Why Do I Feel BETTER With LESS REM Sleep?

[Lokzo]

Time and time again,

I have been measuring my sleep using the Oura ring, and on the nights where I get less 1 hour of REM sleep, I tend to have more energy, better mood the following day.

My deep sleep averages around 1 hr 50 -2.hrs20 most nights.


Any suspected reasons why? Serotonin-related? @haidut

 

[lampofred]

I've read REM sleep is not necessary for life. I think it's related to activation of the parts of the brain related to sensory processing as opposed to the frontal lobe and is probably associated with acetylcholine/prolactin/low blood sugar. Low REM sleep means these stress hormones are low and CO2/blood sugar/progesterone is high.

 

[Lokzo]

I've read REM sleep is not necessary for life. I think it's related to activation of the parts of the brain related to sensory processing as opposed to the frontal lobe and is probably associated with acetylcholine/prolactin/low blood sugar. Low REM sleep means these stress hormones are low and CO2/blood sugar/progesterone is high.

Very interesting... I will need to look into research in this realm.

Btw, is there a simple device that measures breath CO2 levels? (This may be a really stupid question).

 

[Hugh Johnson]

REM sleep is meant for your brain to tie up loose ends, consolidate learning etc. It is not restful for the body, that is why people who ruminate a lot can sleep a lot but never feel rested. That is a common experience in depression. See Human Givens research on sleep for this.

 

[DrJ]

It's the deep sleep that makes you feel rested. I would love to get your levels of deep sleep. If I get even 45min deep sleep (rare), I feel awesome. If your reduced REM sleep goes into increasing your deep sleep then that's why you feel better with less REM sleep.

 

[Mufasa]

Time and time again,

I have been measuring my sleep using the Oura ring, and on the nights where I get less 1 hour of REM sleep, I tend to have more energy, better mood the following day.

My deep sleep averages around 1 hr 50 -2.hrs20 most nights.


Any suspected reasons why? Serotonin-related? @haidut

Hmm that is quite interesting, I think REM sleep is important, it probably means that you already succesfully processed many stimuli during the day and only need little REM in your sleep.

 

[Lokzo]

REM sleep is meant for your brain to tie up loose ends, consolidate learning etc. It is not restful for the body, that is why people who ruminate a lot can sleep a lot but never feel rested. That is a common experience in depression. See Human Givens research on sleep for this.

I definitely will checkout that Human Givens research!!

Thanks!

 

[Lokzo]

It's the deep sleep that makes you feel rested. I would love to get your levels of deep sleep. If I get even 45min deep sleep (rare), I feel awesome. If your reduced REM sleep goes into increasing your deep sleep then that's why you feel better with less REM sleep.

I do train 5 days a week, very heavy lifting, and cardio once a week.
I also attribute my good deep sleep to low cortisol.

 

[Lokzo]

Hmm that is quite interesting, I think REM sleep is important, it probably means that you already succesfully processed many stimuli during the day and only need little REM in your sleep.

I get that... Makes sense. I want to do more research.

 

[Cirion]

I have been noticing a trend myself. I think the more restful sleep is the "first" sleep you get, that is, the # of hrs slept from initially going to bed. For me that's around 4-6 hrs a night average. Then I notice, when I go to bed again, I have more REM sleep, more interrupted sleep, and it's not restful sleep, I frequently wake up more tired after 8-10 hr of sleep than I did from only 4-6. My glucose has already run out after 4-6 hrs, so any more sleep after that is not restful. Because it's completely empty at the 4-6 hr mark, just having a glass of OJ or something is simply NOT gonna cut it. The advice around here is typically oh just have a glass of OJ with some salt and/or baking soda and maybe a tbsp of coconut oil, but it just doesn't work IME. So I think I'm gonna just start my day from now on when I wake up the first time. It'll suck at first, but I have a feeling in the long run it will be beneficial - since I now believe that running out of glucose / activating adrenaline is FAR more damaging to your body than simply 1-2 hr of sleep deprivation. Sleep isn't restful unless you are highly energetic (ie, glucose) anyway, so sleeping when your glucose is low is literally a complete waste of time.

