Mary Enig Vs. Ray Peat - Who Is Right And Who Is Wrong?

[tallglass13]

Ray Peat proved or showed that the study with the animals getting scaling skin and tails, was disproved when they added b6. He has talked about this a few times in interviews. I think it was the Burr's that was trying to show EFA deficiency .Mary Enig passed away in 2014 at 83. So If and when Ray Peat lives much longer, that should prove Ray is usually on track with most things.

 

[ANDREW CHIN]

Is Chris Masterjohn no longer a WAPF person? I did not know.

He used to be lead researcher for the foundation, but it appears he is no longer on staff. He now has his own website and YT channel, so it looks like he's doing his own thing. :)

Chris Masterjohn, PhD |
Chris Masterjohn, PhD

 

[RealNeat]

Ray Peat proved or showed that the study with the animals getting scaling skin and tails, was disproved when they added b6. He has talked about this a few times in interviews. I think it was the Burr's that was trying to show EFA deficiency .Mary Enig passed away in 2014 at 83. So If and when Ray Peat lives much longer, that should prove Ray is usually on track with most things.

i have yet to locate the study that shows the reversal of EFA deficiency with B6. Im not denying it exists or that its correct, just that i cant find it.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

B6 supplementation increases/optimizes/normalises usage of Linoleic Acid and Arachidonic Acid, so it isn't actually showing that PUFA are unnecessary, also, Biotin deficiency, causes, for similar reasons, insufficient exploitation of PUFA, similar cutaneous lesions.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Mary Enig passed away in 2014 at 83. So If and when Ray Peat lives much longer, that should prove Ray is usually on track with most things

Much too simplistic. My dad is close to 100 and eats whatever is put in front of him; always has and always will, and I assure you that he eats nothing like the way Peat eats.

 

[gaze]

it's funny cause Ray himself doesn't even try to become EFA deficient. he eats eggs, oysters, chicharones, shrimp, squid, crab, oysters, olive oil. that's more than enough pufa

 

[Dr. B]

Hello Everyone,
I've been thinking a lot about the role of 'essential fatty acids' in the body. Former or deceased members of WAPF, like Chris Masterjohn and Mary Enig, believe essential fatty acids are important for bodily health, but Ray Peat begs to differ. I just came across this article online, and Mary Enig argues strenuously for their inclusion in a healthy diet.

Here is the link: A Reply to Ray Peat on Essential Fatty Acid Deficiency - The Weston A. Price Foundation



Here are some choice excepts:
Peat also asserts that polyunsaturated fatty acids become rancid in our bodies. This is not true; the polyunsaturated fatty acids in our cell membranes go through different stages of controlled oxidation. To say that these fatty acids become “rancid” is misleading. Of course, EFAs can become rancid through high temperature processing and it is not healthy to consume these types of fats. But the EFAs that we take in through fresh, unprocessed food are not rancid and do not become rancid in the body. In small amounts, they are essential for good health. In large amounts, they can pose health problems which is why we need to avoid all the commercial vegetable oils containing high levels of polyunsaturates.

EFAs are, however, harmful in large amounts and the many research papers cited by Peat showing immune problems, increased cancer and premature aging from feeding of polyunsaturates simply corroborate this fact. But Peat has taken studies indicating that large amounts of EFAs are bad for us (a now well-established fact) and used them to argue that we don’t need any at all.

According to Peat, elevated levels of Mead acid constitute proof that your body can make EFAs. However, the Mead acid acts as a “filler” fatty acid that cannot serve the functions that the original EFA are needed for. Peat claims that Mead acid has a full spectrum of protective anti-inflammatory effects; however, the body cannot convert Mead acid into the elongated fatty acids that the body needs for making the various anti-inflammatory prostaglandins.



Has Dr. Peat ever responded to this article, or does anyone here on the forum have an effective response to these points?


Sincerely,
Andrew

in response to that article i think he said Enig is a respected researcher and that the WAPF site is using her name even though she isnt writing the stuff. i think it was something of that sort. the WAPF stuff is in line with a lot of what Peat says, but they are big on cod liver oil, and consuming nuts. they think PUFA from non estrogenic whole food sources are fine and beneficial, so they like cod liver oil, many types of organic nuts, while being against vegetable oils, fish oil supplements etc...

 

[dannibo]

How do ketones synthesize glucose?

There are studies documenting EFAs as necessary for life, for the structure of cells, for cellular respiration etc. You just haven't seen them. Big Pharma is actively suppressing these studies which begs the question.. why do you believe your own limited assumptions.

 

[Dr. B]

There are studies documenting EFAs as necessary for life, for the structure of cells, for cellular respiration etc. You just haven't seen them. Big Pharma is actively suppressing these studies which begs the question.. why do you believe your own limited assumptions.

big pharma suppressing pro PUFA research why? arent they promoting both omega 6 and omega 3 as essential?

 

[Grapelander]

Peat does note that the body makes Mead Acid (Omega 9) from sugars.

Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Ordinarily, in biochemistry and physiology the inhibition of an enzyme is taken as a suggestion of toxicity, but when the point of reference is the idea of the goodness of PUFA, the activity of an intrinsic enzyme is taken to be evidence of harm, and its inhibition (by PUFA) is taken to be the proper, healthful situation. The enzyme that produces the Mead fatty acid is strongly inhibited by PUFA seed oils (less strongly by fish oils), and so the presence of the Mead acid in the tissues is taken as evidence that the animal is suffering damage resulting from the absence of PUFA. The Mead acid happens to have some valuable anti-inflammatory effects, and is associated with many biological advantages, but research in that direction is prevented by the lack of funding.

