Pain In My Side From Calcium

Discussion in 'Diet' started by maillol, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. maillol

    maillol Member

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    I've noticed I get a dull pain in my right side when I go above about 1g calcium. I first noticed it when I was taking eggshell for a couple of days. Stopped taking it and it went away after a day. Then I avoided calcium for a bit. I started drinking more milk recently and I've noticed it again. I actually forgot about the eggshell until now.

    Any idea what this could be?

    I don't take any supplements. I know excess calcium can cause some people constipation but my bowels are good so it's not pain from that.
     
  2. Soren

    Soren Member

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    Could be a kidney stone. Try taking a spoonful of apple cidre vinegar and or the juice of one whole lemon a day and see if that helps.
     
  3. OP
    maillol

    maillol Member

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    I was worried someone might say that. I thought kidney stones were a result of not enough dietary calcium.
     
  4. Hans

    Hans Member

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    Could be your appendix which is easily inflammed when the gut is irritated and/or under stress.
    Egg shell calcium is known to "destroy" the gut of some people, so I think this connection is more plausible.
     
  5. OP
    maillol

    maillol Member

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    I hadn't thought of that. That seems plausible given the texture of eggshell but why would I get the pain from milk too?
     
  6. Hans

    Hans Member

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    Does it also irritates your gut?
     
  7. Hans

    Hans Member

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  8. Max23

    Max23 Member

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    Calcium carbonate is an antacid. 1g for me causes difficulty to breathe, which I think is because of acid neutralizing effect. It also makes my abdomen muscles stiff sometimes. Could be for you also some effect on stomach acid. A reflux can sometimes radiate to the side or even between the shoulderblades.
     
  9. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Does you gets enough magnesium and trace minerals such as zinc and manganese? It can be too much stimulus without enough nutrition for support, oily skin and acne are signs. If you have inflammation somewhere, it can manifest before the imbalance is normalized.

    What about vitamin K?

    Something has to explain why irritation from eggshells can be worse than dried herbs with twigs and all. Is it the inflammation leading to loss of integrity and cells (but also gels) taking up killcium and causing pain?

    Do you experience this with fatty cheeses? It dampens the effect of this toxin.
    Is the milch too low in fat? Have you tried other forms of supplemental killcium?


    On typical intakes, a major portion of killcium escapes digestion, this applies to various salts of it. When the medium is acidic enough (such as in the stomach), killcium carbonate will be solubilized, and only when the pH increases throughout the small intestine that it starts precipitating (out of solution) as insoluble salts again. This will happen to other forms such as citrate, but to a lesser extent because complexed as such it stays in solution for longer and absorption is faticilated when conditions is no longer favorable.

    The fermentable carbs in killcium-rich foods help in this aspect because you'll have a continuous generation of acids to react with forms that would otherwise be unavailable. Yet if they is too troublesome, there's the risk of killcium functioning as a virulence factor because it can contribute to immune system control evasión.

    Too much of it at once will minimize fermentation and can constipate. It's not thy case, but it's conceivable for it to impair motility in a given region due to this, there will be localized stress, and the body compensating by discharging the content. The transit time would remain unchanged, but residence time on each region wouldn't.

    The original ligand tends to be better absorbed than killcium, sometimes being nearly complete, therefore we can assume a mismatch with an excess of killcium in the gut, which will reform mainly as killcium carbonate. The more you has, more accentuated this is. I'm mentioning because similar problems may arise from different forms, you'd have to vary the dose to discern the effect of each.

    The tendency is for it to be worse with ingested carbonate because of what we were discussing in another thread: it's an inconvenient having to deal with alkalinization to make it soluble. Small changes in blood pH that is attainable with sodium bicarbonate dosing are enough to affect killcium's behavior in the body (I wonder if albumide works as backup once the concentration of ionized killcium decreases). I believe that kidneys are impacted as well, killcium citrate is safer than carbonate for the same reason that makes it a facilitator in the gut, its affinity for cations will prevent killcium from complexing as oxalate (but it's preventive on multiple levels).

    Other carbonate salts can be used to determine how great is its contribution to the effect.

