Nandrolone like TRT. DECA lower serotonin and increase Dopamine in rats.

[Gûs80]

Can you be honest with yourself and admit that you need to lower your body fat percentage to 10-12 in order to reduce the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, instead of looking for the perfect steroid?

"em·pa·thy
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

If you don't know me, don't judge me!

Most of the participants in this forum are people with persistent health problems looking for something that can improve their quality of life. This is my case.

In my spiritual belief there are two main forms of charity, material and moral. If you have any experience you would like to share, you are welcome.

- I am 41 years old

- before the age of 2 I had:
- 2 drownings,
- head trauma (fractures in the occipital and temporal region),
- edema of the glottis (with chickenpox medicine)

- at 15 I had a concussion and developed chronic initial insomnia (technically Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome)

- at 28 (after long years of sleeping very little) I developed Chronic Fatigue, that's when I found out I had sleep apnea and hypogonadism. It weighed approx 70kg. It ended my professional career and my first marriage. I never adapted to CPAP, because my sleep is very light and not very restorative.

- because I am not obese, I spent many years going to dozens of sleep and ENT doctors, I had 2 nose surgeries and 1 orthognathic, trying to remove any obstruction that could worsen the apnea. My second foray was to psychologists, psychiatrists and neurologists. I spent all my savings looking for solutions, any improvement in energy and sleep.

- only when I was 35 years old I looked for an endocrinologist and started TRT, as I was afraid of hormones. I started using it with approximately 80kg, thin, with little body fat (1.80m tall). And since my first contact with Testo I had great aromatization, in a few months I developed lipomastia and a lot of subcutaneous fat in the abdominal region, many symptoms of anxiety. I tested trt with 4 different endocrinologists, to see if any would adjust my e2, which reached 149ng. I tested low doses and high doses of test. I felt bad about all of them.

I gave up on trt and returned several times due to side effects.

I tested several alternative protocols, herbs, in addition to hormones recommended by Dr RP (Dhea, Pregnenolone, T3). However, I could never stop having hypogonadism.

Anyone who has hypogonadism knows how shitty it is. For me these days it's almost as bad as being on trt.

I am testing other protocols precisely for this reason, for having hypogonadism and for not having good neuropsychiatric effects with TRT.

I know there are studies showing improvement in hypogonadism after weight loss, but I started thin.

That's why I posted about Dr Mark Gordon, who claims that patients who have suffered trauma or concussions don't adapt to trt until they have their gh levels corrected (trauma causes hypopituitarism). Or Dr Romulo Jogaib who treats dozens of patients who do not adapt to TRT with Deca. In fact, he passes Deca on to his mother, father, mother-in-law and grandmother (who lived up to 105 years using deca).

I'm just a seeker wanting to hear others' experiences with alternatives to TRT.

 

[golder]

Hello.

A little while yet, but I notice a strong decrease in anxiety, I'm zen. I notice a lot less anxiety when talking, a more serene tone of voice, speaking at a slower speed, as if I had just finished meditating. Testo made me anxious, impulsive and a little aggressive.

Lower libido, which I think is positive, since it used to be exaggerated, testo (maybe high e2) made me think about sex 25 hours a day, something terrible for someone who is married like me.

So far no erection problems.

I noticed a slight improvement in forehead wrinkles, which had recently appeared after continued use of testosterone. Deca is pro-collagen and Testo is not.

As I took 15 days of vacation, it is not possible to evaluate changes in the body. I got back to training this week.

My forehead wrinkles have accelerated massively since using test. I don't want to use deca just yet, but is there anything I could use as well as collagen/gelatin to help with this?

 

[Gûs80]

My forehead wrinkles have accelerated massively since using test. I don't want to use deca just yet, but is there anything I could use as well as collagen/gelatin to help with this?

Vitamin C to stimulate collagen synthesis, as proline, glycine and hydroxyproline you're already getting with gelatin.

But using Testo, I believe that this combo can't do anything, at least it didn't work for me.

