SIBO, Gut Motility, Constipation. What Is Really Going On? I Will Tell You

Kartoffel

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Amazoniac

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I see. Then it's an even stronger suggestion not to take big doses of supplemental niacin. Still, I think smaller doses used intermittently can still be used to suppress free fatty acids and improve glucose utilization. Then again, why use potentially dangerous niacin at all, if you can use niacinamide instead?

Dosing profile profoundly influences nicotinic acid’s ability to improve metabolic control in rats
I don't think that it's specific to nicotinic acid, higher doses of nicotinamide must be able to do the same. But I agree that it's preferable to use human doses of either and renew them. Regarding the form when intakes are reasonable, that's a tough question.
 

Kartoffel

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I don't think that it's specific to nicotinic acid, higher doses of nicotinamide must be able to do the same. But I agree that it's preferable to use human doses of either and renew them. Regarding the form when intakes are reasonable, that's a tough question.

Are you sure? I doubt the effects would be similar as niacin has several unfavorable actions that niacinamide doesn't appear to have, even at greater concentrations. Niacinamide directly improves glucose oxidation via its' action on the NADPH-producing dehydrogenases, and inhibits lypolysis and free fatty acid release. Do you have a study showing the same rebound effects for niacinamide?
 

Amazoniac

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Are you sure? I doubt the effects would be similar as niacin has several unfavorable actions that niacinamide doesn't appear to have, even at greater concentrations. Niacinamide directly improves glucose oxidation via its' action on the NADPH-producing dehydrogenases, and inhibits lypolysis and free fatty acid release. Do you have a study showing the same rebound effects for niacinamide?
Not sure, if I come across something, I'll post.

It's curious that Gerson had better results with nicotinic acid:
From the book:

"Niacin (or nicotinic acid, the pellagra medication) is one of the B2 vitamins and should be given from the beginning in sufficient amounts; it should be given without too much interruption and should not be diminished too fast. Niacin helps to bring back sufficient glycogen into the liver cells. It helps, furthermore, in the protein metabolism and acts to open the small arteries and capillaries; therefore, it must be discontinued in the event of bleeding. It also raises the electrical potentials in the cells. It improves the characteristic pellagra phenomena, especially: glossitis, stomatitis, vaginitis, urethritis and proctitis, the dermal erythema and some mental changes, as well as porphyrinuria.

Niacin is administered for a long time: 50 mg. six times daily, rarely more; after four to six months the dosage should be reduced.

Patients are easily frightened in the beginning when niacin causes a diffuse redness and heat all over the body or, more often, on the head and arms; this reaction is harmless and lasts only a few minutes. To avoid such reactions it is advisable to dissolve the tablet on the tongue after a meal or a glass of juice."​

And Charlotte's review (from 'The Gerson Therapy' book):

"The nicotinic form of niacin is being recommended here as a medication for the Gerson Therapy and not the niacinamide ("no-flush") form, which shows almost no beneficial effect for most degenerative diseases except the arthritides such as osteoarthritis. If the niacin flush irritates the patient, take the tablet after meals or let it dissolve under the tongue. It should not be discontinued because it provides vasodilation which improves blood circulation, elevates skin temperature, increases oxygenation, promotes cellular nutrition, and produces an overall detoxification effect. This also is a factor in protein digestion."​

Quite a while ago I tried to contact Raj to ask his opinion on this, but didn't get a response. I mean, if both were at his disposal and some patients were in a critical situation, why he would choose the inferior one? There must be something special to it.

- Safety of high-dose nicotinamide: a review

"Niacin, first isolated from rice bran in 1911 and more commonly known as Vitamin B3, is a water soluble vitamin with a recommended daily allowance of 0.3 mg/kg/day. It was later recognised to have two distinct but chemically related components, nicotinamide and nicotinic acid. Its deficiency causes pellagra in man. Nicotinamide, first isolated from horse erythrocytes in 1935 [4], is the amide derivative of nicotinic acid. It is a bitter tasting, white, odourless, crystalline powder."​

If I'm not wrong, the book was published around 1960.
 

Kartoffel

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Not sure, if I come across something, I'll post.

It's curious that Gerson had better results with nicotinic acid:


Quite a while ago I tried to contact Raj to ask his opinion on this, but didn't get a response. I mean, if both were at his disposal and some patients were in a critical situation, why he would choose the inferior one? There must be something special to it.

