Oils are inflammatory. ?

Theo

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Jul 15, 2015
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I believe Dr Eddelstein said that in fact all oils are inflammatory. I also have read several anecdotal posts that state that coconut oil and grass fed butter can be the sole source of fats.
Information on fats can be confusing , especially since the debate of which ones are good and in what quantities etc...is never ending.
Dr Budwig witnessed cells that were green and sick become robust, reddish and round after the introduction of flax oil into the diet of terminally ill cancer patients. There are proponents for and against oils it seems.
A MD wrote a book called "what if there was a cure for Alzheimer's and nobody knew about it". She offers the suggestion to consume coconut oil and omega 3 as a healthy choice of lipids. She also seems to like evoo .

How does Ray Peat get omega 3's ?

Any advise ?
 

DKayJoe

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Jan 27, 2015
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I believe Ray Peat doesn't advocate omega 3's at all. I'm at work so I can't get the quote up but I'm pretty sure in the absence of fats in the diet the body produces it's own fats which seem to have anti-inflammatory effects, so in theory, you should restrict all fat to completely deplete PUFA and then either produce your own and compensate with extra sugar or then use purely saturated fats.

Omega 3 = PUFA = a big no no.
 

chrismeyers

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Jul 23, 2015
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Omega 3s are just not done in Peat as was said before, no PUFAs at all including Omega 3s. All of them are unstable by nature. And the only reason you think you need Omega 3 (or what I call the Omega 3 con popular now) is because people are trying to balance other worse PUFAs (Omega 6s) with some Omega 3s. You dont need any of them. And the small amounts of PUFAs in natural foods like grass fed milk, cheese, butter, etc are fine at whatever omega ratio they have.
 

uuy8778yyi

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Dec 21, 2014
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you don't need omega 3

or omega 6

the body produces its own when deficient

basically, drop the fish oil, walnut oil, chia oil
go for butter/coconut oil/cocoa/coffee and a little olive oil
 

Theo

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Jul 15, 2015
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What about
grass fed butter,
MCT ( from coconut oil),
99% chocolate, and
coffee.
???
I could live with that.
 
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"These toxic oils are sometimes called the "essential fatty acids" or "vitamin F," but this concept of the oils as essential nutrients was clearly disproved over 50 years ago." - RP

The idea of any kind of fat being a "vitamin" or an "EFA" seems silly because you can not avoid getting fat no matter what you do, unless you get your food from a lab that takes all of the fat out of every morsel that you put between your lips:

"Unfortunately, it is impossible to devise a fat-free diet outside of a laboratory." - RP

and we make our own saturated, monounsaturated, and omega-9 fats from sugar.

My list of plant fats (which needs to be updated) : viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5723

My current focus is to try to understand dietary fat's ultimate role. It's complex.

I think the healthiest sources of fat are butter, a HQ cheese like parm. reg., coconut, chocolate, olive (mainly for it's anti-oxidant content: "Extra virgin olive oil is the best grade, and contains an antioxidant that protects against cancer and heart disease." - RP), and macadamia nut. But I think it's best to keep the daily amount of them limited. I think there is a point where too much consumed in one day can lead to problems, even if the fats are saturated:

"Some basic things that I think are missing from the above is the role of pyruvate decarboxylation, which generates more carbon dioxide from the breakdown of glucose that fats; the role of prostaglandins in health and disease (i.e., high fat diets are typically higher in polyunsaturated fats); the role of hepatic glycogen in the resistance to metabolic stress (i.e., the conversion of glucose to lactic acid and the increased functioning of adrenaline, cortisol, estrogen, growth hormone, etc.); and the role of the so-called "Randle cycle" that exists even in the presence of an excess of saturated fats." - Danny Roddy

There are three types of fats. PUFA, MUFA, and SAFA.

PUFA is toxic. Avoid as much as you can. Accept common sense in that statement and understand that PUFA cooking oils, which are everywhere, are the problem.

MUFA is not as toxic because of the difference in the carbon atoms but it's usually accompanied with lots of PUFA. Peat said avocados are hepatotoxic, toxic to the liver. The only main non-free unbound oil sources of MUFA are avocado, olive, and macadamia nut, all not things you should be gorging on in the first place. Peat says olive oil should just be used for flavoring only. He did mention that it does have some anti-oxidants but it's not something you should be cooking with. Just a little.