Aspirin, brain, and cancer

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

The fetus produces saturated fats such as palmitic acid, and the monounsaturated fat, oleic acid, which can be turned into the Mead acid, ETrA (5,8,11-eicosatrienoic acid), and its derivatives, which are anti-inflammatory, and some of which act on the "bliss receptor," or the cannabinoid receptor. In the adult, tissues such as cartilage, which are protected by their structure or composition from the entry of exogenous fats, contain the Mead acid despite the presence of linoleic acid in the blood.

If we didn't eat linoleic acid and the other so-called "essential fatty acids," we would produce large amounts of the "Mead acid," n-9 eicosatrienoic acid, and its derivatives. This acid in itself is anti-inflammatory, and its derivatives have a variety of antistress actions. The universal toxicity of the polyunsaturated fats that suppress the Mead fats as they accumulate, and the remarkable vitality of the animals that live on a diet deficient in the essential fatty acids, indicate that the Mead fats are important factors in the stability of our mammalian tissues. This protective lipid system probably interacts with cellular proteins, modifying the way they bind water and carbon dioxide and ions, affecting their electrons and their chemical reactivity.​

If salicylic acid and the structurally similar anti-inflammatories, local anesthetics, muscle relaxants, expectorants, and antihistamines, act as surrogates for the absent Mead acid family, and thereby act as defenses against all the toxic effects of the unstable fats, it would explain the breadth and apparent coherence of their usefulness. And at the same time it explains some of the ways that estrogen goes out of control, when it exacerbates the toxicity of the accumulated unstable fats.​

 

[ATP]

There are studies documenting EFAs as necessary for life, for the structure of cells, for cellular respiration etc. You just haven't seen them. Big Pharma is actively suppressing these studies which begs the question.. why do you believe your own limited assumptions.

Not sure what my question about ketones has to do with your reply about so called EFAs. However, what incentive would big pharma have to suppress pro pufa studies when governments already recommend to consume an abundance of fish and seed oils?

 

[Dr. B]

Peat does note that the body makes Mead Acid (Omega 9) from sugars.

Suitable Fats, Unsuitable Fats: Issues in Nutrition

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Ordinarily, in biochemistry and physiology the inhibition of an enzyme is taken as a suggestion of toxicity, but when the point of reference is the idea of the goodness of PUFA, the activity of an intrinsic enzyme is taken to be evidence of harm, and its inhibition (by PUFA) is taken to be the proper, healthful situation. The enzyme that produces the Mead fatty acid is strongly inhibited by PUFA seed oils (less strongly by fish oils), and so the presence of the Mead acid in the tissues is taken as evidence that the animal is suffering damage resulting from the absence of PUFA. The Mead acid happens to have some valuable anti-inflammatory effects, and is associated with many biological advantages, but research in that direction is prevented by the lack of funding.

Aspirin, brain, and cancer

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

The fetus produces saturated fats such as palmitic acid, and the monounsaturated fat, oleic acid, which can be turned into the Mead acid, ETrA (5,8,11-eicosatrienoic acid), and its derivatives, which are anti-inflammatory, and some of which act on the "bliss receptor," or the cannabinoid receptor. In the adult, tissues such as cartilage, which are protected by their structure or composition from the entry of exogenous fats, contain the Mead acid despite the presence of linoleic acid in the blood.

If we didn't eat linoleic acid and the other so-called "essential fatty acids," we would produce large amounts of the "Mead acid," n-9 eicosatrienoic acid, and its derivatives. This acid in itself is anti-inflammatory, and its derivatives have a variety of antistress actions. The universal toxicity of the polyunsaturated fats that suppress the Mead fats as they accumulate, and the remarkable vitality of the animals that live on a diet deficient in the essential fatty acids, indicate that the Mead fats are important factors in the stability of our mammalian tissues. This protective lipid system probably interacts with cellular proteins, modifying the way they bind water and carbon dioxide and ions, affecting their electrons and their chemical reactivity.

If salicylic acid and the structurally similar anti-inflammatories, local anesthetics, muscle relaxants, expectorants, and antihistamines, act as surrogates for the absent Mead acid family, and thereby act as defenses against all the toxic effects of the unstable fats, it would explain the breadth and apparent coherence of their usefulness. And at the same time it explains some of the ways that estrogen goes out of control, when it exacerbates the toxicity of the accumulated unstable fats.​

thats interesting. do dietary omega 9s like oleic acid work the same way? even dairy fat and beef fat has about 40% monounsaturated fat which is mostly omega 9 with some omega 7 right. is oleic acid similar to mead acid.

Not sure what my question about ketones has to do with your reply about so called EFAs. However, what incentive would big pharma have to suppress pro pufa studies when governments already recommend to consume an abundance of fish and seed oils?

if the diet is all milk fat and coconut oil, would there be possible benefits to adding in something like 500mg fish oil and 500mg black seed oil? what about 20mg policosanol?

 

[lilsticky]

"Ray Peat proved or showed that the study with the animals getting scaling skin and tails, was disproved when they added b6. He has talked about this a few times in interviews. I think it was the Burr's that was trying to show EFA deficiency .Mary Enig passed away in 2014 at 83. So If and when Ray Peat lives much longer, that should prove Ray is usually on track with most things."