Sleep Quality & Deep Sleep

[yerrag]

“Fitbit estimates your sleep stages using a combination of your movement and heart-rate patterns. When you haven’t moved for about an hour, your tracker or watch assumes that you’re asleep. Additional data—such as the length of time your movements are indicative of sleep behavior (such as rolling over, etc.)—help confirm that you’re asleep. While you’re sleeping, your device tracks the beat-to-beat changes in your heart rate, known as heart rate variability (HRV), which fluctuate as you transition between light sleep, deep sleep, and REM sleep stages. When you sync your device in the morning, we use your movement and heart rate patterns to estimate your sleep cycles from the previous night. “

Thanks. Been thinking about getting one, just to track sleep. But I'm not convinced if Fitbit is better than the sleep apps that don't rely on heart rate. Did you go with Fitbit because you were not satisfied with the apps that don't rely on heart rate monitoring? Or did you just happen to already have Fitbit?

 

[dbh25]

Here are some of the less bad ones. As you can see the score isn't really something to go by, either that or the graph shape isn't something that affects the score. But the 100% was after 4mg of cyproheptadine

Is the 100% relative to a baseline, or relative to how you sleep on average?

 

[Mito]

Thanks. Been thinking about getting one, just to track sleep. But I'm not convinced if Fitbit is better than the sleep apps that don't rely on heart rate. Did you go with Fitbit because you were not satisfied with the apps that don't rely on heart rate monitoring? Or did you just happen to already have Fitbit?

Because I wanted to track sleep and I wanted something that would calculate my resting heart rate everyday. It is interesting to see how variable the heart rate is during the day and at night while you sleep.

 

[yerrag]

Hey,

I have been dealing with poor sleep quality and duration for almost 6 years. Getting in better health made an improvement ~2 years ago, and finding peat 6 months ago helped further. I feel pretty good about sleep these days.

I have been using an alarm clock/sleep tracker hybrid app on my phone called "Sleep Cycle" (Sleep Cycle alarm clock) that was recommended by @Such_Saturation in a different thread. I like seeing graphically how I slept the night before, and I tend to agree with how it grades my sleep quality, on a percentage basis. When I wake up and feel tired, it tends to confirm for me that I had poor quality or restless sleep.

So, this post is about how to get the maximum amount of deep sleep possible.

My issues seem to be a lack of consistent deep sleep. I want more deep sleep. Last night the app told me I had 38% sleep quality - disturbing, considering I am health conscious.

I'll list some factors that I control that I know affect sleep quality, but I'd love if others could chime in and help me get the sleep of my "dreams"(... ). Its my personal stance that sleep is literally THE thing in health, so getting less deep sleep than possible is aggravating to be sure.

Some factors I account for:
a) Avoiding caffeine later in the day (I have 4 cups of strong coffee upon waking, around 6am)
b) Getting sunlight, especially early in the day
c) Getting regular exercise (I lift weights 5 days/wk, mostly for muscular endurance - not overly stressful)
d) Getting good nutrition - I supplement vitamins E, K, aspirin each morning, and I track my food intake regularly on cronometer. I get more calcium than phosphorous, ~2.5g of calcium daily. I get more copper than iron daily. I avoid PUFA, but I do eat eggs and drink milk. I eat fruit, I avoid starch. I get about 100g of protein daily. My calories are low for my size, between 2300 and 2800, and I'm losing weight, but I do not feel hungry or stressed out before bed - I REALLY doubt I need to eat more.
e) My room is quiet and dark, except for my alarm clock, which is a very dim, red light, and is located across the room.
f) I turn WIFI off before sleep.
g) I use F.lux on my phone and computer screen; I don't watch TV.
h) I usually go for a walk in the evening, I think it helps lower serotonin.
i) I do ~5 minutes of stretching before bed, in areas that tend to get tight either from weight training or stress, like my traps, neck, chest and biceps. This makes me feel like collapsing on my pillow, its glorious.
j) I have some sugar before bed, typically honey

Falling asleep usually isnt an issue, nor is staying asleep through the night. The problem seems to be the amount of deep sleep; this app has validated how I feel some mornings.

I don't snore unless its developed VERY recently; I don't wake with a dry mouth (indicating mouth breathing). I doubt sleep apnea is an issue.

Tend to wake on my side, & I find my bed comfortable.

That's all I can think of right now. Please post any ideas that can help with getting more deep sleep!

