Exercise and stress. The most important Peat thing I’ve learned

[Blossom]

For those of you who have a genetic test done such as 23andme, you can input your raw data into Chris masterjohns tool that will calculate the optimal choline intake for you based on your genes.

That’s really interesting. I downloaded my raw data and this is what I got:

 

[David PS]

That’s really interesting. I downloaded my raw data and this is what I got:View attachment 39890

The need to eat so many eggs is not that uncommon.

source

The cholinergic hypothesis of age and Alzheimer's disease-related cognitive deficits: recent challenges and their implications for novel drug development - PubMed

The cholinergic hypothesis was initially presented over 20 years ago and suggests that a dysfunction of acetylcholine containing neurons in the brain contributes substantially to the cognitive decline observed in those with advanced age and Alzheimer's disease (AD). This premise has since served...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I get my choline from eggs and beef liver. Fortunately, they are both relatively inexpensive.

 

[Blossom]

The need to eat so many eggs is not that uncommon.
View attachment 39892source

The cholinergic hypothesis of age and Alzheimer's disease-related cognitive deficits: recent challenges and their implications for novel drug development - PubMed

The cholinergic hypothesis was initially presented over 20 years ago and suggests that a dysfunction of acetylcholine containing neurons in the brain contributes substantially to the cognitive decline observed in those with advanced age and Alzheimer's disease (AD). This premise has since served...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I get my choline from eggs and beef liver. Fortunately, they are both relatively inexpensive.

Thank you, It’s good to know it’s not uncommon. I am of European decent and do well with abundant animal foods in general.

 

[Peatful]

That’s really interesting. I downloaded my raw data and this is what I got:View attachment 39890

23andme?

Isn’t that giving your DNA to a technology company?
Right?

If so. I would never....

 

[Blossom]

23andme?

Isn’t that giving your DNA to a technology company?
Right?

If so. I would never....

I agree. Knowing what I know now I wouldn’t do it. That was many years ago.

 

[Peatful]

I agree. Knowing what I know now I wouldn’t do it. That was many years ago.

Ah. Good on you.

Hope this helps someone.

 

[YourUniverse]

@Blossom @David PS I have heard excessive choline can make people depressed and irritable, does this ring any truth in experience? Maybe it's from the liver mobilizing it's fat?

 

[Blossom]

@Blossom @David PS I have heard excessive choline can make people depressed and irritable, does this ring any truth in experience? Maybe it's from the liver mobilizing it's fat?

I’ve apparently never had the experience of excessive choline but I’m considering increasing my intake so if I notice anything I’ll let you know.

 

[Aymen]

Nothing wrong with eating a lot of eggs as long as they don't give you problems.

Every time i eat 2 boiled eggs (with runny yolk) balanced with enough carbs from fruits i got Increased heart rate, increased body temperature and faster dandruff growth, are those bad or good symptoms?
Do you eat regular eggs or the pasture raised ones?

 

[Adf]

@Blossom @David PS I have heard excessive choline can make people depressed and irritable, does this ring any truth in experience? Maybe it's from the liver mobilizing it's fat?

I have experienced depression and irritability with supplementing CDP choline. I did not get those effects when supplementing alpha-GPC. So for myself particularly, it depends on the form of choline.

 

[Korven]

Tbf to @Tash, she did use the word ‘toned’, not roided to the gills!

Yeah it was a little tongue in cheek. Mr Piana (RIP) had more than toned guns

Whatever it takes..

Good to see another 5% brother in here. Goddamnit!

 

[BlackMolasses]

calories

 

[David PS]

@Blossom @David PS I have heard excessive choline can make people depressed and irritable, does this ring any truth in experience? Maybe it's from the liver mobilizing it's fat?

We are a little off topic and choline intake is an important topic. We probably should create our own thread.

First, Chris Masterjohn's tool provided a surprising recommendtion to eat the equalivant of 7 eggs per day. From Cronometer.com, 7 medium raw eggs provides 904 mg of choline. I do not doubt this recommendation but it does seem excessive from my cultural perspective. The choline from 7 eggs is listed in Cronometer as 165%.

The Adequate Intake (AI) is a calculated “target value” to achieve for optimal health. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) is the value a healthy individual should not exceed. As you can see in this table, the spread between AI and UL for choline. The AI is only 22.2% of the UL and so there appears to be a large safety margin. The body seems to be very forgiving. It is as though choline is so important that it will tolerate overdoing it for a few days. Theoretically, I could eat 27eggs per day and still be under the UL for my age and sex. It reminds me of Paul Neuman eating eggs in this 3 minutes clip form Cool Hand Luke.

source
If it is excess fat being liberated from a fatty liver causing people to be depressed and irritable, it would be a temporary situation. The excess fat will everntually be depleted.

Old-time bodybuilders consumed large quantitied of eggs. Watch Rocky in this clip.

 

[David PS]

I have experienced depression and irritability with supplementing CDP choline. I did not get those effects when supplementing alpha-GPC. So for myself particularly, it depends on the form of choline.

Thanks for your post; it is an important piece to this puzzle. It would appear that your interest in choline supplements was for its short term nootropic effects. It is easy to get wired using supplements. Have you tried getting the equalivant of 7 eggs a day?

