Mary Enig Vs. Ray Peat - Who Is Right And Who Is Wrong?

[ANDREW CHIN]

Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking a lot about the role of 'essential fatty acids' in the body. Former or deceased members of WAPF, like Chris Masterjohn and Mary Enig, believe essential fatty acids are important for bodily health, but Ray Peat begs to differ. I just came across this article online, and Mary Enig argues strenuously for their inclusion in a healthy diet.

Here is the link: A Reply to Ray Peat on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency - The Weston A. Price Foundation



Here are some choice excepts:
Peat also asserts that polyunsaturated fatty acids become rancid in our bodies. This is not true; the polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes go through different stages of controlled oxidation. To say that these fatty acids become “rancid” is misleading. Of course, EFAs can become rancid through high temperature processing and it is not healthy to consume these types of fats. But the EFAs that we take in through fresh, unprocessed food are not rancid and do not become rancid in the body. In small amounts, they are essential for good health. In large amounts, they can pose health problems which is why we need to avoid all the commercial vegetable oils containing high levels of polyunsaturates.

EFAs are, however, harmful in large amounts and the many research papers cited by Peat showing immune problems, increased cancer and premature aging from feeding of polyunsaturates simply corroborate this fact. But Peat has taken studies indicating that large amounts of EFAs are bad for us (a now well-established fact) and used them to argue that we don’t need any at all.

According to Peat, elevated levels of Mead acid constitute proof that your body can make EFAs. However, the Mead acid acts as a “filler” fatty acid that cannot serve the functions that the original EFA are needed for. Peat claims that Mead acid has a full spectrum of protective anti-inflammatory effects; however, the body cannot convert Mead acid into the elongated fatty acids that the body needs for making the various anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.



Has Dr. Peat ever responded to this article, or does anyone here on the forum have an effective response to these points?


Sincerely,
Andrew

 

[tankasnowgod]

Searching the forum is always a good idea, especially in regards to articles like this that are 15 years old-

A Reply To Ray Peat On Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency

Ray Peat The Comedian

 

[ecstatichamster]

Dr. Peat is always right.

Pretty much. Except for politics and economics where he is quite right about pointing out the problems but quite wrong with the solutions.

 

[ilovethesea]

You should read the comments here, they address the Mary vs Ray arguments Interview with Dr. Ray Peat - The Weston A. Price Foundation

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Except for politics and economics where he is quite right about pointing out the problems but quite wrong with the solutions.

What specifically are you thinking about here?

 

[Kingpinguin]

Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking a lot about the role of 'essential fatty acids' in the body. Former or deceased members of WAPF, like Chris Masterjohn and Mary Enig, believe essential fatty acids are important for bodily health, but Ray Peat begs to differ. I just came across this article online, and Mary Enig argues strenuously for their inclusion in a healthy diet.

Here is the link: A Reply to Ray Peat on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency - The Weston A. Price Foundation



Here are some choice excepts:
Peat also asserts that polyunsaturated fatty acids become rancid in our bodies. This is not true; the polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes go through different stages of controlled oxidation. To say that these fatty acids become “rancid” is misleading. Of course, EFAs can become rancid through high temperature processing and it is not healthy to consume these types of fats. But the EFAs that we take in through fresh, unprocessed food are not rancid and do not become rancid in the body. In small amounts, they are essential for good health. In large amounts, they can pose health problems which is why we need to avoid all the commercial vegetable oils containing high levels of polyunsaturates.

EFAs are, however, harmful in large amounts and the many research papers cited by Peat showing immune problems, increased cancer and premature aging from feeding of polyunsaturates simply corroborate this fact. But Peat has taken studies indicating that large amounts of EFAs are bad for us (a now well-established fact) and used them to argue that we don’t need any at all.

According to Peat, elevated levels of Mead acid constitute proof that your body can make EFAs. However, the Mead acid acts as a “filler” fatty acid that cannot serve the functions that the original EFA are needed for. Peat claims that Mead acid has a full spectrum of protective anti-inflammatory effects; however, the body cannot convert Mead acid into the elongated fatty acids that the body needs for making the various anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.



Has Dr. Peat ever responded to this article, or does anyone here on the forum have an effective response to these points?


Sincerely,
Andrew

I think they have biological roles but in amounts that it’s not bothered to supplement them. There’s evidence that they make endocannabinoids that differ in function. That these endocannabinoids are needed for CNS development during infancy. People always argue that mead acid also has an endocannabinoid it can use instead of the AA and DHA cannabinoids. DHA becomes an endocannabinoid called synaptamide which potently stimulates synaptic growth. I think this is from where DHA brain healthy aspects comes from. And why the brain at birth accumulates so much DHA. If mead acid could do the same thing and is healtheir option then why is not the brain storing mead acid. Anyway time will tell.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Looking at those excerpts, I saw no refutation of Ray's claim about the non- essentiality of the EFAs. Mead acid, indeed, cannot serve the same functions as linoleic acid, arachidonic acid, EPA, DHA, etc., but that's a good thing. Mead acid produces its own series of prostaglandinds which are functionally different from the ones produced from EFAs. It's funny that they say that the EFAs are anti- inflammatory through their prostaglndins, when that's either not the case( omega-6s) or the effects are through immuno- suppression( omega-3s).

