Calcium carbonate, citrate and phosphate

Amazoniac

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Hi all,

Is anyone aware of the possible pros and cons of each form?
Most people that have recipes for eggshell calcium, or other forms of powdered calcium carbonate, do the additional step of letting it react with citric acid in citrus fruit for some time before taking it.
Blossom made me aware of the issue with citric acid. However it's just a small amount..
Is it better reacted or plain? Why?

And how both of them compare to calcium phosphate in dairy products?

I guess taking the calcium supplement with food might interfere with the absorption of other minerals, but still preferable than taking away from meals. Perhaps taking it along with iron-rich meals?

I'm ignorant in chemistry so any suggestions and speculations are welcome.

Edit: forgot to add that, when reacted with citric acid it becomes mushy and tasteless, and prabably much easier to absorb..
 

Blossom

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I remember reading sometime ago on peatarian.com a discussion about mixing eggshell with something else (maybe lemon juice) to make calcium citrate. If someone has access to that information or remembers the specifics hopefully they will post it here. :D :eek: (the smilies are just for you Amazoniac because I know you love them almost as much as pboy!) ;)
 
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Amazoniac

Amazoniac

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Blossom said:
post 116879 I remember reading sometime ago on peatarian.com a discussion about mixing eggshell with something else (maybe lemon juice) to make calcium citrate. If someone has access to that information or remembers the specifics hopefully they will post it here. :D :eek: (the smilies are just for you Amazoniac because I know you love them almost as much as pboy!) ;)
almost :ss
I'm not sure if it's a good idea to take it unreacted.
In fact I'm not sure even if it's wise to use toothpastes that have a lot of calcium carbonate in them. Bacterias (when uncontrolled, as in unhealthy mouths) can form biofilms fairly quickly..
 
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Blossom

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Amazoniac said:
post 116884 In fact I'm not sure even if it's wise to use toothpastes that have a lot of calcium carbonate in them. Bacterias (when uncontrolled, as in unhealthy mouths) can form biofilms fairly quickly..
I've taken the eggshell calcium for over two years without any problems that I'm aware of but always with a meal. I know forum member Mittir was found of calcium acetate.
 
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tara

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Reams/RBTI reckoned we all need a variety of forms of calcium for optimal functioning and to restore buffers, and that depending on whether we are running too acid or too alkaline, more of particular forms can be helpful for counteracting that. I haven't learned them all, but I think calcium carbonate from coral is sometimes used for alkalinising acid states. Citrate maybe more neutral, and phosphate I can't remember? I expect that egg shell and oyster shell, as calcium carbonate, would have similar effects to coral calcium, but that's just my guess.

Personally, I'm not aware of any digestive distress from the oyster shell I eat, and I was running on the acid side back when I was checking regularly. Guess I should check again from time to time, but short on round tuits.
 
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Amazoniac

Amazoniac

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Jennifer said:
post 116896 I use this technique to make calcium citrate because I found eggshell powder upset my stomach:

http://www.pkdrecipes.com/?p=821
Great to see you here!
Thanks for the link..
When it reacts with citric acid it seems gentler on the intestines. This is what I've been wondering. Also why Ray haven't mentioned that additional step to prevent the upset and facilitate the absorption..
 
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tara

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Amazoniac said:
post 116954 Also why Ray haven't mentioned that additional step to prevent the upset and facilitate the absorption..
Doesn't he consider excess citrate a burden, possibly associated with worsening cancers?
Maybe his experience includes many people who benefited from the more alkalinising effect of the calcium carbonate form, or in the context of the other foods he often recommends?
WRT calcium carbonate/egg shell, I think he's said it's not very soluble, but because it takes a while going through the system, you get useful gradual absorption.
 
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Jennifer

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You're welcome, Amazoniac! :)

Tara, I found a few different references where Ray talks about the issue with citrate and citric acid and will include one of them below. I was using the calcium citrate occasionally when I'd run out of my "milk" substitute (broth made from potato juice, collards or kale juice, mushroom juice and salt) and didn't have time to make more, but it looks like I'll be skipping eggshells altogether. I also consume horsetail and stinging nettle tea, but I have no clue how Ray feels about those. I was only able to find where he mentioned nettle root as being beneficial. Anyhow, below I've also included the part about aspirin and vitamin K in case anyone is interested.

HAIR LOSS, INFLAMMATION AND OSTEOPOROSIS
KMUD “Ask Your Herb Doctor” (2012)


RP: Yeah. There’s been a lot of publicity in the last few months about calcium supplements not being very helpful, and the most popular form of calcium supplement medically has been either calcium gluconate or calcium…I guess gluconate is probably the most popular…

HD: Or citrate.

RP: Citrate, yeah. Citric acid itself causes you to lose calcium in your urine. Lactate is another popular supplement. All of those have their anti-calcification effects, causing you to lose calcium or misplace it.

HD: And here they advertise that calcium citrate is the only observable form for menopausal women, and you’re saying that it actually inhibits some of the absorption of the calcium?