I used it with 100mg of testosterone enanthate/week and it didn't even hold the wrinkles.

 

[AspiringSage]

Hello.

A little while yet, but I notice a strong decrease in anxiety, I'm zen. I notice a lot less anxiety when talking, a more serene tone of voice, speaking at a slower speed, as if I had just finished meditating. Testo made me anxious, impulsive and a little aggressive.

Lower libido, which I think is positive, since it used to be exaggerated, testo (maybe high e2) made me think about sex 25 hours a day, something terrible for someone who is married like me.

So far no erection problems.

I noticed a slight improvement in forehead wrinkles, which had recently appeared after continued use of testosterone. Deca is pro-collagen and Testo is not.

As I took 15 days of vacation, it is not possible to evaluate changes in the body. I got back to training this week.

When you get a feel for what dose works please consider posting your protocol and dose. As I expressed earlier in the thread, I have concerns about neanderlone mono therapy and would encourage combination therapy with testosterone. But I am also open to considering your lived experience. I am particularly interested in how it makes you feel/nurosteroid implications of long term exposure to 19 nors. So, keep us updated.

 

[Gûs80]

I'll update. My starting dose is 100mg/week. I intend to keep it at low doses. It will not be Deca Only because my Masteron has arrived and I will add 100mg/week (split into 3 applications)

About Deca Only and Deca Base, search for Frank Zane and Robby Robinson. Both are alive, over 70 years old and have never used Testosterone. Several other bodybuilders from the 70's and 80's didn't have contact with testo until after the 90's. Notice how the "Pumping Iron" bodybuilders had a lot of hair, without wrinkles, unlike the bodybuilders from the 90's onwards, when testo became the base, as AI's were already widely available.

In this forum I also read a report of use for more than a decade with many benefits.

From Dr Romulo Jogaib's experience with his patients, we can say that most of the "scientific" claims about nandrolone are wrong. He shows that his patients on Deca Only have a great decline in prolactin and estradiol deficiency within a few months of use, so much so that he even replaces estradiol in some of them (something I don't think is safe. It would be better to just use dhea at doses of 25mg/ day and monitor).

In my opinion Deca Only will only be superior to TRT in men who aromatize in excess (dirty genes: slow maoa, slow comt, mthfr - that is, those who tend to have schizophrenia and bipolarity).


Those who are good estrogen savers will suffer from e2 deficiency. (fast maoa, fast comt). I notice that these tend to have few or no side effects with high doses of caffeine and anabolic hormones. It is these bodybuilders who use liters without any symptoms..

Robby Robinson with 76 years. Never touch Testosterone.

 

[DenizkaRedizka]

"em·pa·thy
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

If you don't know me, don't judge me!

Most of the participants in this forum are people with persistent health problems looking for something that can improve their quality of life. This is my case.

In my spiritual belief there are two main forms of charity, material and moral. If you have any experience you would like to share, you are welcome.

- I am 41 years old

- before the age of 2 I had:
- 2 drownings,
- head trauma (fractures in the occipital and temporal region),
- edema of the glottis (with chickenpox medicine)

- at 15 I had a concussion and developed chronic initial insomnia (technically Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome)

- at 28 (after long years of sleeping very little) I developed Chronic Fatigue, that's when I found out I had sleep apnea and hypogonadism. It weighed approx 70kg. It ended my professional career and my first marriage. I never adapted to CPAP, because my sleep is very light and not very restorative.

- because I am not obese, I spent many years going to dozens of sleep and ENT doctors, I had 2 nose surgeries and 1 orthognathic, trying to remove any obstruction that could worsen the apnea. My second foray was to psychologists, psychiatrists and neurologists. I spent all my savings looking for solutions, any improvement in energy and sleep.

- only when I was 35 years old I looked for an endocrinologist and started TRT, as I was afraid of hormones. I started using it with approximately 80kg, thin, with little body fat (1.80m tall). And since my first contact with Testo I had great aromatization, in a few months I developed lipomastia and a lot of subcutaneous fat in the abdominal region, many symptoms of anxiety. I tested trt with 4 different endocrinologists, to see if any would adjust my e2, which reached 149ng. I tested low doses and high doses of test. I felt bad about all of them.