SAFA from high quality dairy, ruminant fat, and coconut is protective because it helps to replace the toxicity of stored PUFA. A bit of chocolate is good too. Peat once mentioned the old woman who ate tons of chocolate. SAFA must be used in context though, because as Peat clearly said from the quotes that I point out but everyone ignores because people don't like the taste of lower fat dairy, well, he still said it. Basically, get your fats from dairy fat if tolerated, HQ ruminant fat if you have access to it, coconut fat, and or chocolate fat. But don't become a "fat burner" like the paleo crowd likes to say. Peat recommends being a sugar burner, not a fat burner, which is why he recommends fruit and OJ as a main calorie source. His low fat or skim milk also is a carb source.

"If the basic foods were chosen for minimal unsaturated fats, then coconut oil wouldn't add much of value." - RP

But most people don't avoid unsaturated fats so it should be used. If you really do avoid them though, then overt SAFA probably doesn't have much value because we make our own saturated, monounsaturated, and omega-9 fats from sugar.
 

Stuart

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Jun 19, 2015
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@westside pufas
I find the essential/nonessentiality of fats a bit of a red herring anyway. Dietary carbohydrate isn't essential either. Your body can make all the glucose it needs from protein or fat. Nevertheless humans are far healthier if they consume a lot of dietary carbohydrate. We evolved to eat a lot of sugar (honey/fruits) and starches (tubers), adequate protein, and fats in range and amounts that whole animals and fruits/vegetables supply them (low pufas/mufas/ more SFA's).
So called 'paleo' diets are anything but, because they seem to studiously ignore the overwhelming fossil/coprolite evidence that humans have always derived most of their calories from carbohydrates. There are plenty of ancestral living society's who to this day still do - eg Australian Aborigines.
So maybe the small amounts of pufas mufas in whole foods are ideal. You don't wan't ZERO pufa's because, as Dr.Peat points out, it's a laboratory curiosity anyway - in exactly the same way as having a 'sterile gut' is.
 
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Stuart said:
Dietary carbohydrate isn't essential either. Your body can make all the glucose it needs from protein or fat.

All the glucose it needs? I don't see any evidence of that in a normal context. In a survival context, yes, you could eat only meat and you would convert some of that into sugar, but is that optimal? No. I'm more interested in how the body is supposed to function primarily, not secondary.

Peat has said that glucose is anti-stress. Is the glucose that you force your body to make from a steak the same as the glucose derived directly from a potato or fruit or lactose? Especially when forcing your body to do that conversion is a stressful process itself, which will then take away from the steak-derived glucose's anti stress glucose effect?

Stuart said:
You don't wan't ZERO pufa's

It's not about not wanting it, you couldn't do it even if you tried. A point that is repeated ad nauseum here but many people seem to not retain it. They build up in our adipose tissue over time, even if not eating cooking oils.
 

tara

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Mar 29, 2014
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If you haven't read these yet, I'd recommend them for Peat's view:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ions.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/coconut-oil.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/o ... text.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... oils.shtml

So if you are going to eat fats, the more saturated the better, the less PUFA the better, and not too much MUFA.
Peat still favours eating carbohydrate as a/the major fuel source because it encourages more efficient oxidation.
How much fat to eat depends on tastes, your current state, and whether you are needing the calories or getting plenty without.
 

XPlus

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Stuart said:
You don't wan't ZERO pufa's because, as Dr.Peat points out, it's a laboratory curiosity anyway - in exactly the same way as having a 'sterile gut' is.

Stu,
Never ceases to amaze me how you twist Peat's ideas like pretzels.
The ideas you presented are actually desirable but hardly feasible from Peat's perspective.
Quite different to the "You don't want" advice you're proposing.

I'd read at least some of the links Tara posted.
 

LucH

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Westside PUFAs said:
MUFA is not as toxic because of the difference in the carbon atoms but it's usually accompanied with lots of PUFA. Peat said avocados are hepatotoxic, toxic to the liver. The only main non-free unbound oil sources of MUFA are avocado, olive, and macadamia nut, all not things you should be gorging on in the first place. Peat says olive oil should just be used for flavoring only. He did mention that it does have some anti-oxidants but it's not something you should be cooking with. Just a little.

Toxic but how much?
I would like first to point out that all mono - and polysaturated oils are immuno-suppressive. Ok.
W9 > W6 W3. Omega-3 being the worst.