Hard to imagine why you're not having good sleep, when you sleep continually, dont't snore, and sleep enough. What I can't also understand is how the Sleep Cycle would be able to tell you didn't have a good sleep when all those things check out. That you stay asleep and sleep enough I don't doubt, but I wonder if you can check on whether you snore or not. Perhaps your snore level isn't loud enough to wake your girlfriend. Or perhaps your girlfriend sleeps like a log. Or the Sleep for Android app wasn't hearing your snore. Sorry, but I feel it doesn't hurt to verify.At any rate, if you could tape your mouth tonight and see if your sleep improves, that might help.

 

[yerrag]

Because I wanted to track sleep and I wanted something that would calculate my resting heart rate everyday. It is interesting to see how variable the heart rate is during the day and at night while you sleep.

Thanks. I suppose that the sleep mode we're in can be correlated to the heart rate, and if so, that makes having something that monitors heart rate more accurate in monitoring our sleep.

 

[Mito]

Thanks. I suppose that the sleep mode we're in can be correlated to the heart rate, and if so, that makes having something that monitors heart rate more accurate in monitoring our sleep.

Light Sleep - heart rate usually decreases slightly
Deep sleep - heart rate usually becomes more regular
REM sleep - heart rate increases

 

[Such_Saturation]

Is the 100% relative to a baseline, or relative to how you sleep on average?

I don’t know. It isn’t really well explained.

 

[yerrag]

Light Sleep - heart rate usually decreases slightly
Deep sleep - heart rate usually becomes more regular
REM sleep - heart rate increases

I'm sold! Sorry to be off thread here, but have you found heart rate to be a proxy for temperature for a normal, healthy individual? Specifically, those not having acid-alkaline balance issues that affects their heart rate leading to brahycardia or tachycardia? Would be able to get an approximate idea of your temperature from your heart rate, on your own individualized context?

 

[Mito]

I'm sold! Sorry to be off thread here, but have you found heart rate to be a proxy for temperature for a normal, healthy individual?

Not sure, I only check my temperature occasionally to see if it increases after eating.

 

[dbh25]

I don’t know. It isn’t really well explained.

Thanks, the first 4 nights the sleep quality was Calibrating. After the 5th night, it changed to a %. I thought maybe the 100% night is marked for the best night, and the others are relative to it.

 

[YourUniverse]

Since writing the OP, I made the following changes: a) took vitamin D in the morning, b) did not workout (maybe some kind of overtraining causing the light sleep), and c) avoided all dairy (cow dairy tends to make me mucousy, which I figure could contribute to any latent apnea/snoring issues - very low calcium yesterday, though).

My sleep quality last night was 81%, whatever that means. Of note, I got a few brief pockets of true deep sleep, which is what I crave. This could just be a natural bounce-back from the night before, when I got no deep sleep at all.

I took vitamin D again, I will train this evening, and I will eat dairy today. I'm interested to see if it was simply vitamin D that I needed. I'll also tape my mouth shut, as suggested by @yerrag .

Hard to imagine why you're not having good sleep, when you sleep continually, dont't snore, and sleep enough. What I can't also understand is how the Sleep Cycle would be able to tell you didn't have a good sleep when all those things check out. That you stay asleep and sleep enough I don't doubt, but I wonder if you can check on whether you snore or not. Perhaps your snore level isn't loud enough to wake your girlfriend. Or perhaps your girlfriend sleeps like a log. Or the Sleep for Android app wasn't hearing your snore. Sorry, but I feel it doesn't hurt to verify.At any rate, if you could tape your mouth tonight and see if your sleep improves, that might help.

It perplexes me too, but vitamin D deficiency could be in play. The days here have been cold and short, and I have been deliberately avoiding vitamin D supplementation. Still, I'll tape my mouth shut in the next few nights, and see what happens!

 

[mmb82]

It perplexes me too, but vitamin D deficiency could be in play

Did you recently get a vitamin D test to verify low vitamin D levels? I know Peat is a proponent of high Ca/P, but I am becoming less and less of a fan of calcium and vitamin D supplements, which increase calcium absorption. I am not saying vitamin D is evil, but vitamin D supplements are probably more dangerous than good (my opinion) and vitamin D should be produced by the body, not taken orally.

I know you have tons of things to try based on suggestions from other users, but here are my suggestions: 1) continue to reduce calcium intake, i.e. keep off the dairy, 2) remove the vitamin D supplement, and 3) try magnesium, whether oral, topical, or some combination of the two, before bed if you have not done so already. Also, I noticed you said you are taking vitamin K in the mornings with aspirin. I would take vitamin K in the evening/before bed, as I noticed it tends to have a calming effect. I myself noticed much deeper sleep when I began taking some combination of vitamin A, vitamin K, and magnesium and stopped vitamin D and calcium supplements. It may be worth a try for you as well.