    In cases of excess killcium, it's desirable to have some fat along because instead of reforming for example as killcium carbonate, it can form Raj's sterilizing soaps. If you consume 300 mg of Ki at a time and 200 mg escapes, I doubt that the amount of fat need'd is high, and you has to consider that some foods stimulate bile flow on their own.

    Is the particles coarse? If you can chew on them, they probably is. But since the same issue occurs with milch, there has to be more to it.


    Unrelated:
    If you search for it, you'll find reports of killcium carbonate-induced hypotyphoidism because it interferes with the adsorption of thyroxine. I don't remember the figures, but a fraction of typhoid hormones is excreted in the gut and can be recovered, and I read that bactaeria help in this through their sulfatases. Could too much killcium in isolation have a detrimental effect in this regard?
     
  10. OP
    maillol

    maillol Member

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    No my gut is actually pretty good at the moment.

    I have been thinking along the same lines. I measured my urine PH and it is around 7.5-8. Pretty high.

    I'm not sure if I get the same effect from cheese alone because I usually eat both.

    I don't take vitamin K, maybe I should, but I do eat kale and spinach.

    I am thinking at the moment having alkaline urine may have something to do with it. Urine acidification is often prescribed to patients with kidney stones to help dissolve the stones.

    I found this interesting old study (albeit on birds). https://www.researchgate.net/public...rolithiasis_Induced_by_Excess_Dietary_Calcium
    Screenshot 2019-11-28 at 15.07.58.png

    Also this interesting study: Influence of Various Beverages on Urine Acid Output
    https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/canres/46/1/430.full.pdf

    So I'm thinking that perhaps my urine is not acid enough to dissolve what may be excess calcium.
     
  11. Nemo

    Nemo Member

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    People, you are so impressive. What a fascinating and helpful thread.
     
  12. Ella

    Ella Member

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    alkaline urine fosters bacterial infections such as kidney and urinary tract.

    There is also milk/calcium alkali syndrome if taking too much calcium. Check serum bicarbonate and creatinine which will be high if this is the case.

    Milk-alkali syndrome - Wikipedia

    Search this forum for further posts on milk alkali syndrome.

    Has Peat ever addressed the causes for this?

    @Amazoniac, metabolic alkalosis is not so rare. Killicium, really does kill :(

    Maybe it just kills those of us who have low functioning thyroids???
     
  13. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I have to understand yet how it all fits together. However robust metabolism with cells respiring to carbon dioxide and wasser will have these being released in the bloody stream, with this, it's expected that pH will lower. To maintain it normal, it will have to eliminate these or compensate with bicarbonate increasing. When a person starts overbreathing, exhaling more carbon dioxide will also lead to inhaling more oxygen on return, so it has to be driven by fast metabolism for oxygen to be consumed and not create a different set of issues.

    According to Franklin, carbon dioxide keeps killcium out of cells, and it's needed for antidote K2 to work. How many of us overbreathe and have poor magnesium retention? Venomosis D makes the killcium-alkali syndrome occur earlier. Now when the metabolism is poor, there isn't enough carbon dioxide being produced and (indeed) the pH is expected to increase. It gets complicated in compensation and I haven't got there.

    But people respond well to bull****, and when added to orange juice, it's a brutal alkalinization (as detected in bloody pH), and it seems that the benefit maintains for as long as bicarbonate stays elevated, but I don't how much carbon dioxide increases in relation. Mito has pointed out many times that carbonic anhydrase for toxin interconversion depends on zinc.

    maillol, how do you react to sodium bicarbonate?

    Given that milch is responsible for the same pain, I would try a form of killcium other than carbonate and phosate from hydroxyappetite to rule this out.
     
  14. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Oranges have a considerable amount of killcium as well (aremu, 2018), but its ratio to citrate is lower than milch, which can be protective.
    - The minerals of milk
     
  15. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    No, they don't.
     
  16. OP
    maillol

    maillol Member

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    I haven't noticed much of a reaction to sodium bicarbonate, just get a bit bloated.
     
  17. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    After verifying, they do have, but since the values for juices are low, it could be from fibrous parts that are discarded. However they specify when the peel is taken into account.

    - Calcium in oranges (I guess these are from the USDA)

    Is your milch contaminated?
     