I do not appreciate the appeal to authority in Mary's response, saying that just because Ray was trained in endocrinology, it means that somehow he cannot find the knowledge on his own. It's very dismissive. Less ad hominem attacks and more of actual arguments would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

About the cell membrane, Ray has cited experiments showing that cells do not require a fatty membrane to exist. It's about the state of water. When you pour liquid water on a cube of ice, the water doesn't enter the ice cube, right? I think the same happens with cells and liquid water, as well as other substances.

The PUFA depletion experiment on rats didn't account for vitamin deficiencies, such as of vitamin B6 and zinc. In another experiment, the rats were given adequate B6 and the skin disease went away. This proves that rats on a PUFA- depleted diet can exist and be healthy, even without the "essential" fatty acids.

About the cod liver oil, there is a study showing that feeding it to dogs caused them to succumb to disease( I think it was cancer?) 100% of the time, while dogs which weren't fed this oil had a much lower mortality rate.

I think Mary simply ignored many points that Peat made regarding PUFAs, since all this information that I wrote above came from Peat's articles. I don't know if Ray answered them back, but if he didn't, I think it's because they didn't really refute any of his points.

 

[tara]

I think their differences are pretty hypothetical. They both seem in agreement that there is some PUFA in virtually all food. They both agree it is important to avoid seed oils, and to keep PUFA low. It is pretty difficult, if not impossible, to eat food and not get the minimum amounts of those 'EFA's that Enig says are necessary.

If there were a real practical way to eat an actual fat-free diet or 'EFA'-free diet and get all the other nutrition we need, this question might be more than hypothetical. Even then, the minimal amounts Enig and others consider necessary is so low as to be unlikley to cause harm, even if Peat's right.
In the real world, from a practical PoV, eliminating avoidable PUFAs seems consistent with the theoretical position of both of them.

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

Searching the forum is always a good idea, especially in regards to articles like this that are 15 years old-

A Reply To Ray Peat On Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency

Ray Peat The Comedian

Thanks, I found the second article through searching, but not the first. :)

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

Looking at those excerpts, I saw no refutation of Ray's claim about the non- essentiality of the EFAs. Mead acid, indeed, cannot serve the same functions as linoleic acid, arachidonic acid, EPA, DHA, etc., but that's a good thing. Mead acid produces its own series of prostaglandinds which are functionally different from the ones produced from EFAs. It's funny that they say that the EFAs are anti- inflammatory through their prostaglndins, when that's either not the case( omega-6s) or the effects are through immuno- suppression( omega-3s).

I do not appreciate the appeal to authority in Mary's response, saying that just because Ray was trained in endocrinology, it means that somehow he cannot find the knowledge on his own. It's very dismissive. Less ad hominem attacks and more of actual arguments would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

About the cell membrane, Ray has cited experiments showing that cells do not require a fatty membrane to exist. It's about the state of water. When you pour liquid water on a cube of ice, the water doesn't enter the ice cube, right? I think the same happens with cells and liquid water, as well as other substances.

The PUFA depletion experiment on rats didn't account for vitamin deficiencies, such as of vitamin B6 and zinc. In another experiment, the rats were given adequate B6 and the skin disease went away. This proves that rats on a PUFA- depleted diet can exist and be healthy, even without the "essential" fatty acids.

About the cod liver oil, there is a study showing that feeding it to dogs caused them to succumb to disease( I think it was cancer?) 100% of the time, while dogs which weren't fed this oil had a much lower mortality rate.

I think Mary simply ignored many points that Peat made regarding PUFAs, since all this information that I wrote above came from Peat's articles. I don't know if Ray answered them back, but if he didn't, I think it's because they didn't really refute any of his points.

Thanks, Rafael! Good info on the cell membrane - I guess Gilbert Ling figured this out decades ago.

 

[Grapelander]

Just listening to Ray interview the other day talking about PUFA binding to thyroid transport protein not allowing oxidative metabolism.
Some people get it.
And some people do not get it.

 

[Regina]

Looking at those excerpts, I saw no refutation of Ray's claim about the non- essentiality of the EFAs. Mead acid, indeed, cannot serve the same functions as linoleic acid, arachidonic acid, EPA, DHA, etc., but that's a good thing. Mead acid produces its own series of prostaglandinds which are functionally different from the ones produced from EFAs. It's funny that they say that the EFAs are anti- inflammatory through their prostaglndins, when that's either not the case( omega-6s) or the effects are through immuno- suppression( omega-3s).