My interest in choline is for its long term protection of my brain. My hypothesis is that the brain shrinkage assoicated with Alzheimer's may be the result of a long term (think lifelong) deficiency of choline and acetylcholine. We have known about the benefits of choline for decades. However, I doubt that studies will ever be done.

A Brief History of Choline

Abstract. In 1850, Theodore Gobley, working in Paris, described a substance, ‘lecithine’, which he named after the Greek ‘lekithos’ for egg yolk. Adolph Strecker noted in 1862 that when lecithin from bile was heated, it generated a new nitrogenous chemical that he named ‘choline’. Three years...

www.karger.com

Could we be overlooking a potential choline crisis in the United Kingdom? | BMJ Nutrition, Prevention & Health

No fear mongering was intended.

 

[LLight]

We are a little off topic and choline intake is an important topic. We probably should create our own thread.

I am also sold on choline because of its benefit regarding the gallbladder (bile production and flow because of gallbladder muscles contraction, reducing cholestasis). Acetylcholine is also linked to vasopressin and oxytocin secretions which are themselves linked to bile. Choline is also interesting because it's probably linked to osmolytes metabolism (as betaine is a metabolite).

The role of dietary choline in the beneficial effects of lecithin on the secretion of biliary lipids in rats - PubMed

Could you post the link here if you happen to create such a thread? Thanks.

 

[David PS]

I am also sold on choline because of its benefit regarding the gallbladder (bile production and flow because of gallbladder muscles contraction, reducing cholestasis). Acetylcholine is also linked to vasopressin and oxytocin secretions which are themselves linked to bile. Choline is also interesting because it's probably linked to osmolytes metabolism (as betaine is a metabolite).

The role of dietary choline in the beneficial effects of lecithin on the secretion of biliary lipids in rats - PubMed

Could you post the link here if you happen to create such a thread? Thanks.

I had hoped to hand the baton to someone else. Here it is.

Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health that we’re not getting enough of in our diet

We were discussing choline at page 4 of another thread and we thought it was worthy of its own thread. According to the National Institutes of HealthTrusted Source, choline is an essential nutrient found in many foods. The brain and nervous system use it to regulate functions that include...

raypeatforum.com

If I missed something important, just post it. I won't take it as a personal affront.

 

[Elast1c]

Bold of you to assume I have never experienced damaging life experiences and exposures.

I follow science, and do not blindly follow and always assume truth in one expert's opinions. That is the number one mistake anyone can make in regards to their health. I learn from every expert I can. You are looking at biochemistry through a pinhole if you rely so heavily on just Peat for answers.

Irrational iron and phosphate fear. Iron is so poorly absorbed as it is so true excess of iron is very hard to get, and the solution is so simple if you happen to be in that situation. Most at risk are middle age and older men while the rest of the population is actually more likely to be deficient in iron. Phosphorus is an indispensable mineral. You need calcium, but the ratio is not important, so restricting foods just because they violate this ratio is ridiculous and ill-advised. Most people do not need to supplement thyroid hormones or whatever other nonsense that is so typical in the Peat community. Hypothyroidism can be fixed by a nutritionally balanced diet and fixing nutritional deficiencies. Why would you supplement steroid hormones or thyroid hormone for that matter when you can make your own?

You are like a parrot who just repeats what he's read but knows very little of what he says.

You can eat however you want, but if you fit into the category of men who have exercise intolerance, are physically weak, low libido, poor blood pressure control and dysautonomic symptoms, don't be surprised why you are like that.

Okay well my personal experience is more relevant to me than your suggestions. Every time you claim to know a fact of someon else's physical experience you are deciding that you are going to make a commitment to ignorance. I wouldn't bother with that. I know what I have been exposed to and getting more Iron, choline and phosphate isn't really helping. Removing them seems to be helping lol.

 

[InChristAlone]

Acetylcholine is great in the right amounts. I suspect many have a defect in their genes making it harder to get rid of it, thus leading to overstimulated nerves and immense fatigue. I have finally understood more about it since researching what Peat said and combining that with research on cholinesterase inhibitor sensitivity. It's not so much don't consume too much choline, it's more about what do your genes say about cholinesterase and are you consuming too many nightshades that make it harder to get rid of excessive acetylcholine. Excessive acetylcholine like Peat said does not promote learning. Overly active parasympathetic will zap your motivation, drive and energy.

 

[Nik665]

yeah i actually stopped lifting and went back to jogging in nature. so many people assume ray peat is against cardio but he has mentioned if you have a nice place to run in and is used as socializing similar to the Mexicans running in the canyons then it is a wonderful way to move ones body. As lifting was promoted on here I stopped running and had replaced it with lifting but it just isnt fun or social for me. So now i have not only enjoyed my workouts once again but I lost the last 10 lbs I wanted and i got a nice tan while making vitamin d from the outdoor jogs with my buddies

 

[MarcelZD]

I wonder what the metabolic and hormonal effects of additional muscle mass are. Mainstream science tends to emphasise the positives, but my personal experiences would indicate that it compromises digestion and perhaps liver function, presumably by diverting energy to the skeletal muscles. I think it can be especially troublesome for those who are naturally lean and have to force feed to gain muscle.