Iron Deficiency Alters Serum Prolactin (high Prolactin)

[Mossy]

Look at the american diet high iron low anti oxidants...

I can note that I find your iron findings interesting, as I think I may fit the bill, but I find the badgering of the American diet a bit of a scapegoat and cliche, in that it's far too complex and varied to use it as a blanket application. For instance, to stick to stereotypes, if the American diet is classically high in iron, it is also classically high in milk consumption. So, as haidut notes, wouldn't that high milk consumption counter high iron consumption? Also, my American upbringing, contrary to the stereotype, consisted of limited amounts of processed foods, and primarily whole foods; yet, I still have what you're describing as possible iron deficiencies.

So im just gonna take reckless amounts because a blogger wrote an article about it. Its madness

Once again, no disrespect, as you clearly have done some research on iron, but in the name of healthy debate and getting to the truth, are you not on the level of a blogger too, as opposed to Peat's level of a doctor?

 

[Cirion]

I've seen Peat mention that "excess iron" is the problem, not iron in any amount (unlike PUFA). He has also said supplementing iron/eating iron-fortified foods is almost always a bad idea even with low iron and that the healthy way to increase iron would be to eat iron-rich foods such as liver.

I am pretty sure (need to double check) that Chris Masterjohn said that some people can not get their iron stores up just from food sources. Much like how some people can't get their iron stores down sufficiently, just from avoiding Iron heavy foods. If you're of the former camp, no, eating iron-rich foods is not enough.

So really there are 3 camps of people

- Normal people who can maintain normal iron levels through normal means (no supplementation or blood donations necessary) and without strict avoidance of iron heavy foods except for maybe fortified breads and cereals
- People who can not lower high iron levels w/o special intervention
- People who can not increase iron levels w/o special intervention

What is Ray's answer to someone who can not increase Iron stores through food sources alone then?

 

[lampofred]

I am pretty sure (need to double check) that Chris Masterjohn said that some people can not get their iron stores up just from food sources. Much like how some people can't get their iron stores down sufficiently, just from avoiding Iron heavy foods. If you're of the former camp, no, eating iron-rich foods is not enough.

So really there are 3 camps of people

- Normal people who can maintain normal iron levels through normal means (no supplementation or blood donations necessary) and without strict avoidance of iron heavy foods except for maybe fortified breads and cereals
- People who can not lower high iron levels w/o special intervention
- People who can not increase iron levels w/o special intervention

What is Ray's answer to someone who can not increase Iron stores through food sources alone then?

I guess he would say something like try to figure out why food is not increasing your iron as opposed to resorting to directly supplementing iron, because he has mentioned that even blatant "iron-deficiency anemia" probably has another root cause (such as heavy metal toxicity) except in the most rarest of cases, and that supplementing iron would be only a temporary solution (by forcing an increase of red blood cell production) that might lead to problems in the long run.

I'm not saying Dr. Peat is infallible, and I'm not trying to insult Douglas Ek (really appreciate the effort in doing research and the time/generosity in sharing the findings with everyone) but when someone who has proved himself to be of highly above average intelligence and far ahead of the mainstream curve is adamant in saying iron supplementation is more likely than not a bad idea and has been researching for decades, he should probably not be overridden by a layperson who found a few studies on Google at work.

But... at the end of the day, I realize that each person is different and that maybe iron supplementation is the right thing for some. Peat would probably say to trust your internal guidance system above all.

 

[Cirion]

Indeed there is a reason for it - Gene defect. Much like how gene defect can cause iron overload. There is no way to fix this, thus, yes supplementation IS required.

I'll have to dig through Chris's article to find out the exact gene defect (I think you may be able to test for this as well?).

That said, there CAN be other reasons that iron is really low, though. For example - and Douglas mentions this point - supplementing other minerals willy-nilly can get you into trouble. Like zinc. Increasing zinc artificially can cause iron levels to tank. Just one example. One of the reasons I am now actually dropping almost all my supplements. Most of them are more trouble than they're worth.

True there can be other reasons, so as always, it is best to investigate and figure out what is going on. I just think it is unfair to rule out the possibility that someone has a gene defect preventing them from assimilating iron properly without testing for it.