 

[Mufasa]

I have been noticing a trend myself. I think the more restful sleep is the "first" sleep you get, that is, the # of hrs slept from initially going to bed. For me that's around 4-6 hrs a night average. Then I notice, when I go to bed again, I have more REM sleep, more interrupted sleep, and it's not restful sleep, I frequently wake up more tired after 8-10 hr of sleep than I did from only 4-6. My glucose has already run out after 4-6 hrs, so any more sleep after that is not restful. Because it's completely empty at the 4-6 hr mark, just having a glass of OJ or something is simply NOT gonna cut it. The advice around here is typically oh just have a glass of OJ with some salt and/or baking soda and maybe a tbsp of coconut oil, but it just doesn't work IME. So I think I'm gonna just start my day from now on when I wake up the first time. It'll suck at first, but I have a feeling in the long run it will be beneficial - since I now believe that running out of glucose / activating adrenaline is FAR more damaging to your body than simply 1-2 hr of sleep deprivation. Sleep isn't restful unless you are highly energetic (ie, glucose) anyway, so sleeping when your glucose is low is literally a complete waste of time.

I doubt that. Maybe your last bit of sleep is harder because processing stimuli/trauma/emotions just cost much more energy then restoring your physical body.

But if you insist on depriving yourself of REM sleep you may want to try EMDR, I have been wondering for a while if this may work like daytime REM sleep.

 

[Cirion]

I doubt that. Maybe your last bit of sleep is harder because processing stimuli/trauma/emotions just cost much more energy then restoring your physical body.

But if you insist on depriving yourself of REM sleep you may want to try EMDR, I have been wondering for a while if this may work like daytime REM sleep.

Well, regardless, I don't think it's normal to wake up repeatedly. I am not necessarily saying that REM sleep is bad per-se, but the fact is there's a strong correlation between me not waking up rested, fragmented/frequent awakenings, tons of REM, and poor restfulness.

 

[ShotTrue]

Fragmented REM sleep can harm the amygdala’s ability to process emotional memories from embarrassing, cringe-worthy experiences overnight, which can lead to more embarrassment and insomnia the next day, a cycle of poor sleep and feeling bad that can last weeks, suggests a new fMRI brain scan study.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Gingko biloba seems to increase non-REM sleep, and I recall reading that it lowers REM sleep.

 

[Lokzo]

Gingko biloba seems to increase non-REM sleep, and I recall reading that it lowers REM sleep.

Oh fascinating!

Please share the research!! I was not aware of this!

 

[aquaman]

For me, the quality of my sleep is determined by absolute amount of time in deep sleep (as measured by oura ring). High REM indicates too many thoughts/feelings being acted out or processed through dreams.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Oh fascinating!

Please share the research!! I was not aware of this!

This was the study that I found: Polysomnographic effects of adjuvant ginkgo biloba therapy in patients with major depression medicated with trimipramine. - PubMed - NCBI

" ...sleep stage 1 and REM-density were reduced, while stage 2 was increased. Non-REM sleep, predominantly slow wave sleep in the first sleep cycle, was significantly enhanced compared to trimipramine monotherapy."

I actually first read about this effect of gingko on a site a couple of years ago, but I believe it just mentioned it briefly. I guess that was the study that they got the information from.

 

[Goobz]

It's the deep sleep that makes you feel rested. I would love to get your levels of deep sleep. If I get even 45min deep sleep (rare), I feel awesome. If your reduced REM sleep goes into increasing your deep sleep then that's why you feel better with less REM sleep.

This.

Some other things that increase ratio of deep sleep to REM are low dose lithium, and I think vitamin A.

If you do find that more REM per se makes you feel worse, you could try testing for sleep apnea. Many patients with sleep apnea get the majority of their apneas taking place in the REM stage of sleep, when muscles are most paralysed.

 

[Lokzo]

So last night I got 2 hours 12 mins Deep sleep, but also 2hrs 5 mins REM sleep.

Feel like shi* today, and it was noticeable as soon as I woke up.

I also had Chaga mushroom yesterday, which I think is absolutely a no go zone for my physiology. Feels like it raises serotonin or something.

 

[Lokzo]

This was the study that I found: Polysomnographic effects of adjuvant ginkgo biloba therapy in patients with major depression medicated with trimipramine. - PubMed - NCBI

" ...sleep stage 1 and REM-density were reduced, while stage 2 was increased. Non-REM sleep, predominantly slow wave sleep in the first sleep cycle, was significantly enhanced compared to trimipramine monotherapy."

I actually first read about this effect of gingko on a site a couple of years ago, but I believe it just mentioned it briefly. I guess that was the study that they got the information from.

oh wow nice find!!