michael94
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- Joined
- Oct 11, 2015
- Messages
- 2,419
dose was 100mg/kg in rats so a few fold less than that in humans, easily achievable
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I think you're misunderstanding the quote. He's saying that at menopause, women stop bleeding and have higher (functional) estrogen levels. Both of those factors contribute to rapid iron accumulation so they "catch-up" to men.Here's some context...
Ray Peat's articles are mostly aimed towards the general public and their tendency to eat too much of this or too little of that. This being a Ray Peat forum it's generally taken that someone that's been around here for a bit are mostly following Ray Peat principles.
So if one is pretty much eating according to Ray Peat's ideal foods, then one is already practically doing every thing already possible to avoid the excess iron. So that for some is eating very little ruminant meat, not cooking in cast iron, avoiding all iron enriched refined foods, etc., etc.
Even the Almighty Ray Peat gets things out of context, as evidenced by myself just now while reading his "Iron's Dangers" write up...
"Women absorb iron much more efficiently than men do. From a similar meal, women will normally absorb three times as much iron as men do. When pregnant, their higher estrogen levels cause them to absorb about nine times as much as men. Every time a woman menstruates, she loses a little iron, so that by the age of 50 she is likely to have less iron stored in her tissues than a man does at the same age, but by the age of 65 women generally have as much excess iron in their tissues as men do. (During those 15 years, women seem to store iron at a faster rate than men do, probably because they have more estrogen.) At this age their risk of dying from a heart attack is the same as that of men."
Ray seems to fail to consider that maybe those women went through menopause and guess what... Stopped menstruating. He seems to think it's somehow tied to that dreaded estrogen.
So if one is already following Ray Peat principles and came from a WOE that already was susceptible to iron deficiency for decades AND one fails to still eat enough red meat... then yes it is very possible to become iron deficiency anemic.
To think otherwise is foolish.
Just wanted to post my full iron related blood test results in case these help with any other insights:
IRON, TOTAL: 88 (normal range 40-175 mcg/dL)
IRON BINDING CAPACITY: 402 (normal range 250-450 mcg/dL)
% SATURATION: 22 (normal range 15-50%)
FERRITIN: 7 (normal range 10-154 ng/mL)
Just my 2 cents here:
Past 3 months were the worst of my life, health wise. ZERO ******* drive and power, hair loss, pale skin, always cold, water retention etc.
Finally had bloodwork done and results showed im iron deficient (i drink tons of coffee and rarely eat meat)...
Biggest giveaway for me that i might be iron deficient were angular cheilitis.
I am feeling so much better after only 2 weeks of supping iron it's insane. I have never had such clear and awesome results taking anything. I'm well rested and can concentrate after like 6h of sleep now, before I needed like 11 for this performance lol. My skin is ******* glowing I can hardly believe it
Might be a bit hypo, got high TSH. Dunno if the iron tackles that, certainly feels like it. IF you have low iron levels but don't want to supp because of peaty advice, I would advise you to try it for at least a week or something, and see if symptoms (energy, body temp, paleness whatever) improve.
For me the question will be: When do I stop the supplementation?
People are overlooking the role of copper here, specifically multi-copper ferroxidases (MCF). Morley Robbins has been researching this for several years now, check out his appearances on Matt Blackburn's podcast and Extreme Health Radio. I don't agree with some of the conclusions he has come to, though.
It's important to note that many of the symptoms attributed to "iron deficiency" in this thread actually sound like thyroid deficiency. I usually attribute angular cheilitis to riboflavin deficiency, not iron deficiency. Riboflavin is also important for hemoglobin formation, which is the true clinical marker of anemia.
In my nascent and evolving view of this particular arena, high levels of serum copper are usually not a positive finding. They are consistent with many chronic diseases. I think it's because the copper is not being properly managed. Copper is very similar to iron and this extends to an ability to create free radicals. Morley is afraid of Metallothionein because it's an incredibly strong binder of copper, and he thinks it prevents copper from being incorporated in MCFs. But I've read in one study that is not the case, MT does release copper in appropriate situations. I need to review that, though.
In states of copper deficiency and copper dysregulation, fatty liver occurs. A fatty liver is less functional and won't be able to convert T4 to T3. Copper supplementation has been shown to correct hemoglobin deficiency.
