X3CyO]

That's by definition of a percentile. The 5th percentile is the threshold for which 5% of the population has a lower value than that.

Ok.

Why do these people have low hormones?
Are these people studied? What's the study’s standard for ”healthy”? We know that’s probably different from peat and his measurements. We could contrast that information.

We have no knowledge given of what is making these peoples numbers different, but it's critical information since i'm guessing this is where @thingsvarious is placing himself as reasoning to why he has to replace everything.

 

[Andman]

Transdermal test is ***t. Read my guide about male sex hormone treatment.

test base in DMSO?

 

[Atman]

My question.[/B] I am new to this group but I have been lurking for some time and found some great info. So I´d be curious what you guys think. As I am in my mid twenties, do you think this is sustainable for decades? Will my healthspan increase or decrease because of it?

If you have any questions hit me up.

Peat's general idea would be to try to correct things as far to the roots of the steroid tree as possible.
So instead of taking highly specialized steroid hormones like testosterone and cortisol, he would advice to improve thyroid function and cholesterol synthesis and maybe a bit of supplemental pregnenolone. This would be far safer and easier than trying to balance some complex cocktail of specialized steroids, of which the requirements vary greatly over time anyway.

You should read some of his best articles or his most popular book: "Generative engery, restoring the wholeness of life" (in particular chapter 8/9).
Much better ROI than spending time on this forum.

Ray Peat - Generative Energy Restoring The Wholeness Of Life : Ray Peat : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[rei]

Again in latest DR&Haidut podcast they talk about the harm of needles. Referencing a study that shows piercing the vein more than twice a month raises LDH levels longterm.

relevant wiki quote

Many cancers can raise LDH levels, so LDH may be used as a tumor marker

Now you can argue that going into the vein is different than going into the muscle but i would argue the muscle suffers much more damage and produces more stress signalling.

 

[Broco6679]

Again in latest DR&Haidut podcast they talk about the harm of needles. Referencing a study that shows piercing the vein more than twice a month raises LDH levels longterm.

relevant wiki quote


Now you can argue that going into the vein is different than going into the muscle but i would argue the muscle suffers much more damage and produces more stress signalling.

Most people inject sub q into fat with a 31g needle which is so small you can hardly even see it.
You cannot extrapolate studies showing harm from using weekly 21g harpoons to the aforementioned scenario.

I used 25g IM injections into my outer quad for my first year on trt and it did cause significant scar tissue / fibrosis, but I've never had that issue with 31g subq.

 

[thingsvarious]

Most people inject sub q into fat with a 31g needle which is so small you can hardly even see it.
You cannot extrapolate studies showing harm from using weekly 21g harpoons to the aforementioned scenario.

I used 25g IM injections into my outer quad for my first year on trt and it did cause significant scar tissue / fibrosis, but I've never had that issue with 31g subq.

I just du s.c. in buttocks area with normal insulin needles. No need to puncture the muscle every time.

 

[b555]

Why are you taking florinef and what is your experience with it?

did you stop taking an ai?