Let me recall this: “Only the dose makes a thing is not a poison.” Paracelsus. Presented differently: only the dose makes a food toxic.
When I read “Avocados contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic”, I tried to understand what about we were talking. Oil or fruit? Extract or … What else?
So I’ve read the link given. About oil. As I do not intend to consume avocado oil, I focused then on avocado fruit.
I‘ve found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11368579
J Agric Food Chem. 2001. Liver injury suppressing compounds from avocado (Persea americana). Kawagishi et al.
“ Fruit extracts exhibit chemo-protective potentiality against cyclophosphamide induced genotoxicity in human lymphocyte culture.”
=> Alarm signal because these extracts induce cell cycle arrest, inhibit growth. I don’t like the word “inhibition” because of possible side effects (dose). But we are still talking about extracts. No fruits. Vertical filing (Trash can).

The only study on fruits eaten:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11368579
J Agric Food Chem. 2001. Liver injury suppressing compounds from avocado (Persea americana). Kawagishi et al.
To evaluate the protective activity of fruits against liver injury, 22 different fruits were fed to rats with liver damage caused by D-galactosamine, a powerful liver toxin. As measured by changes in the levels of plasma alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and aspartate aminotransferase (AST), avocado showed extraordinarily potent liver injury suppressing activity. Five active compounds were isolated and their structures determined. These were all fatty acid derivatives, of which three, namely, (2E,5E,12Z,15Z)-1-hydroxyheneicosa-2,5,12,15-tetraen-4-one, (2E,12Z,15Z)-1-hydroxyheneicosa-2,12,15-trien-4-one, and (5E,12Z)-2-hydroxy-4-oxoheneicosa-5,12-dien-1-yl acetate, were novel.

Personal: conclusion: I still eat half a avocado with a salad, half an apple, season berries and sometimes shrimps (crevettes grises). :mrgreen:
To keep the other half avocado remaining fresh (not black), I leave the nucleus in the half avocado, in the fridge, till next day.

Let me repeat it again: NO oil is good for health. Fruit is something else, with moderation.
:yellohello
LucH

Edit: cocnut oil is accepted, of course. I consider it rather like a butter (solid at room temperature).
 
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This was the exact quote:

"Not all fruits, of course, are perfectly safe--avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic." - RP

The keyword there, can be. More on how this relates to shrimp below.

LucH said:
Personal: conclusion: I still eat half a avocado with a salad, half an apple, season berries and sometimes shrimps (crevettes grises). :mrgreen:

Shrimp and oysters actually have a high amount of PUFA. Look it up.

But that doesn't mean don't eat them. It just means that people get a bit silly with PUFA and ignore that one food, like shrimp and oysters actually have a decent amount of it, but them demonize another food that has a similar amount, but they don't demonize the shrimp and oysters, 2 foods that Peat recomends. It doesn't make sense. Ray's article pretty much explains it all, it's the free oils that are the problem. His article is written in a Q and A type format because it was aimed at the general public, not people like us who are health nerds and avoid plenty of pufa:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... oils.shtml

LucH said:
Let me repeat it again: NO oil is good for health. Fruit is something else, with moderation.
:yellohello
LucH

?

Coconut oil certainly seems good for health. And why fruit in moderation? Peat has said that fruit is the safest daily calorie source for humans.
 

XPlus

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@LucH
Westside PUFAs said:
avocado, olive, and macadamia nut, all not things you should be gorging on in the first place
Well, if you severely fancy avocados why not eat a little anyway but the idea here is to limit PUFA as much as possible because we're usually exposed to it in unnatural amounts.

Ray Peat said:
The amounts needed seem large if niacinamide is thought of as “vitamin B3,” but it should be considered as a factor that compensates for our unphysiological exposure to inappropriate fats. Aspirin and vitamin E are other natural substances that are therapeutic in “unnaturally” large amounts because of our continual exposure to the highly unsaturated plant-derived n-3 and n-6 fats.
 

HDD

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What about the trend to recommend avocados as first foods for babies? It makes a great first food for an infant without teeth and a baby might easily consume the whole avocado.
 

XPlus

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HDD said:
What about the trend to recommend avocados as first foods for babies? It makes a great first food for an infant without teeth and a baby might easily consume the whole avocado.

Such_Saturation said:
all these krill oil kids are going to have age spots by the time they're thirty
Such_, quick. We found more krill oil kids. :lol:

As much as I deluded myself into overloving plain avocados, I always remember to find them somewhat repulsive to taste and had to brute force them down every time - and I love just about anything.

I can't imagine the poor baby developing a taste for them.
 
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