I do not appreciate the appeal to authority in Mary's response, saying that just because Ray was trained in endocrinology, it means that somehow he cannot find the knowledge on his own. It's very dismissive. Less ad hominem attacks and more of actual arguments would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

About the cell membrane, Ray has cited experiments showing that cells do not require a fatty membrane to exist. It's about the state of water. When you pour liquid water on a cube of ice, the water doesn't enter the ice cube, right? I think the same happens with cells and liquid water, as well as other substances.

The PUFA depletion experiment on rats didn't account for vitamin deficiencies, such as of vitamin B6 and zinc. In another experiment, the rats were given adequate B6 and the skin disease went away. This proves that rats on a PUFA- depleted diet can exist and be healthy, even without the "essential" fatty acids.

About the cod liver oil, there is a study showing that feeding it to dogs caused them to succumb to disease( I think it was cancer?) 100% of the time, while dogs which weren't fed this oil had a much lower mortality rate.

I think Mary simply ignored many points that Peat made regarding PUFAs, since all this information that I wrote above came from Peat's articles. I don't know if Ray answered them back, but if he didn't, I think it's because they didn't really refute any of his points.

So tired of ad hominem attacks.

 

[rei]

If there existed such a thing as EFA it should be documented in abundance and beyond any reasonable doubt. Not one study exists that demonstrates the essentiality so i am quite confident in saying that the body indeed can desaturate fatty acids at demand and as needed (or it happens spontaneously and the body just needs to process these).

This thing will go down in history as an embarrassment of nutritional science, at the same level as the currently held belief that fatty acids cannot produce glucose. Even when it has been known for decades that ketones can indeed synthesize glucose.

 

[ATP]

If there existed such a thing as EFA it should be documented in abundance and beyond any reasonable doubt. Not one study exists that demonstrates the essentiality so i am quite confident in saying that the body indeed can desaturate fatty acids at demand and as needed (or it happens spontaneously and the body just needs to process these).

This thing will go down in history as an embarrassment of nutritional science, at the same level as the currently held belief that fatty acids cannot produce glucose. Even when it has been known for decades that ketones can indeed synthesize glucose.

How do ketones synthesize glucose?

 

[rei]

We Really Can Make Glucose From Fatty Acids After All! O Textbook, How Thy Biochemistry Hast Deceived Me! | Chris Masterjohn, PhD

 

[ATP]

We Really Can Make Glucose From Fatty Acids After All! O Textbook, How Thy Biochemistry Hast Deceived Me! | Chris Masterjohn, PhD

So acetone converts to pyruvate and the rest is history. Thanks for the link Rei.

It's amazing how at university, the professor along with all of the "official" advanced biochem textbooks emphatically stated that fatty acids cannot be converted to pyruvate, which would obviously exclude oxaloacetate and glucose as well. Furthermore, nothing in the literature I've read has indicated such a possibility.

Apparently 10% of acetone is ultimately converted to glucose, that would be similar to glucogenic amino acids. I guess a consequence of elevated ketone bodies in diabetic ketoacidosis would be mean acetone contributes to hyperglycaemia as well.

 

[RWilly]

Former or deceased members of WAPF, like Chris Masterjohn and Mary Enig,

Is Chris Masterjohn no longer a WAPF person? I did not know.

 

[rei]

So acetone converts to pyruvate and the rest is history. Thanks for the link Rei.

It's amazing how at university, the professor along with all of the "official" advanced biochem textbooks emphatically stated that fatty acids cannot be converted to pyruvate, which would obviously exclude oxaloacetate and glucose as well. Furthermore, nothing in the literature I've read has indicated such a possibility.

Apparently 10% of acetone is ultimately converted to glucose, that would be similar to glucogenic amino acids. I guess a consequence of elevated ketone bodies in diabetic ketoacidosis would be mean acetone contributes to hyperglycaemia as well.

Indeed, most of what we have been taught is lies to serve some industry.

9/10 doctors still today think insulin is needed to get glucose into the cell. Imagine that. The scope of the problem we are facing is hard to describe.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I do not appreciate the appeal to authority in Mary's response, saying that just because Ray was trained in endocrinology, it means that somehow he cannot find the knowledge on his own. It's very dismissive. Less ad hominem attacks and more of actual arguments would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

Agree, but it did lead to one of my favorite Ray Peat quotes, in his response to Dr. Enig-

"Where did she learn about my training in misinformation--I never list it on my resume."

-Ray Peat

 

[LucyL]

What specifically are you thinking about here?

He was way more vocally commie in his younger day.