Is Losing Bodyfat The Most Important Thing?

[dbh25]

If you are already overweight is it better to lose weight or is it better to remain fat?

It's better to lose weight. OP also stated if you have no immediate health problems.

 

[ecstatichamster]

It's better to lose weight. OP also stated if you have no immediate health problems.

I don't agree. There are numerous studies showing how wrong this is.

 

[cyclops]

It isn't the panacea at all. Far from it. Most people who lose weight end up sicker than before. Almost 100% of them.

I don't agree. There are numerous studies showing how wrong this is.

You seem to come off very strongly that if a person is fat, they are better of not losing weight, but I find this odd since you yourself are trying to lose weight. Are you special?

Would it be true to say that you DO believe a fat person is better of loosing body fat, but only if they do it in a way that you see fit?

Also where are you getting your figures that almost 100% of fat people are sicker after losing weight? And even if they are sicker at some point, how could you know they won't be better off for it in the long run? Maybe its stressful or toxic to lose fat, but it makes sense to me that its something we should do rather then carry fat on us. Bad for joints, hormones, estrogen.

... most people who lose weight are much less healthy as a result of their weight loss, and will die sooner and get more disease as a result of losing weight.

How could you possibly know that most people in the world who loose weight, will in fact die sooner because of loosing that weight? Do you have studies? How much weight? How could you know they wouldn't have died sooner if they didn't lose the weight? How could you know it is directly because of weight loss?

Your claims seem extremely bold and absurd.

 

[ecstatichamster]

You seem to come off very strongly that if a person is fat, they are better of not losing weight, but I find this odd since you yourself are trying to lose weight. Are you special?

Would it be true to say that you DO believe a fat person is better of loosing body fat, but only if they do it in a way that you see fit?

"As you see fit" is sarcasm and I don't appreciate it. I have studies backing up all my points.

I already said that I am losing VERY slowly and that is the key to safe weight loss.

Also where are you getting your figures that almost 100% of fat people are sicker after losing weight? And even if they are sicker at some point, how could you know they won't be better off for it in the long run? Maybe its stressful or toxic to lose fat, but it makes sense to me that its something we should do rather then carry fat on us. Bad for joints, hormones, estrogen.



How could you possibly know that most people in the world who loose weight, will in fact die sooner because of loosing that weight? Do you have studies? How much weight? How could you know they wouldn't have died sooner if they didn't lose the weight? How could you know it is directly because of weight loss?

Your claims seem extremely bold and absurd.

I have written up the studies here in other threads:

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/should-middle-aged-men-have-a-paunch.19183/#post-258585

a lot in this thread:
Exercise + Fasting Is Stress, Causes Obesity And IR, And Requires Cortisol Blockade To Reverse


I explained I am losing weight VERY SLOWLY and with proper nutrition and measuring body temperatures and making sure that I do everything to not lose lean mass (not missing meals, for instance...)

Here are some:

A review and meta-analysis of the effect of weight loss on all-cause mortality risk
A review and meta-analysis of the effect of weight loss on all-cause mortality risk | Nutrition Research Reviews | Cambridge Core

Weight loss increases and fat loss decreases all-cause mortality rate: results from two independent cohort studies
http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/42379529/
Weight_loss_increases_and_fat_loss_decre20160208-12633-1bw99ux.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1477942079&
Signature=j4hqdxz21IvijROgtidF9EJC4Ys%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DWeight_loss_
increases_and_fat_loss_decre.pdf

 

[Gadsie]

Being fat increases the chances of almost everything. Actually the fact that so many people are fat makes a lot of studies useless, because they are often done on overweight people.
One thing is for sure. Losing fat, if you have too much of it (which is less than a lot of people think) is the simplest and most straightforward way to increase health.

 

[kayumochi]

There's a huge difference between being lean with low muscle mass and being lean with higher muscle mass though.

all the difference in the world, in fact ...

 

[ecstatichamster]

Made my point. I’m out of here. Nobody seems to want to pay attention to difference in health between being fat vs losing weight.

 

[dbh25]

I think I can handle it.

Good luck to you and keep us posted

 

[Tarmander]

This subject has been beaten to death here. Always end up with two camps battling it out.

Basically what I have seen as constant themes:

-being fat is not a good thing. Fat acts as an organ, putting out hormones that overtime are detrimental to the organism. Don't get fat, it's not good.