RP: It activates the loss of calcium in urine, where carbonate…it isn’t quite as soluble if you don’t have a lot of acid, but eventually, all the way down to your intestine, it has the chance to absorb, so it’s a very effective, but safe supplement, because the carbonic acid…the carbon dioxide is the form that stimulates bone formation rather than breaking down the bone.

HD: And a really easy way to get an adequate level if you don’t eat dairy, or drink milk, or eat cheese is to do eggshell powder for calcium carbonate. Like where a quart of milk has about 1000mg of calcium, am I correct, Dr. Peat?

RP: Yeah, 1000 or 1200.

HD: 1000 to 1200. And if you have a 1/4 teaspoon of finely ground eggshell powder, you take that three times a day with your meals, so that your acid level is adequate, that’s providing around 2000mg of calcium. And that 1/4 teaspoon is smaller than most calcium pills you saw.

RP: And there have been chemical analyses comparing eggshells to other…to the commercial calcium supplements, and they find that the lowest concentration of toxic heavy metals is in eggshells. Oyster shells are the next cleanest, but even they have slightly more of the toxic heavy metals.

HD: Because naturally as mammals, we accumulate heavy metals and things we want out of our circulation and our bones, and so if you’re taking a calcium supplement and it’s from an animal’s bones, then you could essentially be poisoning yourself. Is this correct, Dr. Peat?

RP: Yeah. Old cows are sometimes used to make the bone meal, and their lead content is really high.

HD: All right. So calcium in the form of eggshells is an excellent supplement for combatting osteoporosis.

HD: For those people who don’t want to drink milk, because milk has the protein and sugar that helps with bone production, as well as the calcium.

RP: And aspirin…people seldom talk about it, but aspirin improves calcium retention in bones, and it isn’t as profitable as to sell as an osteoporosis drug, as the bisphosphonate and such things, but it’s very safe, as long as you take vitamin K along with it. And vitamin K happens to be a pretty expensive vitamin, but it is right at the center of the regulation of calcium; it protects your arteries from calcification, and it allows the bone to use carbon dioxide. It carboxylates the proteins that bind calcium into the bone, and so you’re protecting your arteries and building your bones when you have adequate vitamin K. And both aspirin and vitamin K are known, practical bone-building supplements.

HD: Do you have any recommendations for food sources for vitamin K?

RP: Kale is the vegetable that's richest in it, I think. And liver is a very rich source.

HD: So do you know, for example, how much kale someone would use to get the equivalent vitamin K in order to be able to use aspirin safely?

RP: I think every other day serving of well-cooked kale will give enough vitamin K, but the Japanese have treated osteoporosis and hardening of the arteries with doses of vitamin K that were 500 times the normal dietary requirement. It's safe, even at those high levels.

HD: I know you've mentioned 1mg of vitamin K is sufficient. I think Thorne Research produces a vitamin K that is 1mg per drop and that would be enough to use alongside one 325mg aspirin.

RP: Yeah.

HD: Nettle tea has vitamin K, besides the minerals. Calcification of the arteries is fairly common; you hear about it quite a lot, and this is due to aberrant calcium metabolism, and actually to use calcium is not the problem. Because I know that I hear people say, “Well, if I’m supposed to be something about my calcification, then I don’t want to be consuming calcium.” But it’s actually counterintuitive, because consuming adequate amounts of calcium will drive parathyroid hormone down. And will deposit calcium in the correct location, not on the arterial wall.
 

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Milk, Calcium and Hormones - East West Healing, 2011-06-03

RP: The counter-ion is really important. For some reason, the drug industry wants to sell various things – calcium gluconate, calcium citrate, calcium lactate, even some fairly toxic things – calcium aspartate – things that have a toxic effect of their own.
JR: So, some of these supplements could actually make matters worse.
RP: Yeah. The counter-ion (gluconate, citrate, lactate, etc) in the calcium supplement is a significant problem.
 

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Amazoniac said:
post 116873 I guess taking the calcium supplement with food might interfere with the absorption of other minerals, but still preferable than taking away from meals. Perhaps taking it along with iron-rich meals?
I add small amounts eggshell powder to phosphate rich meals.
 
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tara

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Parsifal

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It seems that Now Foods has an additive free calcium carbonate powder supplement but I wonder if that would be well tolerated compared to eggshell calcium.
 
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Jennifer

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Parcifal, do you not tolerate dairy or are you just looking for extra calcium to target a specific symptom or imbalance?

If you enjoy and tolerate veggie broth, it's a great way to get in extra calcium, along with magnesium. I make mine with collards mostly since it's one of the greens highest in calcium and lowest in phosphorus and oxalates, herbs such as sage, oregano, dill (all good sources of calcium), mushrooms (antimicrobial), potato juice (keto acids) and salt, then strain it. I make up big batches and divide it into small containers and store them in the freezer to have on hand for recipes or drinking straight up. I use distilled water in my cooking but you could use mineral water like Amazoniac suggested to bump up the calcium in it?
 

tara

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Parsifal said:
post 117347 Why don't carnivorous animals that don't eat calcium get osteoporosis?
Whole foods? They don't always spit out all the bones?
 
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