 

[Douglas Ek]

I can note that I find your iron findings interesting, as I think I may fit the bill, but I find the badgering of the American diet a bit of a scapegoat and cliche, in that it's far too complex and varied to use it as a blanket application. For instance, to stick to stereotypes, if the American diet is classically high in iron, it is also classically high in milk consumption. So, as haidut notes, wouldn't that high milk consumption counter high iron consumption? Also, my American upbringing, contrary to the stereotype, consisted of limited amounts of processed foods, and primarily whole foods; yet, I still have what you're describing as possible iron deficiencies.


Once again, no disrespect, as you clearly have done some research on iron, but in the name of healthy debate and getting to the truth, are you not on the level of a blogger too, as opposed to Peat's level of a doctor?

Yes for sure I'm just here doing this to make people aware and showing research on the subject I've found. With the American diet, I meant a tendency to eat food without a lot of nutritional value causes iron excess, not deficiency as you mentioned. Eating whole foods and healthy foods like you mentioned in my theory and view would help bring iron down. So you got it reversed. Whole foods have more antioxidant power thus helping to maintain iron levels at a balanced level. With the American diet, I mean McDonalds and sodas where there's not much antioxidant power and the stress of PUFA in this type of fast food diet would deplete antioxidant further increase cortisol cause obesity causing even more inflammation etc on the body. With depleted vitamin E and C from this type of diet, your iron levels would go up. And if you look at studies malnourished people tend to have low iron and obese have higher iron. And I'm not making the American diet a scapegoat. Many Americans might have Iron deficiency and many Americans might have iron overload. I think a tendency towards iron overload is more common among Americans because a big portion eat a fast food based diet low in antioxidants to protect against iron excess. Do you get what I'm saying? Actually, if you eat a plant-based diet even if high in iron vegetables like spinach you rarely see iron excess. Even healthy whole food diets because a lot of nutrients in coffee, plants etc inhibits iron absorption and contains antioxidants defending against to much iron. So, in my opinion, the healthier you eat the less risk of having excess iron is there and you might even have a bigger risk of iron deficiency. On top of that, you have to account for people that have a genetic disorder like hemochromatosis inhibited hepcidin production from the liver resulting in greater uptake of iron from diet resulting in iron overload. Just as some people have overexpression of hepcidin thus resulting in an inability to absorb enough iron from diet alone. So It's not just purely down to eating and lifestyle there are genetic factors involved. And there's not a one glove fit all. All I did here on this thread was to lift out the correlation between low iron and high TSH and high prolactin. I'm not trying to say that everyone needs to supplement with iron every day as that would be very dumb. I'm saying people should get tested to evaluate their situation and iron status and decide themselves if their symptoms may be of overload or deficiency or maybe something completely different. What I'm against is when a group of people who had success donating blood because they had hemochromatosis try to convince other people to donate blood who don't know if they have hemochromatosis. That's dangerous and it's like being vegan pushing veganism just for the sake of it. I'm also here to learn and discuss and the research I've found on iron shows that there's another side of the coin if you know what I mean. Low iron seems to affect metabolism, motivation through thyroid and dopamine and hair loss from excess prolactin thus resulting in the symptoms of iron deficiency, Iron overload generally seems to cause autoimmune diseases, diabetes, organ damage, liver, heart, testicles thus resulting in low androgens and many other symptoms that even mimic low iron. And just as there's a divided group on this forum about their views on iron there's an divided group in the world of science and scientist about it aswell. I'm somewhere in the middle as I think low iron can cause problems and excess iron can surely cause problems.

 

[Douglas Ek]

I've seen Peat mention that "excess iron" is the problem, not iron in any amount (unlike PUFA). He has also said supplementing iron/eating iron-fortified foods is almost always a bad idea even with low iron and that the healthy way to increase iron would be to eat iron-rich foods such as liver.