-losing weight has a terrible long term track record. Large studies like the one from weight watchers show "significant" results of their methodology over ten years of like 5 lbs lost. The vast majority of people who lose weight, like 90%+ fail and regain that weight within a few years.

-losing weight is also risky. It is not a straight positive thing. People regularly blow up their lives, ruin their relationships, lose their jobs and their health. Especially if god forbid someone adds in some high intensity exercise with it. I saw a great example of this over the past few years:

One of the managers at a Sprouts near me started on a program a few years ago. She didn't go no carb, but lowered the carbs and upped the protein. She also got a personal trainer to make sure she "lost weight the right way." She did some higher intensity stuff sometimes, but was doing basic weight lifting, squats, cardio, etc.

Today, she can no longer work out. The 20-30lbs she lost is back. Her back is all messed up, she is constantly going to the chiropractor, getting acupuncture, taking muscle relaxers for the constant pain and muscle cramps.

She's a particularly horrific example, she already has a higher physical job which is an X factor. But the fact remains, her decisions over a two year period are going to leave her with decades of pain for the rest of her life.

-so in conclusion, not having fat on you is good, working on the reasons for that fat being there is really really good (inflammation and stress), losing weight is controversial.

 

[jitsmonkey]

the more binary the argument the more wrong both sides are.
Especially when it comes to this discussion
Losing body fat is the most important thing ONLY when the person losing it finds it to be the most important thing.
To say its a higher priority than X or Y or Z is misleading at best.
Is it better to be 10-15% bodyfat than 35% probably.
I've known plenty of dead from cancer / heart attack 10%ers tho.
Its only "most important" when its "most important"
@ecstatichamster is correct to try to limit the obsession with weight/fat loss having such an automatically high priority

 

[dbh25]

Is it better to be 10-15% bodyfat than 35% probably.
I've known plenty of dead from cancer / heart attack 10%ers tho.

That's a good point, the OP did not mention his current % bodyfat and what target % he has in mind.

 

[cyclops]

One of the managers at a Sprouts near me started on a program a few years ago. She didn't go no carb, but lowered the carbs and upped the protein. She also got a personal trainer to make sure she "lost weight the right way." She did some higher intensity stuff sometimes, but was doing basic weight lifting, squats, cardio, etc.

Today, she can no longer work out. The 20-30lbs she lost is back. Her back is all messed up, she is constantly going to the chiropractor, getting acupuncture, taking muscle relaxers for the constant pain and muscle cramps.

She's a particularly horrific example, she already has a higher physical job which is an X factor. But the fact remains, her decisions over a two year period are going to leave her with decades of pain for the rest of her life.

It's hard for me to believe that losing 20-30 pounds of blubber is going to debilitate the average person for life.

It makes sense to me that stored fat is toxic and burning it as energy could be bad for you, so you gotta go slow and be careful. But if you have too much unsightly fat on you, I think you gotta burn it off at some point in order to be the healthiest you can be in the future. I mean are some people suggesting you just stay fat because it is too dangerous to burn off? Seems crazy to me.

Also I think there is a mental aspect of looking good that makes a person feel good. If a person doenst like how they look because of body fat, I think losing it will make them feel better.

 

[jitsmonkey]

the thread title is
"Is Losing Bodyfat The Most Important Thing?"

The answer is its only "most important" when its "most important"
most of the time it is not the most important thing. To a degree its a
benchmark late in recovery and certainly in some at some point can be
a deterrent to recovery. Its only "most important" when its the "most important" thing.
More often than not it is highly over prioritized as a primary mover.

 

[Tarmander]

It's hard for me to believe that losing 20-30 pounds of blubber is going to debilitate the average person for life.

It makes sense to me that stored fat is toxic and burning it as energy could be bad for you, so you gotta go slow and be careful. But if you have too much unsightly fat on you, I think you gotta burn it off at some point in order to be the healthiest you can be in the future. I mean are some people suggesting you just stay fat because it is too dangerous to burn off? Seems crazy to me.

Also I think there is a mental aspect of looking good that makes a person feel good. If a person doenst like how they look because of body fat, I think losing it will make them feel better.

You know if you are young and losing some weight will get you some better opportunities at finding a good partner and a good job, I think you can make a case for losing some weight. The benefits outweigh the risks. But as soon as you get over 30, and especially over 40, think long and hard. The woman I mentioned above was in either late 30s or early 40s.