I gave up on trt and returned several times due to side effects.

I tested several alternative protocols, herbs, in addition to hormones recommended by Dr RP (Dhea, Pregnenolone, T3). However, I could never stop having hypogonadism.

Anyone who has hypogonadism knows how shitty it is. For me these days it's almost as bad as being on trt.

I am testing other protocols precisely for this reason, for having hypogonadism and for not having good neuropsychiatric effects with TRT.

I know there are studies showing improvement in hypogonadism after weight loss, but I started thin.

That's why I posted about Dr Mark Gordon, who claims that patients who have suffered trauma or concussions don't adapt to trt until they have their gh levels corrected (trauma causes hypopituitarism). Or Dr Romulo Jogaib who treats dozens of patients who do not adapt to TRT with Deca. In fact, he passes Deca on to his mother, father, mother-in-law and grandmother (who lived up to 105 years using deca).

I'm just a seeker wanting to hear others' experiences with alternatives to TRT.

I don't understand why you wrote this. Do you want to feel sorry for yourself? I have 2 concussions and thousands of microconcussions from boxing. Insomnia for 4 months in a row, bulimia, orthorexia, lack of libido, painful joints and dozens of other health problems at 19. I'm not against HRT, you stated that you have 25 percent body fat, if you want to reduce aromatization, then you obviously need to reduce the percentage of body fat and switch to non-aromatizing steroids (masteron, propionate, etc.)

 

[Matestube]

I don't understand why you wrote this.

Because your attitude to him was dismissive and non-constructive.
He told you his bodyfat was fine UNTIL he used testosterone, so you don't even seem to understand what he writes indeed.

Please stop with this attitude, we have had lots of nefarious actors recently, way too many new accounts of people either looking for quick fixes in a rude manner or people not actually contributing in a useful manner to conversations.

You seem to have problems of your own that you want resolved with the help of this forum, so remain courteous and constructive.

 

[Matestube]

I'll update. My starting dose is 100mg/week. I intend to keep it at low doses. It will not be Deca Only because my Masteron has arrived and I will add 100mg/week (split into 3 applications)

About Deca Only and Deca Base, search for Frank Zane and Robby Robinson. Both are alive, over 70 years old and have never used Testosterone. Several other bodybuilders from the 70's and 80's didn't have contact with testo until after the 90's. Notice how the "Pumping Iron" bodybuilders had a lot of hair, without wrinkles, unlike the bodybuilders from the 90's onwards, when testo became the base, as AI's were already widely available.

In this forum I also read a report of use for more than a decade with many benefits.

From Dr Romulo Jogaib's experience with his patients, we can say that most of the "scientific" claims about nandrolone are wrong. He shows that his patients on Deca Only have a great decline in prolactin and estradiol deficiency within a few months of use, so much so that he even replaces estradiol in some of them (something I don't think is safe. It would be better to just use dhea at doses of 25mg/ day and monitor).

In my opinion Deca Only will only be superior to TRT in men who aromatize in excess (dirty genes: slow maoa, slow comt, mthfr - that is, those who tend to have schizophrenia and bipolarity).


Those who are good estrogen savers will suffer from e2 deficiency. (fast maoa, fast comt). I notice that these tend to have few or no side effects with high doses of caffeine and anabolic hormones. It is these bodybuilders who use liters without any symptoms..

Robby Robinson with 76 years. Never touch Testosterone.

You are definitely shaking my beliefs with this Deca-only protocole.
I keep reading the lack of e2 and DHT will be problematic in the long run, although I have been myself interested in running trestolone in the past.

 

[DenizkaRedizka]

Because your attitude to him was dismissive and non-constructive.
He told you his bodyfat was fine UNTIL he used testosterone, so you don't even seem to understand what he writes indeed.

