Too much REM sleep vs too low Deep sleep

faxmulder

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
112
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!
 

Beastmode

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2017
Messages
671
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!

Has it ever been proven that someone can get too much REM sleep?

Deep sleep is a product of a well rounded approach that improves your system as whole. Some people here, and outside of the forum I know, claim that a little T3/T4 before bed with something sugary can really improve sleep.

Wearing blue blocking glasses, according to some who wear sleep trackers, dramatically improves deep sleep. I believe an hour before bed is what was said.

I would be more concerned with your morning temps and pulse upon waking than these variable sleep trackers.
 

Hans

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
3,184
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!
Serotonin, cortisol, low thyroid and progesterone, low body temps and gut irritation are common things that prevent deep sleep.
Carbs, aspirin and thyroid can greatly enhance deep sleep.
Low body temps are one of the biggest factors that disrupt proper deep sleep.
 

CreakyJoints

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2020
Messages
196
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!

Fascinating, I would have thought napping would actually reduce your need for it - yes, you can definitely dream a lot when napping. You can even dream a lot in just a minute or two.

I assume you are tracking this using your phone - what is your tracker actually reading; movement via gyroscope, or audio via microphone/super high frequency emissions? I think sometimes these methods are not particularly accurate. Also, I believe some varieties of audio tracking are actually unhelpful for sleep, they may be disturbing you without your knowing. The other thing to consider is when you're actually sleeping.

I don't know anything about that medication specifically, but is it possible for you to get an antihistamine to use before bed as opposed to in the morning? I have friends who report very deep sleep after using them last thing in the evening. If this is not problematic for your condition, it could potentially be easier than introducing an additional substance or supplement. Having said that, I think Ray Peat has mentioned progesterone a few times as a substance which can promote very deep sleep - I'm thinking of the one story he tells about rubbing it in a rabbit's ears, and his friend thought the rabbit had died but it was just super-relaxed.
 

faxmulder

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
112
Serotonin, cortisol, low thyroid and progesterone, low body temps and gut irritation are common things that prevent deep sleep.
Carbs, aspirin and thyroid can greatly enhance deep sleep.
Low body temps are one of the biggest factors that disrupt proper deep sleep.
Thanks man,

So antihistamine is not affecting the REM/deep sleep ratio in any way?

In the past it seemed that after a period using a stack with B complex, ubiquinol, bacopa and cordyceps I was sleeping better. Just a coincidence or is there any truth?

Regarding low body temp you are right, I have chilling hands... is there any natural supplement or herb that can help? Thank you!
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
1,804
Switch to biphasic sleep (2-3 cycles deep preceded by associated supplements/foods/etc, 1 cycle awake, 2-3 cycles REM preceded by salt/honey or other REM-associated things).
 

Nomane Euger

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
268
Switch to biphasic sleep (2-3 cycles deep preceded by associated supplements/foods/etc, 1 cycle awake, 2-3 cycles REM preceded by salt/honey or other REM-associated things).
Hi,expand on that,you described my unintentional and accidental best nights of my life
 

Melekai

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
23
A friend of mine is a performance coach, and has noted he does best when he gets a combined total of 4 hrs of deep + REM.

I've been using an Oura ring for the past 8 mos to confirm what I'd sensed about inadequate deep and REM sleep; various stressors had me floating (in a bad way) in light sleep nearly exclusively, and I was only "unconscious" for ~4hrs/nt. I've added layer upon layer of various things that have collectively gotten me to a much better overall state, pretty routinely having total deep+REM in the range of 3-3.5 hrs. The stack: policosanol (20mg) and cruciferous vegetable extract (1 cap of Life Extensions product; or actual dietary cruciferous veggies) in the evening; 20-30mg progesterone, magnesium, and CBD creams (all topical) at bedtime. Also see Stasha Gominak (MD) on youtube (any of her long-form interviews or talks) re: depletion/rebalancing of B-5 (--> B-complex) levels against serum vit D levels for deep and REM sleep. I did her 100mg-B-complex repletion protocol for a couple months, then backed off (as per the protocol). I've also noticed another increment of restfulness since I started doing BFR (blood-flow restriction) training ~4 days/wk over the last month. Don't want to jinx it, but I just had my first >4hr deep+REM last night in the 8 mos I've been tracking. (Yesterday was a rest day; for me, there's a one-day lag between a BFR session and excellent sleep.)
 

Hans

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
3,184
Thanks man,

So antihistamine is not affecting the REM/deep sleep ratio in any way?

In the past it seemed that after a period using a stack with B complex, ubiquinol, bacopa and cordyceps I was sleeping better. Just a coincidence or is there any truth?