What people do not seem to understand that well is the incremental nature of life, and how as you get older, you become more fragile, and more susceptible to negative spirals. Even just an injury you get at the gym, in your 40s, can seriously lower your life span. Instead of taking it slow and easy, you decide to push it a bit and hurt your knee, which needs xrays and surgery, which is painful and makes it harder to walk and get around...which makes it harder to look after your kids, help your wife/husband with home projects, on and on. These little negative things spiral outwards, effecting everything, making it harder for all your relationships, goals...and maybe those trigger further negative events that reverberate. I don't mean to be a downer, because it works the opposite way too, with positive things spiraling out and making everything better for you.

The way I see it is that losing weight should be considered something that can cause negative feedback loops as you get older. MAYBE positive ones. It is controversial and conservatively I think it is safe to err on the side of not dieting. It isn't like giving your toddler pure attention which is overwhelmingly positive in its feedback loops. Maybe you get away with losing some weight if you are healthy and in a very stable place...but if that is the case, why are you fat anyways?

 

[tara]

Danger is my middle name. I think I can handle it.

For what purpose are you trying to assess health priorities? Are you aiming to optimise future health (in which case avoiding significant health risks would perhaps be the point?), or something else?

One thing is for sure. Losing fat, if you have too much of it (which is less than a lot of people think) is the simplest and most straightforward way to increase health.

Your feeling sure doesn't make it fact.

Do you have studies?

Did you read this:

A review and meta-analysis of the effect of weight loss on all-cause mortality risk
A review and meta-analysis of the effect of weight loss on all-cause mortality risk | Nutrition Research Reviews | Cambridge Core

"There was no evidence for weight loss conferring either benefit or risk among healthy obese. In conclusion, the available evidence does not support solely advising overweight or obese individuals who are otherwise healthy to lose weight as a means of prolonging life. "

You seem to come off very strongly that if a person is fat, they are better of not losing weight, ...

Why were you asking the question in the first place if you are just going to attack someone who gives you an informed opinion?

... working on the reasons for that fat being there is really really good (inflammation and stress), losing weight is controversial.

+1

I'm glad olive oil is helping you, but I don't think I have any of the issues you have (no pain), just the fat body.

Even if one reached a conclusion about whether it might be a good idea to try to find a safish way to lose "excess" fat, defining what is "excess" is not necessarily straightforward. Some common standards define BMI > 25 (assuming not a body builder/highly muscled etc) as 'overweight'. But since even if one just considers averages and not individual variations, lowest mortality seems to fall in the s-called 'overweight' category, I think it's a misleading term.
So one question for you to think about (not necessarily to tell us), is what do you mean by a fat body, and is there any reason to think there is excess fat (from a health rather than fashion perspective)?

 

[ecstatichamster]

okay. You didn't point out the parts that I would have.

From
A review and meta-analysis of the effect of weight loss on all-cause mortality risk | Nutrition Research Reviews | Cambridge Core

Intentional weight loss per se had a neutral effect on all-cause mortality (relative risk (RR) 1·01; P = 0·89), while weight loss which was unintentional or ill-defined was associated with excess risk of 22 to 39 %. Intentional weight loss had a small benefit for individuals classified as unhealthy (with obesity-related risk factors) (RR 0·87 (95 % CI 0·77, 0·99); P = 0·028), especially unhealthy obese (RR 0·84 (95 % CI 0·73, 0·97); P = 0·018), but appeared to be associated with slightly increased mortality for healthy individuals (RR 1·11 (95 % CI 1·00, 1·22); P = 0·05), and for those who were overweight but not obese (RR 1·09 (95 % CI 1·02, 1·17); P = 0·008).


and from

Weight loss increases and fat loss decreases all-cause mortality rate: results from two independent cohort studies

In both studies, regardless of the statistical approach, weight loss was associated with an increased, and fat loss with a decreased, mortality rate (P<0.05). Each standard deviation (s.d.) of weight loss (4.6 kg in Tecumseh, 6.7 kg in Framingham) was estimated to increase the hazard rate by 29% (95% confidence interval CI), (14%, 47%, respectively) and 39% (95% CI, 25%, 54% respectively), in the two samples. Contrarily, each s.d. of fat loss (10.0 mm in Tecumseh, 4.8 mm in Framingham) was estimated to reduce the hazard rate 15% (95% CI, 4%, 25%) and 17% (95% CI, 8%, 25%) in Tecumseh and Framingham, respectively. Generalisability of these results to severely (that is, body mass index BMI)

34) obese individuals is unclear.