Please stop with this attitude, we have had lots of nefarious actors recently, way too many new accounts of people either looking for quick fixes in a rude manner or people not actually contributing in a useful manner to conversations.

You seem to have problems of your own that you want resolved with the help of this forum, so remain courteous and constructive.

No problem, in some ways you are right, in some ways I am. Keep hoping for the magic pill and looking for what you can never find.

 

[BlackMolasses]

Testosterone (1400 mg/week!) increases strength, but makes me even more insomniac. A psychological improvement present (especially at the level of "courage") but disappointing compared to the dosages.
I would like to try something else, but I'm afraid of deletion, Is nandrolone very suppressive ?

 

[AspiringSage]

Testosterone (1400 mg/week!) increases strength, but makes me even more insomniac. A psychological improvement present (especially at the level of "courage") but disappointing compared to the dosages.
I would like to try something else, but I'm afraid of deletion, Is nandrolone very suppressive ?

Nandrolone is indeed deeply suppressive. The commonly used ester within the US medical system nandrolone decanoate (deca) has a long half life. Nandrolone phenylpropionate (NPP) commonly used by bodybuilders and rarely in medicine has a much shorter half-life. Nandrolone also has long lived metabolites once inside the cell. Nandrolone and related 19 nor derivatives have been researched as male birth control. It’s noteworthy that the 19 nor carbon swap is shared structurally by synthetic 19 nor progesterones used in female birth control.

In certain ways, I really really like nandrolone. It’s fascinating, powerful and probably fairly safe at sane doses. Its not estrogenic. It doesn’t crash SHBG. It’s hair safe for some people and not for others. It’s effective for muscle building even at moderate doses. It’s amazing for treating muscle wasting conditions. It’s effective on anemia. It once saw widespread use for HIV wasting syndrome where it was apparently quite effective. On the other hand, it’s its very suppressive of natural production and has nurosteroid implications that I would like to see longer studies on.

My lab ferret has dabbled with it; but, precedes with caution since he might want to have kits with a lady ferret.

 

[Gûs80]

Não entendo porque você escreveu isso. Você quer sentir pena de si mesmo? Eu tenho 2 concussões e milhares de microconcussões do boxe. Insônia por 4 meses seguidos, bulimia, ortorexia, falta de libido, dores nas articulações e dezenas de outros problemas de saúde aos 19 anos. Não sou contra a TRH, você afirmou que tem 25% de gordura corporal, se quiser reduzir a aromatização , então você obviamente precisa reduzir a porcentagem de gordura corporal e mudar para esteróides não aromatizantes (masteron, propionato, etc.)

You judged me, I just contextualized.
I never felt sorry for myself, because I believe in karma. Just looking for improvement.

Lower your serotonin as you don't have to be aggressive to defend your opinions.
Go in peace!

 

[Gûs80]

You are definitely shaking my beliefs with this Deca-only protocole.
I keep reading the lack of e2 and DHT will be problematic in the long run, although I have been myself interested in running trestolone in the past.

I am aware of all the symptoms you mentioned earlier. Let's see how it goes.

So far they really have been a lot nicer than TRT.

A brief account of Robby Robinson on his facebook. He never used Testosterone, he used Deca in cycles, never continuously. I really can't believe he's the same age as my father.

Something that caught my attention about TRT was the deaths of two proponents of this therapy, Dr Chrysler and Charles Poliquin. Both died at 60, apparently of a heart attack.





View: https://m.facebook.com/RobbyRobinson.TheBlackPrince/photos/a.223678547658231/700090220017059/?type=3

 

[Gûs80]

Testosterone (1400 mg/week!) increases strength, but makes me even more insomniac. A psychological improvement present (especially at the level of "courage") but disappointing compared to the dosages.
I would like to try something else, but I'm afraid of deletion, Is nandrolone very suppressive ?

1400mg is a very high dose. In my experiences with TRT, I have noticed a sharp worsening of insomnia, perhaps due to cortisol fluctuations. It is difficult to separate whether the symptoms are high T, high E2, or high DHT when on TRT.

