Andrew Kim Fisks Dr. Peat's 4 Year PUFA Evacuation

narouz

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
"Dr. Ray Peat Fact Check 2: The Half-Life of Human Fat Tissue is 600 Days?"

http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2013/02/dr-ray-peat-fact-check-2-half-life-of.html

from Kim's conclusion:

In summary, the speed with which we burn through fat stores is determined predominantly by the body’s demand for fatty acids, and its ability to oxidize them for energy. A case in point is endurance training, an activity where fatty acids in the adipose tissue, blood, and muscles are mobilized & burned at an incredibly fast rate, to where body fat can be reduced to the lowest level possible in just a matter of time. Also, for the most part, equal amounts of fatty acids—unsaturated & saturated—are released into the bloodstream when fats are mobilized, providing a mixture of fatty acids for tissues elsewhere. And finally, ingested fats are distributed throughout the body and, following the flow of blood, are stored & show up in various adipose tissue depots pronto. (Why in the corn oil study the percentage of linoleate in the subjects' adipose tissue remained unchanged for months, despite the massive quantities of corn oil employed, I don’t know, but we can speculate.)

So how much time does it actually take to fully renew our fat tissue? I can’t say for sure because there are too many variables involved in the complex machine that is the human body. But for most people, it should take significantly less than 4 years—assuming a perfect zero order decay process, as Dr. Peat has done—from the time when oil was ingested.--Andrew Kim
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,626
Location
USA
Source

Ray Peat said:
if you have been eating PUFAs in the past, the oil change in your tissues takes up to four years during which your fat stores will be releasing enough PUFAs to cause you some troubles, so it requires some patience and also some skillful means to counteract their effects...]

Bold mine.
 

chris

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
437
Age
28
Location
UK
Charlie said:
Source

Ray Peat said:
if you have been eating PUFAs in the past, the oil change in your tissues takes up to four years during which your fat stores will be releasing enough PUFAs to cause you some troubles, so it requires some patience and also some skillful means to counteract their effects...]

Bold mine.

The bolded part is a very important part that Kim has missed or ignored.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
I haven't got a dawg in the fight. :)
Just came across it and thought it was interesting,
since everything I've seen by Kim agrees with Peat.

The article was a bit heavy-slogging for scientific dullards like myself,
so I haven't even read it thoroughly.
In passing though, it did seem like to me that Kim
might've been including fat-burning or oxidation--
which is something that Peat doesn't consider I don't think on this question
because he thinks that releases the PUFA (to work its evil ways).

So there may be faster ways of getting rid of PUFA...may be...but...destructive.
 

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
Let's just enjoy the article and comment the content not formal details...
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
narouz said:
I haven't got a dawg in the fight. :)
Just came across it and thought it was interesting,
since everything I've seen by Kim agrees with Peat.

The article was a bit heavy-slogging for scientific dullards like myself,
so I haven't even read it thoroughly.
In passing though, it did seem like to me that Kim
might've been including fat-burning or oxidation--
which is something that Peat doesn't consider I don't think on this question
because he thinks that releases the PUFA (to work its evil ways).

So there may be faster ways of getting rid of PUFA...may be...but...destructive.

You are right that article reads like it was written for scientific journal. Do not be fooled by jargons.
Unlike physics, most biological articles are easy read. Even if you do not understand the whole thing,you can get a good idea
what is going on. People often use scientific terms to impress people.I would suggest you to read the original study cited by Ray Peat. RP did not come up with the number 600 days half life or 2-3 years to change fatty acid composition using diet.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/33/1/81.long

It is a very good read, pay special attention to the table 1 and column P . This study is a mathematical model using 7 different previous studies. If you want to reject this study you are really rejecting data from 7 studies. You can not reject this article because they did not give you raw data of 7 studies. That would not help. He rejected data from 600 days studies because it looks suspicious. That can not be a scientific rebuttal. You have to show other data to make your point, not your suspicion.
The original study explains everything.


He did not even try to research other papers related to half life. I did one online search and found one. You can check other studies on half life and you will see what number they use. This is based on elderly population and half life is 680 days.

http://www.jlr.org/content/7/1/103.long

Also boot camp fat loss study is completely irrelevant here. If someone starves for months he will loose tons of fat and half life will be changed. But all these studies are about half life of fatty tissue related to dietary change, not intense exercise or calorie restriction. I would be very careful about getting my information from people who does not have advanced degrees in related field.
 

narouz

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Thanks, Mittir.
"Mittir Fisks Kim's Fisking of Peat"! :D

I'll check out that original article you linked to.

And I think you're agreeing with me on the point that Kim
would seem to be including half-life's based upon scenarios Peat excludes
because they are, in his view, destructive...?
(boot camp, oxidation, fasting, extreme exercise, etc).

Peat thinks the PUFA should be released slowly via chelation:
"glucuronidation," I think is the scientific term.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
I was thinking about this earlier since I am coming up on 1 year PUFA restricted in June.

Just based on past experiences relatively PUFA/fat restricted (I ate a fairly low-fat diet in the mid to late 90s, up until about 2001-2002), it seems like benefits (for me personally) begin around 1-2 years and continue to improve thereafter.
 
J

j.

Guest
gretchen said:
I was thinking about this earlier since I am coming up on 1 year PUFA restricted in June.

Just based on past experiences relatively PUFA/fat restricted (I ate a fairly low-fat diet in the mid to late 90s, up until about 2001-2002), it seems like benefits (for me personally) begin around 1-2 years and continue to improve thereafter.

Tomorrow is my 1-year low-PUFA intake anniversary. I felt lots, lots of improvements, but there is room for more, and I'll be experimenting with K2 (MK4), aspirin, and pregnenolone.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,626
Location
USA
Aspirin is some pretty amazing stuff.
 

DaveFoster

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
4,920
Location
Spokane, Washington
Interesting. So in theory, if one artificially promotes metabolic activity, then the increasing concentrations of PUFA that come with age will be mitigated.

Not quite immortality, but closer than anything else.
 

AJC

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2016
Messages
196
Another point to keep in mind is that PUFAs do much of their damage to metabolism by by becoming embedded in the mitochondrial membrane and lowering respiration efficiency that way. I don't know how long it takes to reverse this process, but it is another way that PUFAs may be hampering metabolism independent of the adipocytes themselves...
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,273
Another point to keep in mind is that PUFAs do much of their damage to metabolism by by becoming embedded in the mitochondrial membrane and lowering respiration efficiency that way. I don't know how long it takes to reverse this process, but it is another way that PUFAs may be hampering metabolism independent of the adipocytes themselves...
I was assuming that this was one of the tissues Peat was referring to as benefitting from the gradual oil change - as well as the actual release of PUFA from adipocytes?
 

AJC

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2016
Messages
196
I was assuming that this was one of the tissues Peat was referring to as benefitting from the gradual oil change - as well as the actual release of PUFA from adipocytes?

Yes I think Peat was referring to it, but I wasn't sure that Kim was taking it into account in his article.
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,273
Yes I think Peat was referring to it, but I wasn't sure that Kim was taking it into account in his article.
Good point.
 

NathanK

Member
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
643
Location
Austin, TX
Interesting. So in theory, if one artificially promotes metabolic activity, then the increasing concentrations of PUFA that come with age will be mitigated.

Not quite immortality, but closer than anything else.
That's one way of saying, "Just drink your coffee"
 

Similar threads

Top