CONCLUSIONS: Among individuals that are not severely obese, weight loss is associated with increased mortality rate and fat loss with decreased mortality rate.


That study makes it clear that ONLY fat loss confers benefits. But other studies don't even bear that out, I might add.

It is not straightforward. I know for a FACT that many men and women who lose weight end up very sick. It is routine. Very few people lose weight and are more healthy as a result.

That's why I say it's dangerous. Not that you shouldn't do it, but you have to understand the risks and for many if not most people, they are better off supporting their metabolism and getting healthy at their existing weight.

One study I looked at found that when people lose weight and regain it, they are worse off, but those who do NOT regain all of it, but only some of it, are MUCH worse off.

 

[cyclops]

CONCLUSIONS: Among individuals that are not severely obese, weight loss is associated with increased mortality rate and fat loss with decreased mortality rate.


That study makes it clear that ONLY fat loss confers benefits. But other studies don't even bear that out, I might add.

It is not straightforward. I know for a FACT that many men and women who lose weight end up very sick. It is routine. Very few people lose weight and are more healthy as a result.

That's why I say it's dangerous. Not that you shouldn't do it, but you have to understand the risks and for many if not most people, they are better off supporting their metabolism and getting healthy at their existing weight.

One study I looked at found that when people lose weight and regain it, they are worse off, but those who do NOT regain all of it, but only some of it, are MUCH worse off.

I'm super confused. This study says that fat loss was associated with DECREASED mortality rate. That's a good thing, no?

And this thread is all about fat loss (it's in thread title). I've been really clear in asking about how to lose body fat, not "weight" (whatever that is). I mean, who the heck would want to loose muscle, bone, etc anyway? And there was also a discussion about lean vs skinny in the beginning of this thread. We all agreed how awesome it is to have lots of muscle and low body fat, so this was about how to lose fat.

I think we both agree that loosing body fat is good because you said you are trying to lose weight (I'm guessing you mean body fat) slowly. And you posted a study about how fat loss makes you live longer.

It makes sense that loosing body fat could be dangerous, so precautions should be made. Maybe you could tell us more what exactly you're doing to make the fat loss process less dangerous. What are you monitoring? Supplements, etc?

I've seen lots of discussions about rapid PUFA depletion by doing Very Low Fat diet. That is what makes most sense to me right now. Keep carbs and protein high and don't eat much dietary fat, so your body can burn your body fat. Hopefully the carbs and protein help keep metabolism up. But maybe this isn't what you're doing?

 

[jitsmonkey]

I'm super confused. This study says that fat loss was associated with DECREASED mortality rate. That's a good thing, no?

And this thread is all about fat loss (it's in thread title). I've been really clear in asking about how to lose body fat, not "weight" (whatever that is). I mean, who the heck would want to loose muscle, bone, etc anyway? And there was also a discussion about lean vs skinny in the beginning of this thread. We all agreed how awesome it is to have lots of muscle and low body fat, so this was about how to loose fat.

I think we agree that loosing body fat is good because you said you are trying to lose weight (I'm guessing you mean body fat) slowly. And you posted a study about how fat loss makes you live longer.

It makes sense that loosing body fat could be dangerous, so precautions should be made. Maybe you could tell us more what exactly you're doing to make the fat loss process less dangerous. What are you monitoring? Supplements, etc?

I've seen lots of discussions about rapid PUFA depletion by doing Very Low Fat diet. That is what makes most sense to me right now. Keep carbs and protein high and don't eat much dietary fat, so your body can burn your body fat. Hopefully the carbs and protein help keep metabolism up. But maybe this isn't what you're doing?

The most important thing is the first 3 words of this reply of yours

"I'm super confused"

congratulations.
progress is imminent.

 

[cyclops]

The most important thing is the first 3 words of this reply of yours

"I'm super confused"

congratulations.
progress is imminent.

Are you an actual monkey?

 

[jitsmonkey]

Are you an actual monkey?

not a sheep nor ostrich, opposable thumbs. Definitely primateish.