I am now 4 weeks on Deca-only and for the first time I feel good on hormones. There is little time for a good analysis. But if you go back a few pages, I posted a doctor who has been replacing Deca for two decades.

About suppression, @AspiringSage did an excellent summary.

In Brazil we have a great bodybuilder who claims to use only 100mg of T per week off. I felt better on this low dose of testosterone enanthate.

If you have suffered a concussion or trauma, consider using mk677, a ghrelin analogue that increases gh by 40 - 70% at low doses, 10mg. This substitute worked miracles on my sleep. Cyproheptadine also helps a lot, but it loses effectiveness in a few days.

 

[AspiringSage]

I am aware of all the symptoms you mentioned earlier. Let's see how it goes.

So far they really have been a lot nicer than TRT.

A brief account of Robby Robinson on his facebook. He never used Testosterone, he used Deca in cycles, never continuously. I really can't believe he's the same age as my father.

Something that caught my attention about TRT was the deaths of two proponents of this therapy, Dr Chrysler and Charles Poliquin. Both died at 60, apparently of a heart attack.





View: https://m.facebook.com/RobbyRobinson.TheBlackPrince/photos/a.223678547658231/700090220017059/?type=3

In older males, TRT has a dose dependent decrees in all cause mortality. This study shows many improvements across the board. With only a mild increase in the risk of strokes in persons who had previously experienced a stroke. Even that group had a lower overall chance of adverse outcomes - simply a higher risk of stroke.

Testosterone and Health Outcomes​

I suspect that many of the issues associated with TRT are estrogen related. Those can be controlled with oral exemestane or low (perhaps even micro) doses of injectable boldenone.

 

[Gûs80]

In older males, TRT has a dose dependent decrees in all cause mortality. This study shows many improvements across the board. With only a mild increase in the risk of strokes in persons who had previously experienced a stroke. Even that group had a lower overall chance of adverse outcomes - simply a higher risk of stroke.

Testosterone and Health Outcomes​

I suspect that many of the issues associated with TRT are estrogen related. Those can be controlled with oral exemestane or low (perhaps even micro) doses of injectable boldenone.

As I tend to get sleepy only after 3am since I was a teenager, I've spent the last 10 years reading scientific papers at dawn. I read hundreds about the benefits of TRT, so I insisted for years.

But I've also read hundreds of studies proving omega-3 benefits. In fact, I used it in high doses for 5 years for medical reasons, something that contributed a lot to the worsening of my health. One of the biggest frauds in the pharmaceutical industry.

I've read another hundred about the benefits of Nitric Oxide or the "big benefits" of estrogen in men and maybe thousands extolling Serotonin.

I followed until 2020 my father-in-law being chemically castrated with estrogen in the treatment of prostate cancer. A slow and dark death.

I can tell you that I read hundreds of thousands of scientific studies on different topics in search of solutions that doctors did not give me, mainly from Pubmed and every day I agree with Dr Ray Peat. Most studies are rigged by Big Pharma.

Currently I prefer to doubt all medical consensus.

I follow a precept my father taught me:

"Common sense is the antithesis of good sense!"

I agree with you that TRT's problems are mostly related to high e2. Of the many doctors I consulted, only one gave me low-dose exemestane. However, it was not enough to reduce side effects such as anxiety, irritability and worsening sleep. Definitely TRT is not for everyone.

 

[Matestube]

I am aware of all the symptoms you mentioned earlier. Let's see how it goes.

So far they really have been a lot nicer than TRT.

A brief account of Robby Robinson on his facebook. He never used Testosterone, he used Deca in cycles, never continuously. I really can't believe he's the same age as my father.

Something that caught my attention about TRT was the deaths of two proponents of this therapy, Dr Chrysler and Charles Poliquin. Both died at 60, apparently of a heart attack.





View: https://m.facebook.com/RobbyRobinson.TheBlackPrince/photos/a.223678547658231/700090220017059/?type=3

Dr Crisler hanged himself, he had been battling depression for a while.

