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A Reply To Ray Peat On Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency

Discussion in 'Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils' started by staytuned, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. staytuned

    staytuned Member

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    I'm not smart enough to understand why the author of this article (VP at WAP) is wrong and RP is right... can anyone clarify?

    http://www.apinchofhealth.com/low-carb/ ... ciency.php
     
  2. j.

    j. Member

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    I think Peat believes these membranes don't exist. Peat uses Gilbert Ling's theory of the cell. Peat thinks Gilbert Ling debunked the theory of the cell in current use.

    I think Peat considers the prostaglandings bad.

    Peat thinks the accelerated metabolism increased the requirements for nutrients. When they weren't given, the animals died. He mentioned an experiment that replicated one of those "EFA"-deficient diets, but adding vitamin B6, and the animals didn't die.

    Peat thinks mead acid is healthy, so this is another reason to restrict PUFAs.
     
  3. staytuned

    staytuned Member

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    Wow thanks! That was super fast... I wonder how much of this is actively contested. Mead acid, prostglandings, etc. It is sorta crazy to me that this stuff hasn't been figured out for sure over the last 50-80 years.

    I was reading this post about the changes in body building over the last 80 years: http://www.westonaprice.org/mens-health ... -specimens
    What was most remarkable to me were these excerpts:
    And this guy, Tony Sansone, who was sharing this protocol in the 1930's said this:
    Seems like the knowledge was once there and then further human tinkering was involved by introducing supplements, protein powders, soy, etc.... all to make a buck I would assume.
     
  4. j.

    j. Member

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    My theory is that reduction of the intelligence of babies is magnified as the number of years of PUFA consumption accumulate. The trend of PUFA consumption hasn't stopped.
     
  5. j.

    j. Member

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    I think they've been figured out in the 40s already. That sugar helps with diabetes was figured out and reported in the 1800s.
     
  6. staytuned

    staytuned Member

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    Mead acid and prostglandings sound like they are still up for debate? I know nothing about either, but am certainly interested since they seem to be the crux of the argument around PUFA intake... at least from the above author.
     
  7. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    Mary Enig earned her MS and PhD from University of Maryland in Nutritional Science.
    There is a big difference in training in biology and nutrition. I seriously doubt they
    receive in depth training in scientific methods. These programs are more like applied
    science. RP's argument is that there is no scientific evidence to declare
    omega-3 and omega-6 as " Essential Fatty Acids. People are still
    using Burr's article published in 1930 to make their
    point. That study was disproved soon after that publication. Someone has to prove
    that omega-3 and omega-6 are essential and they have to figure out the the
    amount required to avoid deficiency. RP"s whole site is full of
    studies on PUFA. This article explains it well.
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml
     
  8. j.

    j. Member

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    Those who receive training in scientific methods seem to overwhelmingly disagree with Ray Peat, so I don't know if the distinction matters.
     
  9. j.

    j. Member

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    I don't know about those, but on the issue of PUFA being essential or the theory of the cell there is no debate, they just ignore Peat's views. They published a study to justify the belief that PUFAs are essential in the 30s. That has been refuted. They just ignored the refutation and keep citing that same study to justify their beliefs. Same with Ling's arguments that the cell theory in current use is wrong. They just ignore him. Same thing with Broda Barnes' arguments that low thyroid is the main reason for heart disease.
     
  10. pboy

    pboy Member

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    this may be a terrible analogy...but to me PUFA's are like the frame (like the frame of a car), once built, it doesn't get burned or used...it just is. As long as you kept putting fuel in the tank, the car runs on the fuel and the frame stays the same. If for some reason you had nothing else to burn but absolutely needed to energy you could rip off some of the frame and burn it for fuel. Bad example, I know... but basically I don't think PUFA's are necessary as long as you consistently have enough easier to burn fuel and are already structurally sound. But if you were growing, or somehow had damaged cell membranes due to injury or starvation, you might need a little for repair purposes...but would likely get them incidentally from the small amounts already present in most food. Mead acid is probably like a placeholder...to keep the cell still integral, until the proper PUFA can be inserted...as to not prevent the membrane or cell from having to collapse. Because Mead acid cannot be used for inflammatory prostaglandin purposes like PUFA's can, having Mead acid instead of pufas is a safe way to ensure that the cell never over inflames itself, similar to taking asipirin. I honestly have no idea what to think at this point...but all I know is that large amounts of PUFA are not necessary, I do fine with the incidental amount in food, and that almost all foods containing large amounts of PUFA are inflammatory or allergenic, or hard to digest, for one reason or another. I also think a small amount of extra PUFA in a healthy person would get metabolized quickly by the liver and not be a big deal. Only an overload or in an already impaired person would it really affect the metabolism
     
  11. BingDing

    BingDing Member

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    My understanding is that lipid peroxidation is exactly the same as fat turning rancid on the kitchen counter. And it does happen in the body. The "yellow streaks" of coronary disease are rancid PUFAs that the immune system couldn't clear from the artery walls. Liver spots or lipofuscin is rancid PUFAs and iron (and maybe copper).