Regarding low body temp you are right, I have chilling hands... is there any natural supplement or herb that can help? Thank you!
Histamine is a wake-promoting substance, so blocking it can cause sedation and better sleep. Depending on the drug that you used and its half-life, perhaps if you took it in the morning it might cause a rebound (or receptors became more sensitized) before bed and disrupt sleep.
Bacopa and cordyceps can act as adaptogens. B6 is necessary for GABA synthesis. B vitamins in general are needed for energy production. Folate and B12 can boost methylation to enhance the breakdown of dopamine, noradrenaline and histamine which can help with sleep. Q10 helps with energy production, which can then help improve sleep.

But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
 

faxmulder

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
112
Histamine is a wake-promoting substance, so blocking it can cause sedation and better sleep. Depending on the drug that you used and its half-life, perhaps if you took it in the morning it might cause a rebound (or receptors became more sensitized) before bed and disrupt sleep.
Bacopa and cordyceps can act as adaptogens. B6 is necessary for GABA synthesis. B vitamins in general are needed for energy production. Folate and B12 can boost methylation to enhance the breakdown of dopamine, noradrenaline and histamine which can help with sleep. Q10 helps with energy production, which can then help improve sleep.

But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
Thanks man!
 

Nomane Euger

Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2020
Messages
268
Hi guys,

since some months I'm experiencing high REM sleep and low deep sleep. Not only anecdotal, also my tracker is confirming this, even if deep sleep seems to be within normal ranges.

I have no problems in falling asleep and, while I don't get up frequently, dreams (they are not nightmares) are disturbing my sleep, thus I'm waking up not fully refreshed.
Often I'm having a quick nap (not more that 30min) after lunch - it's an habit I developed during college. The odd thing is that also in this case I dream - I'm wondering how is it possible to dream in such a short amount of time.

I suspect that the culprit might be the usage of an antihistamine (ebastine), which I'm taking in the morning, prescribed by a specialist for treating itch related to an autoimmune skin disease (lichen).

Is there any supplement that can help in increasing deep sleep, or at least reducing REM?

Hoping that also @Hans would chime in.

Thanks everybody!
Do you wake up during the night?
 

faxmulder

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
112
A friend of mine is a performance coach, and has noted he does best when he gets a combined total of 4 hrs of deep + REM.

I've been using an Oura ring for the past 8 mos to confirm what I'd sensed about inadequate deep and REM sleep; various stressors had me floating (in a bad way) in light sleep nearly exclusively, and I was only "unconscious" for ~4hrs/nt. I've added layer upon layer of various things that have collectively gotten me to a much better overall state, pretty routinely having total deep+REM in the range of 3-3.5 hrs. The stack: policosanol (20mg) and cruciferous vegetable extract (1 cap of Life Extensions product; or actual dietary cruciferous veggies) in the evening; 20-30mg progesterone, magnesium, and CBD creams (all topical) at bedtime. Also see Stasha Gominak (MD) on youtube (any of her long-form interviews or talks) re: depletion/rebalancing of B-5 (--> B-complex) levels against serum vit D levels for deep and REM sleep. I did her 100mg-B-complex repletion protocol for a couple months, then backed off (as per the protocol). I've also noticed another increment of restfulness since I started doing BFR (blood-flow restriction) training ~4 days/wk over the last month. Don't want to jinx it, but I just had my first >4hr deep+REM last night in the 8 mos I've been tracking. (Yesterday was a rest day; for me, there's a one-day lag between a BFR session and excellent sleep.)
thanks man, I'll investigate that protocol.
 

faxmulder

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
112
Histamine is a wake-promoting substance, so blocking it can cause sedation and better sleep. Depending on the drug that you used and its half-life, perhaps if you took it in the morning it might cause a rebound (or receptors became more sensitized) before bed and disrupt sleep.
Bacopa and cordyceps can act as adaptogens. B6 is necessary for GABA synthesis. B vitamins in general are needed for energy production. Folate and B12 can boost methylation to enhance the breakdown of dopamine, noradrenaline and histamine which can help with sleep. Q10 helps with energy production, which can then help improve sleep.

But I'd say body temps and thyroid are the biggest things that can help sleep. If your body takes forever to heat up, you won't be able to get deep sleep. If it takes you 4 hours, then you'll be in light sleep for 4 hours. If you never reach optimal temps, then you'll most likely get little to no deep sleep. This has happened to me a lot when I was hypometabolic and that's why aspirin with carbs before bed helped me sleep better. A little bit of thyroid before bed is also great for sleep for me.
So for body temps, aspirin, carbs, progesterone and thyroid.
thanks man. So is there some sense if I seem to sleep better (i.e. have more deep slepp and less REM) on the nights I took Ibuprofen before sleep?
 

Hans

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
3,184
thanks man. So is there some sense if I seem to sleep better (i.e. have more deep slepp and less REM) on the nights I took Ibuprofen before sleep?
Inflammation in general can disrupt sleep. I'd rather use aspirin, since Ibuprofen has side effects.
 
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