 

[YourUniverse]

Did you recently get a vitamin D test to verify low vitamin D levels? I know Peat is a proponent of high Ca/P, but I am becoming less and less of a fan of calcium and vitamin D supplements, which increase calcium absorption. I am not saying vitamin D is evil, but vitamin D supplements are probably more dangerous than good (my opinion) and vitamin D should be produced by the body, not taken orally.

I know you have tons of things to try based on suggestions from other users, but here are my suggestions: 1) continue to reduce calcium intake, i.e. keep off the dairy, 2) remove the vitamin D supplement, and 3) try magnesium, whether oral, topical, or some combination of the two, before bed if you have not done so already. Also, I noticed you said you are taking vitamin K in the mornings with aspirin. I would take vitamin K in the evening/before bed, as I noticed it tends to have a calming effect. I myself noticed much deeper sleep when I began taking some combination of vitamin A, vitamin K, and magnesium and stopped vitamin D and calcium supplements. It may be worth a try for you as well.

No I havent gotten it tested. I also share your concern. I bought a UVB lamp as a vitamin D supplement months ago, but have been neglecting it. Yesterday and this morning, I used it for ~3 minutes on my back and chest area. I'm not married to vitamin D being the cure, but I think it's plausible and I'm interested in testing it before ruling it out.

I note the suggestions for magnesium and vitamin K in the evening, certainly factors to monitor. I feel like I shouldn't change more than a variable at a time, so I'll note them and wait to find out how some vitamin D therapy works before indulging. Good ideas, thank you @mmb82 !

 

[Dolf]

Hi jaimes I've been also experiencing poor sleep in the last years. Maybe you can experiment with some gelatin. RP said in Gelatin Stress and Longevity: "For years I hadn't slept trough a whole night without waking, and I was in the habit of having some juice or a little thyroid to help me go back to sleep. The first time I had several grams of gelatin just before bedtime, I slept without interruption for about 9 hours."
I ordered some gelatin but it haven't arrived yet. But it's worth a try.

 

[YourUniverse]

Hi jaimes I've been also experiencing poor sleep in the last years. Maybe you can experiment with some gelatin. RP said in Gelatin Stress and Longevity: "For years I hadn't slept trough a whole night without waking, and I was in the habit of having some juice or a little thyroid to help me go back to sleep. The first time I had several grams of gelatin just before bedtime, I slept without interruption for about 9 hours."
I ordered some gelatin but it haven't arrived yet. But it's worth a try.

I have some gelatin that I use once in a while with whey protein, I will definitely use it tonight - GREAT idea, thank you!

 

[biggirlkisss]

does sleeping with the light on help you?

 

[YourUniverse]

does sleeping with the light on help you?

I haven't tried, but I feel like I would respond better to pitch black than to having lights on

 

[Mossy]

I used a sleep tracking app for quite a while, but I'm not so certain it's not just more of a tech novelty and less of a true barometer of sleep quality. If I understand correctly, it's just using the gyroscope to detect motion; is that the best measure of sleep? No doubt, it is a measure, but as some have noted here, even when the app notes what should've been a great night of sleep, they didn't feel that great. I'm not mentioning this to be negative, I promise, just sharing what have been my own thoughts for a while now after a year or so of using a sleep app.

Also, what about the argument against having an electronic device so close to you while sleeping? That was a big factor as well, for me, to stop using it. I now use my phone to stream music as I fall asleep, but I put it at a level lower than me and shielded by the mattress.

Just some thoughts.

P.S. I even question having that wifi signal going, to stream the music, so close to me, though I do attempt to shield it.

 

[mirc12354]

Hey,
I have been using an alarm clock/sleep tracker hybrid app on my phone called "Sleep Cycle" (Sleep Cycle alarm clock) that was recommended by @Such_Saturation in a different thread. I like seeing graphically how I slept the night before, and I tend to agree with how it grades my sleep quality, on a percentage basis. When I wake up and feel tired, it tends to confirm for me that I had poor quality or restless sleep.
!

Does everybody who uses this app tend to agree with its reslults? I have been using it for 11 days and in my experience it is not very reliable (showing I was awake when I know I was not, percentage on sleep quality not correlating with how rested I subjectively feel). perhaps it is just my phone...

 

[raypeatclips]

Does everybody who uses this app tend to agree with its reslults? I have been using it for 11 days and in my experience it is not very reliable (showing I was awake when I know I was not, percentage on sleep quality not correlating with how rested I subjectively feel). perhaps it is just my phone...

I had a couple of days of 100 percent sleep quality where I felt groggy the next day, tired, unrested etc. Not sure how they work out that.