    Whether linoleic acid and linolenic acid are essential or not seems pretty academic. Enig says we need very little in our diet and can't help but get enough, and agrees we should avoid refined seed oils. Who cares what it's called?
     
  12. staytuned

    staytuned Member

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    Makes sense, thanks for the share. Not familiar with Enig, will google to find out more.

    I'm trying to build up enough understanding to convince my family to stop taking omegas... so much press about how beneficial they are, hard to convince the counterpoint without a deep understanding.
     
  13. aquaman

    aquaman Member

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    she seems to be getting her wires crossed on Peat's arguments:

    1) peat says that all fats have a few percent of PUFA, which she also states
    2) he says avoid it in the huge extremes of the modern diet which could be up to 50% PUFA
    3) her suggestion of the needs of the "EFAs" would likely be met with the 2-4% naturally occurring in a "Peat" diet
     
  14. staytuned

    staytuned Member

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    Good points!
     
  15. himsahimsa

    himsahimsa Member

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    Peat addressed the "dry coat" issue as an experimental error that was corrected by one of the B vitamins, I think B6.

    As I read him, he does not really say that PUFAs are always absolutely bad. If they were, we would all already be dead. I think he is pointing out that in a normal environment we would be getting PUFAs in very small doses, like a gram or two a week, (because they are part of everything that qualifies as food and simply can't be totally avoided), and in that case maybe they could be put to some good use or got rid of... As appropriate. The modern problem is that we are drowning in PUFAs and their rancid permutations and the constant onslaught disrupts and poisons everything. We are so overloaded there is no hope of dealing with them harmlessly.

    The writer of the article at the top of this thread clearly did not read Peat for himself and try to follow his argument.
     
  16. pboy

    pboy Member

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    the thing people never talk about or mention is this...out of the omega 3 and 6 in our bodies, and the composition of breastmilk, about 95% of it is the initial linoleic and linolenic acid, and they serve membrane potential. Only 5% is actually converted into EPA, DHA, and arachadonic acid. Our bodies are very careful about when they do this because once converted (elongated) the DHA, EPA, Arachadonic acid becomes unstable and prone to oxidation and free radical set off. They also must go through multiple oxidation steps in the peroxisomes before being fit to enter the mitochondria to provide fuel. This is an energy sapping process. Regular linoleic and linolenic acid can quite easily be oxidized for energy just like oleic acid, and aren't very hard to deal with or prone to oxidation once in the body and if originally fresh. So basically what Im saying is this....all the stuff peat says about PUFAs being bad is true, but it only applies to already formed Arachadonic acid, DHA, and EPA...basically what you would only get in fish, meat, and a tiny amount in eggs. Not even milk has any of these, 0. Fish oil is like the worst thing you could take. As for linoleic and linolenic? they are pretty neutral like olive oil granted they aren't oxidized or roasted before you eat it. If you ate it in a fresh raw form it would be hardly different or more noticeable, if at all, from olive oil or something like that. So basically, pre oxidized fat of any kind is harmful, and the elongated DHA, EPA, and AA are harmful from the diet. Normal pufa, basically all 18 carbon fats...oleic acid, stearic acid, linoleic acid, linolenic adic, granted they are fresh, are neutral to metabolism and not that hard to deal with. I don't recommend eating nuts and seeds for other reasons, but the fresh 18 carbon 3's and 6's aren't really any kind of deal at all
     
  17. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    May I note RP's conclusion on this issue, in order that RP and pboy can both be heard fairly:
     
  18. gretchen

    gretchen Member

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    Fwiw, my hormonal issues worsened considerably in less than a year of increasing omega-3's. My aging process as a result of 10 years of daily intake is greatly complicated..... I suspect I might be feeling a lot better right now if I'd never bought in. What a load of garbage.
     
  19. visionofstrength

    visionofstrength Member

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    Agree, g. I've stated my view elsewhere, but if you'll allow me, perhaps it may bear repeating:
    The marketing of PUFAs is a scam perpetrated on the public so that the ten major food corporations, which control all national food brands in the US, can extract enormous profit from the waste products they would otherwise need to pay to dispose of -- namely, vegetable and fish oils. Indeed, RP asks why such degradation of the food supply cannot be punished as a crime.
     
  20. schultz

    schultz Member

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    I was reading one of the Alzheimer's articles on Ray's site and he says...

    "When dietary PUFA are not available, the body produces a small amount of unsaturated fatty acid (Mead acids), but these do not activate cell systems in the same way that plant-derived PUFAs do, and they are the precursors for an entirely different group of prostaglandins."

    So I wonder if the prostaglandins made from Mead acids would be beneficial?
     
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