Charles Poliquin died of a heart attack indeed, which could or couldn't be related to testosterone. The guy was constantly dieting and exercising like a mad man, which are bigger contributing factors to a heart condition than testosterone.

 

[Matestube]

As I tend to get sleepy only after 3am since I was a teenager, I've spent the last 10 years reading scientific papers at dawn. I read hundreds about the benefits of TRT, so I insisted for years.

But I've also read hundreds of studies proving omega-3 benefits. In fact, I used it in high doses for 5 years for medical reasons, something that contributed a lot to the worsening of my health. One of the biggest frauds in the pharmaceutical industry.

I've read another hundred about the benefits of Nitric Oxide or the "big benefits" of estrogen in men and maybe thousands extolling Serotonin.

I followed until 2020 my father-in-law being chemically castrated with estrogen in the treatment of prostate cancer. A slow and dark death.

I can tell you that I read hundreds of thousands of scientific studies on different topics in search of solutions that doctors did not give me, mainly from Pubmed and every day I agree with Dr Ray Peat. Most studies are rigged by Big Pharma.

Currently I prefer to doubt all medical consensus.

I follow a precept my father taught me:

"Common sense is the antithesis of good sense!"

I agree with you that TRT's problems are mostly related to high e2. Of the many doctors I consulted, only one gave me low-dose exemestane. However, it was not enough to reduce side effects such as anxiety, irritability and worsening sleep. Definitely TRT is not for everyone.

I also tend to not follow big pharma's advice.

When I look at what we have as men from the start and what should be optimized because we are all chemically castrated in this world : DHEA and testosterone.
We do not produce nandrolone in significant amounts, if any.

So from nature's perspective, it seems counterintuitive.
Don't get me wrong : I drink Red Bull, Coke, and eat white chocolate. None of this is found in nature, and still makes me feel good.

I'm just scared of the consequences of not having DHT.

 

[Gûs80]

I also tend to not follow big pharma's advice.

When I look at what we have as men from the start and what should be optimized because we are all chemically castrated in this world : DHEA and testosterone.
We do not produce nandrolone in significant amounts, if any.

So from nature's perspective, it seems counterintuitive.
Don't get me wrong : I drink Red Bull, Coke, and eat white chocolate. None of this is found in nature, and still makes me feel good.

I'm just scared of the consequences of not having DHT.

We agreed on the dht. That's why I'll start masteron together, unfortunately I don't have sources of pure dht or testosterone in Brazil, I would love to test it if possible.

Since I started TRT my ability to lose weight has disappeared, even with strict diets I lose little subcutaneous fat. Before trt, even with hypogonadism, I was able to maintain my weight easily and have little body fat.

I found this study interesting showing that dht blocks the growth of subcutaneous fat, while estradiol blocks the growth of visceral fat.

I have some low dht traits, almost no body hair, a sparse beard and a predominance of subcutaneous fat.

I think your questions are very valid. I confess that it took me more than a year researching and talking to men in Deca Only before I decided to try it out. I keep an open mind and watch out for collateral. I'm not committed to failure, so if I see undesirable side effects, I'm done with the test.

Testosterone metabolites differentially regulate obesogenesis and fat distribution

Low testosterone in men (hypogonadism) is associated with obesity and type II diabetes. Testosterone replacement therapy has been shown to reverse the…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Gûs80]

Dr Crisler hanged himself, he had been battling depression for a while.

Charles Poliquin died of a heart attack indeed, which could or couldn't be related to testosterone. The guy was constantly dieting and exercising like a mad man, which are bigger contributing factors to a heart condition than testosterone.

Dr. John Crisler Has Passed

This is interesting because E2 protects cardiac tissue. I wonder if the AI had anything to do with his health issues… RIP Crisler.

forums.t-nation.com

This is just one of the forums that talk about Dr Chrysler's heart attack. In several of them I read patients stating that he had heart complications before death. In this link the participants debate about his opinion against the use of AI's and his defense of floating e2 levels.