- Safety of high-dose nicotinamide: a review

"Niacin, first isolated from rice bran in 1911 and more commonly known as Vitamin B3, is a water soluble vitamin with a recommended daily allowance of 0.3 mg/kg/day. It was later recognised to have two distinct but chemically related components, nicotinamide and nicotinic acid. Its deficiency causes pellagra in man. Nicotinamide, first isolated from horse erythrocytes in 1935 [4], is the amide derivative of nicotinic acid. It is a bitter tasting, white, odourless, crystalline powder."​

If I'm not wrong, the book was published around 1960.

Please do.

I am not very familiar with Gerson, his reasoning, or how successful his clinical practice really was, so I can't comment on that. I think the second quote, which is not from Gerson himself, especially shows some of the ignorance regarding the potential negative side effects of niacin. If something flushes you, and leads to systemic activation of prostaglandins, it can't be an all-good-detoxification effect. In fact, whenever somone uses the word detoxification effect, I would become very suspicious.
 
T

TheBeard

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There is no such thing as B-vitamins burdening the liver... I dont know how likely it is, but depending on one's own liver, increasing Bs can bring on detox seeing as all Bs play a direct role in detox in the liver. Also the drop in blood sugar when B dose is super high and/or one doesnt eat enough carbs.



Essential nutrients are not toxic at correct doses. Some Bs are even essentially nontoxic no matter the dose. But no, clearly Amoxicillin, Azythromycin, Castor oil, turpentine, Bentonite, psyllium shake, and coffee enemas are all safe and good and will fix SIBO even though SIBO is caused primarily by vitamin deficiencies, not amoxicillin deficiency. Despite being non-essential substances which aren't even naturally occuring in the body, you seem to place more faith in that.

The liver or digestive system cannot detox or do any of the endless functions it is designed to do correctly without Bs. This isn't an exaggeration, this is proven.

I’m not sure how your sarcasm is warranted here.

I’m stating what’s working for me based on observation.
You are coming back with an absolute truth/certainty about B vitamins.

Not sure where you got that certainty from, but rest assured that health/nutrition is an ever evolving « science » as we discover new evidence everyday. It is very dangerous to have absolute certainties, we should humbly state what works for us.
 

redsun

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I’m not sure how your sarcasm is warranted here.

I’m stating what’s working for me based on observation.
You are coming back with an absolute truth/certainty about B vitamins.

Not sure where you got that certainty from, but rest assured that health/nutrition is an ever evolving « science » as we discover new evidence everyday. It is very dangerous to have absolute certainties, we should humbly state what works for us.

What you are taking is not the issue. I am pointing out how ridiculous it is to think turpentine is fine to take, but B complex is toxic because the Bs aren't from food. Surely you notice the absurdity? We all try different things and methods here to improve health, weird stuff sometimes... The issue is you saying B vitamins could be toxic, which is ridiculous, especially considering how much data there is that says the exact opposite.
 

Kartoffel

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What you are taking is not the issue. I am pointing out how ridiculous it is to think turpentine is fine to take, but B complex is toxic because the Bs aren't from food. Surely you notice the absurdity? We all try different things and methods here to improve health, weird stuff sometimes... The issue is you saying B vitamins could be toxic, which is ridiculous, especially considering how much data there is that says the exact opposite.

It is quite the opposite of ridiculous, and your persistence that all b-vitamins are good no matter what is a testament to your lack of understanding. Amazoniac posted a study just a few moments ago showing how one of them can make things much worse. Haidut has a neat summary on the potentially harmful effects of b-vitamins not included in his Energin mix. Several of the b-vitamins are directly toxic at certain concentrations, and some of them, like B-12, B-6, or B-3, can make existing imbalances much worse over-time, if used continuously at lower concentrations. And that's not even mentioning the harmful junk that is in 99% of all b-complex products.
 

redsun

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It is quite the opposite of ridiculous, and your persistence that all b-vitamins are good no matter what is a testament to your lack of understanding. Amazoniac posted a study just a few moments ago showing how one of them can make things much worse. Haidut has a neat summary on the potentially harmful effects of b-vitamins not included in his Energin mix. Several of the b-vitamins are directly toxic at certain concentrations, and some of them, like B-12, B-6, or B-3, can make existing imbalances much worse over-time, if used continuously at lower concentrations. And that's not even mentioning the harmful junk that is in 99% of all b-complex products.

Anything is toxic at certain incorrect doses. This is not the same as saying Bs are toxic. At incorrect doses, or incorrect use of Bs can cause problems, I never denied that. I am well aware that certain Bs can cause trouble, the dose is what determines the poison. Some minerals can quickly become toxic to humans like iron. Does that mean iron(from natural food sources) is toxic? Its just more likely to cause problems and become toxic because of how body deals with it.