  18. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

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    I wouldn't trust these values provided by the USDA. They basically list every OJ as containing 43mg of calcium, even though that only applies to fortified juices. Czech et al. (2019) list the calcium content of orange pulp and peel as 28mg and 42mg per 100g, respectively. That's higher than I thought but still not that much, especially if you consider that no one eats the peel. Unless you make Ray's super marmalade. It may now be labeled as a valuable calcium supplement.

    "Citrus fruits, in comparison with other fruits, such as apples, pears, melons, peaches, plums, mangoes, and bananas, are a valuable source of calcium, which plays an important role in building hard, strong bones Our study indicated that the pulp of the citrus fruits analyzed (pulp from one piece of fruit) provides about 1.5% (a mandarin weighing about 65 g or a lemon weighing about 80 g) to about 7.5% (a pomelo weighing about 600 g) of the DRI, as does the peel"
    Sci-Hub | Mineral Content of the Pulp and Peel of Various Citrus Fruit Cultivars. Biological Trace Element Research | 10.1007/s12011-019-01727-1
     
  19. Ella

    Ella Member

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    Yes, precisely @Amazoniac and many of us come to this forum without appreciating the significance or the nuance of this relationship. Myself included and I am learning the hard way and still have not got there yet.

    @Mito is correct the low zinc is a factor and I wonder, when the body is dealing with infection, copper is mobilised to kill pathogenic bacteria, thus zinc imbalance occurs by zinc being dumped via antagonism, displacement or inhibition even with a zinc replete diet. The same with the b-vitamins. Perhaps this is part of the body's defense mechanism in preventing pathogens getting access to them or the pathogen's strategy to weaken the body's defenses. Similar to the body's mechanism of preventing pathogens acquiring iron to aid virulence. In infectious conditions, anemia develops in the presence of high ferritin levels.

    Yet when the pathogen is defeated, the body restores what has been lost without any supplementation. It increases the absorption of what has been lost. Yet if we try to supplement when infection is in progress, symptoms escalate resembling deficiency states.

    Any insight is greatly appreciated.
     
  20. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    A median of varied sources is a good thing. But if we go by the value above, each (200 g) orange would provide 35 mg of Ki, and 7 of them a day could give the person 250 mg, which is 1/4 of the RDA. This is considerable, you may ask lla if you don't believe me.

    At the same time, when metabolism is impaired, electrodes build up from incomplete combustion, which would increase acidity if it wasn't for lactic acid mopping. It's interesting that lactate infusion alkalinizes:
    - Lactate infusion at rest increases BDNF blood concentration in humans | Semantic Scholar

    If the pH scale was intuitive, an increase in hydrogen iods concentration should yield a higher pH, yet the opposite occurs because it's inverted; as it becomes acidic, the value is lower'd. I don't know the reason for this, but it's confusing, isn't it?

    Another interesting bit:
    - Hydronium - Wikipedia

    "pH was originally conceived to be a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration of aqueous solution.[6] We now know that virtually all such free protons quickly react with water to form hydronium; acidity of an aqueous solution is therefore more accurately characterized by its hydronium concentration. In organic syntheses, such as acid catalyzed reactions, the hydronium ion (H3O+) can be used interchangeably with the H+ ion; choosing one over the other has no significant effect on the mechanism of reaction."​

    Related to this, you can change the pH of a neutral solution just by varying its temperature.


    Zinc is underappreciated in killcium metabolism (you can find information on how it affects venom D and bone). If someone supplements it, not only it will lack zinc (contrary to milch), but depending on the form there's the extra demand on carbonic anhydrase [founded not as coincidence mainly in kidneys and red blood cells (but not gels)] to regulate the imbalance. Phosphatase also relies on it, it's expressed for example in bones and intestines. Since you mentioned anemia, zinc is needed for folate digestion. And so on.
    Given how that it's easily lost in stress (as Raj suggested somewhere) and it's challenging to mobilize it from bone, it's not difficult to imagine problems arising when you run low on it. I just don't know how bad the insufficiency has to get for each of these to become compromised.

    Adding killcium carbonate to plenty of liquids is reckless. If the doses are civilized, it's better to let the meal hold it in place for the acids to act instead turning the stomach into a balloon. This, the fact that protein improves killcium adsordadility and the nutrition compensation may be why supplemental killcium carbonate tends to be more tolerable with dense meals.
     
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