It would be a more appropriate course of action to correct your copper status instead of supplementing iron. Liver has many of the nutrients involved in hemoglobin production.
My problem with Morley Robbins is his take on vitamin D3. Say to not take it but recommends taking cold liver oil whit have synthetic vitamin D3 added.People are overlooking the role of copper here, specifically multi-copper ferroxidases (MCF). Morley Robbins has been researching this for several years now, check out his appearances on Matt Blackburn's podcast and Extreme Health Radio. I don't agree with some of the conclusions he has come to, though.
It's important to note that many of the symptoms attributed to "iron deficiency" in this thread actually sound like thyroid deficiency. I usually attribute angular cheilitis to riboflavin deficiency, not iron deficiency. Riboflavin is also important for hemoglobin formation, which is the true clinical marker of anemia.
In my nascent and evolving view of this particular arena, high levels of serum copper are usually not a positive finding. They are consistent with many chronic diseases. I think it's because the copper is not being properly managed. Copper is very similar to iron and this extends to an ability to create free radicals. Morley is afraid of Metallothionein because it's an incredibly strong binder of copper, and he thinks it prevents copper from being incorporated in MCFs. But I've read in one study that is not the case, MT does release copper in appropriate situations. I need to review that, though.
In states of copper deficiency and copper dysregulation, fatty liver occurs. A fatty liver is less functional and won't be able to convert T4 to T3. Copper supplementation has been shown to correct hemoglobin deficiency.
It would be a more appropriate course of action to correct your copper status instead of supplementing iron. Liver has many of the nutrients involved in hemoglobin production.
My problem with Morley Robbins is his take on vitamin D3. Say to not take it but recommends taking cold liver oil whit have synthetic vitamin D3 added.
Say that vitamin D3 level above 21 has no benefit but ignores all other studies that say otherwise. If I take 5.000 iu of vitamin D3 I fell more energy and sleep better.
I am doing a little experiment on myself. After taking vitamin D3 5.000 iu for many months, my blood result comes at 89,8 ng/ml. I stopped taking it and my sleep becomes worse and fell less energy. So, I will be 3 months without vitamin D3 to see If this coming down my ceruloplasmin will comes high, since Morley says that vitamin D3 lowers ceruloplasmin.yeah morley wrong on many levels. He is right about the importance of proper iron metabolism, ceruloplasmin etc and I like that he focuses on getting most of minerals and vitamins from dietary sources and avoiding supplementation in general. But in some cases that doesnt work. The whole ritualistic theme in the community follow the protocol everyone is the same and it will solve everyones problem. That is false.
Could you let us know if increasing the iron with the fortified cornflakes helped the fatigue from low iron?Inputting my experience here if it helps:
I have not had Iron tests done, but had major anemia symptoms - I felt like I was going to pass out honestly and was sleeping 10 hours a day easy. This is after I
- started limiting more red meat - meat makes me smell absolutely rancid and I don't really find myself craving meat too often.
- drinking more coffee
- eating more gelatin (for copper)
- decently high milk intake
I feel like even when I was eating red meat more often I had less of these symptoms, but I'm starting to believe I may have had it even when eating it once a day. I personally feel like peating without meat (combined with higher copper intake, dairy, coffee) all do a lot to lower iron when combined - almost works too well.
Just ate a bowl of corn flakes (high in iron) today and feel A LOT better. Going to start experimenting eating a bowl of corn flakes or other cereal (many seem to be higher in iron) every day for a few days and see if it continues.
Yea so when I look back - my problem I think was avoiding red meat - I am not sure if it was because of iron but there is also something else in red meat that people need to digest dairy I forgot the name it was a type of acid - I eat red meat everyday and feel very good again - without red meat everyday I become hypometabolic and can't tolerate large amounts of dairyCould you let us know if increasing the iron with the fortified cornflakes helped the fatigue from low iron?
some acid in red meat that helps digest dairy? what is that?Yea so when I look back - my problem I think was avoiding red meat - I am not sure if it was because of iron but there is also something else in red meat that people need to digest dairy I forgot the name it was a type of acid - I eat red meat everyday and feel very good again - without red meat everyday I become hypometabolic and can't tolerate large amounts of dairy
My iron sources now are red meat and pineapple cause I eat a lot - it has a high copper content to balance so I think it's particularly useful for this