Lets go back and keep in mind his words here:
I don’t know, there is something with vitamin supplements that doesn’t work with me, almost as if it was a toxic substance when not bound to food.

How many here you think actually agree with this? Surely you don't? True, certain Bs can be more readily toxic then others, and it is important to be aware of imbalances they could cause and be cautious. But thats not what he was saying. He implied that vitamins may be inheritantly toxic because they were not from food.
 
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charlie

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Scenes

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Just weighing in here as I’ve experienced recently the benefits of B vits, especially thiamine.

I’m using Tyronene 2-3 drops spread across the day, which helps with temps. Strangely, found myself a bit bloated and sluggish digestion. Thyroid doesn’t fix everything magically.

Added B1 at 200mg x 3 across the day about a month ago, and I’ve been having 3 regular and solid bowel movements every single day, no bloating after meals.

I’m trying to swap out the high dose thiamine for Energin (50mg B1) so I get a more balanced B vit supplementation but I haven’t quite got it right.
 

Amazoniac

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Please do.

I am not very familiar with Gerson, his reasoning, or how successful his clinical practice really was, so I can't comment on that. I think the second quote, which is not from Gerson himself, especially shows some of the ignorance regarding the potential negative side effects of niacin. If something flushes you, and leads to systemic activation of prostaglandins, it can't be an all-good-detoxification effect. In fact, whenever somone uses the word detoxification effect, I would become very suspicious.
What I had in mind is the clearance of free fatty acids from circulation and inhibition of their release from fat with nicotinamide as well. They have to rebound at some point, but what I don't know if it's above basal level as it happened with nicotinic acid.
- Nicotinamide riboside augments the human skeletal muscle NAD+ metabolome and induces transcriptomic and anti-inflammatory signatures in aged subjects: a placebo-controlled, randomized trial (if only they sampled for longer to confirm that indeed their effect differs)
- Niacin for dairy cattle: a review
↳ [50] The nicotinic acid receptor—a new mechanism for an old drug

His therapy has its merits, he's clearly not a charlatan. The actual absurd passage is her claim that nicotinamide 'shows almost no beneficial effect', but nearly all of the dose used by Gerson is metabolized to it before acting on tissues.
 
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charlie

charlie

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Just weighing in here as I’ve experienced recently the benefits of B vits, especially thiamine.

I’m using Tyronene 2-3 drops spread across the day, which helps with temps. Strangely, found myself a bit bloated and sluggish digestion. Thyroid doesn’t fix everything magically.

Added B1 at 200mg x 3 across the day about a month ago, and I’ve been having 3 regular and solid bowel movements every single day, no bloating after meals.

I’m trying to swap out the high dose thiamine for Energin (50mg B1) so I get a more balanced B vit supplementation but I haven’t quite got it right.
:dancingsmileyman
 

Kartoffel

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His therapy has its merits, he's clearly not a charlatan. The actual absurd passage is her claim that nicotinamide 'shows almost no beneficial effect', but nearly (if not) all of the dose used by Gerson is metabolized to it before acting on tissues.

I didn't want to imply that he was, I just wanted to emphasize that some of his followers, and followers in general, tend to change the ideas and intentions of the guru for the worse.

What I had in mind is the clearance of free fatty acids from circulation and inhibition of their release from fat with nicotinamide. They have to rebound at some point, but what I don't know if it's above basal level as it happened with nicotinic acid.

Why would they have to rebound? Of course the suppressive would weaken some time after the administration of a given dose, and there would be an acute rebound, but the way I see it niacinamide should help to make free fatty acids and lypolysis more and more obsolete over time as it helps to optimize the cells structure and tune it to glucose oxidation.
 

Amazoniac

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I didn't want to imply that he was, I just wanted to emphasize that some of his followers, and followers in general, tend to change the ideas and intentions of the guru for the worse.



Why would they have to rebound? Of course the suppressive would weaken some time after the administration of a given dose, and there would be an acute rebound, but the way I see it niacinamide should help to make free fatty acids and lypolysis more and more obsolete over time as it helps to optimize the cells structure and tune it to glucose oxidation.
But this mechanism of suppression/inhibition applies to both, which is why it was effective in Gerson's therapy and I thought that nicotinamide could have the same issue when dosed in large amounts; for example by boosting carbohydrate oxidation and running out of fuel while fat metabolism is suppressed (especially after an over the night fast where glycogen stores are low), leading to some sort of panic reaction and the flood, which could explain the concentration of FFA being in excess of oxidative needs. I'd have to read more about it, appears to involve some of the unique properties of nicotinic acid that make it useful as 'antidyslipidaemic' agent, however I isn't much compelled to do so because excess of either can be problematic.

You must be familiar with these:

- Long-term treatment with nicotinamide induces glucose intolerance and skeletal muscle lipotoxicity in normal chow-fed mice: compared to diet-induced obesity

upload_2019-8-10_6-14-36.png

Fastin'.

- Nicotinamide improves glucose metabolism and affects the hepatic NAD-sirtuin pathway in a rodent model of obesity and type 2 diabetes

upload_2019-8-10_6-12-47.png

:handok:

Nicotinamide is safer in general, so when in doubt, I would go with it. In low oral doses (up to 40-50 mg) taken with meals, both are safe.
- Niacinamide Or Just Plain Niacin?

I still don't know why Gerson favored such form, he wasn't after the flushing effect since he suggested (quoted here) how to take to minimize the chances of experiencing it.

The entire title of the book (published in 1958) is:
A Cancer Therapy: Results of Fifty Cases - A Summary of 30 Years of Clinical Experimentation

Therefore, when he started, it's possible that nicotinamide wasn't largely available yet. I don't know when he began using it, but if it was early on, there could be a little bias or resistance on his part. Perhaps something similar to what's happening with nicotinamide riboside nowadays.
 
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Amazoniac

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- Niacin: Risk Benefits and Role in Treating Dyslipidemias

"In the 1960s, Carlson and colleagues [5] showed that plasma nonesterified fatty acid (NEFA) levels fell by 60% or more within minutes of administration of niacin to fasting humans, caused by inhibition of adipocyte lipolysis."

"Antilipolysis and its consequences, still incompletely understood, might disclose a flaw in the currently favored bedtime dosing regimen for niacin. Bedtime dosing essentially replaced mealtime dosing in the late 1990s with the introduction of prescription extended release (ER) niacin. Figure 26.3a shows data from Carlson's work indicating marked suppression of NEFA following oral administration of 200 mg niacin to three fasting subjects [13]. After 1–3 h, recovery and overshoot of plasma NEFA occur despite continued dosing of niacin. Recently, almost identical results were shown with bedtime ER niacin [14]. Figure 26.3b illustrates potential consequences. The initial dip in NEFA represents an impaired fuel supply for the heart. The subsequent overshoot of NEFA might prove arrhythmogenic in itself and is likely due to a surge of counterregulatory hormones including catecholamines [15,16]. The sequence of decreased fuel supply followed by excessive fatty acids and possibly catecholamines could promote cardiovascular events in susceptible patients. At mealtimes, fuel is supplied through intestinal absorption and insulin is increased instead of counterregulatory hormones, making mealtimes perhaps better for niacin administration."

upload_2019-8-10_10-23-49.png


"
a) Effect of oral niacin administration on arterial plasma NEFA concentration in three human subjects. Reproduced from Carlson and Orö [13] with permission from John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
b) Possible secondary effects of the NEFA response on cardiovascular events. See discussion in the text. NEFA: nonesterified fatty acid.
"

After the OSS [Oh Shiτ Signal], there was a GSC [Generalized Sphincter Closure].

"Two nonlipoprotein effects of niacin mediated by GPR109A, flushing in dermal cells and antilipolysis in adipocytes, can be demonstrated with a dose as low as 200 mg orally—which is still much higher than the vitamin dose of 25 mg daily. Lipoprotein effects require higher doses, generally in the range of 0.5–2 g daily, although IR-niacin can be dosed as high as 4.0–4.5 g daily divided into 2 or 3 doses."

"IR and SR niacin should be taken "with food in the stomach," that is, strictly between the middle and the end of the meal."​

@Kartoffel
@Terma, check this post out because I think that the content might not interest you at all anymore.
 
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T

TheBeard

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What you are taking is not the issue. I am pointing out how ridiculous it is to think turpentine is fine to take, but B complex is toxic because the Bs aren't from food. Surely you notice the absurdity? We all try different things and methods here to improve health, weird stuff sometimes... The issue is you saying B vitamins could be toxic, which is ridiculous, especially considering how much data there is that says the exact opposite.

Be very precise when you quote me, as I am specific in the way I express myself.

I mentioned that seeing how I react to them, it is as if they were toxic. I didn’t blindly say they are absolutely toxic, I have no idea and I’m ready to debate.

The same way I have no idea whether turpentine is toxic, I only had good reactions to it.
 

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