I wish it was that easy for me at least. I've seen a lot of people try to get their stores up without supplements. Specially women with period what about them? I've seen many women eat liver, meat etc and their numbers still feel only when put on high dose iron they manage to shift the scale

 

[Douglas Ek]

Planning on testing soon but not sure which one I should get:
One test has: Iron, TIBC, Ferritin
Another test ($50 extra): CBC, ESR, Iron & TIBC, Ferritin, Vitamin B12, Folate

But I had tested my B12 and Folate before and they were both fine

• B12: 610 pmol/L (Sufficiency >220 pmol/L)
• Folate 31.7 (>8.8 nmol/L)

So I don't know if it is worth getting the $50 extra one for the CBC and ESR.

The only testing service available to me doesn't have saturation testing available and I am done bothering with doctors.

Anecdotally I ate some oysters everyday last week and found that my feet weren't cool in the evening.

Iron, TIBC and ferritin should get you a fair enough picture in my opinion

 

[Arclight]

This thread is an extremely interesting read to me.

I am a 30 year old male and my ferritin levels has been kind of flatlined around 6-10 ever since I first began to track them around five years ago. When my doctor didn't find any blood in stool samples, it was ignored, seen as nothing worth investigate further, as I wasn't anemic. My hemoglobin is always at the lower end of the reference range.

However, since I'm displaying signs often attributed to iron deficiency, like hair shedding, weakened hair structure, cold hands/feet and lots of brain fog and poor working memory, I haven't really let go of the thought that iron has some part in this.

But since I'm an avid reader of Peat, I have hesitated all these years, to supplement therapeutic doses of iron. I have also eaten a Peat inspired diet during these years.

For a while, maybe a month, I bought and cooked pure beef blood and ate 100 grams a day. That's a lot of heme iron.
But even then my ferritin levels didn't really change.
Nowadays I eat some red meat every day.

The one thing that's still holding me back when it comes to trying large doses of iron is the idea that maybe the iron I ingest gets stored in tissues and organ without my ferritin reflecting it. I have heard theories that ferritin and other blood markers can be low even when you are overburdened with stored iron that the body can't release and use properly.

I'm really at crossroads here. And I'm feeling quite bad, these brain fog issues and hair shedding is really bothering me, action is needed.

The only alternative I guess would be trying T3 supplementation. My free T3 and T4 are at normal ref. range, and my TSH around 1.1. My temps often reach 98.4 mid day, resting pulse is around 65.
Taking thyroid without obvious signs of full blown hypothyroidism is for me almost as big of a decision as trying big doses of iron.

These are my latest iron labs:

Iron: 16 µmol/L (ref. 9-34)
Transferrin/TIBC 2.9 g/L (ref. 1.9-3.2)
Ferritin: 8 µg/L (ref. 20-275)
Transferrin saturation: 22 %

I guess the somewhat elevated TIBC and low ferritin could indicate some kind of iron deficiency, but I have no idea what could be causing this, since my diet has been providing so much iron lately.
If my body needed iron, it has been there to absorb. I read that the body always upregulates iron absorption when deficient.
I think lots about these things, but I struggle to sort things out and don't know where to start really.

I appreciate this ongoing discussion.

 

[lampofred]

This thread is an extremely interesting read to me.

I am a 30 year old male and my ferritin levels has been kind of flatlined around 6-10 ever since I first began to track them around five years ago. When my doctor didn't find any blood in stool samples, it was ignored, seen as nothing worth investigate further, as I wasn't anemic. My hemoglobin is always at the lower end of the reference range.

However, since I'm displaying signs often attributed to iron deficiency, like hair shedding, weakened hair structure, cold hands/feet and lots of brain fog and poor working memory, I haven't really let go of the thought that iron has some part in this.

But since I'm an avid reader of Peat, I have hesitated all these years, to supplement therapeutic doses of iron. I have also eaten a Peat inspired diet during these years.

For a while maybe a month, I bought and cooked pure beef blood, and ate 100 grams a day. That's a lot of heme iron.
But even then my ferritin levels didn't really change.
Nowadays I eat some red meat every day.

The one thing that's still holding me back when it comes to trying large doses of iron is the idea that maybe the iron I ingest gets stored in tissues and organ without my ferritin reflecting it. I have heard theories that ferritin and other blood markers can be low even when you are overburdened with stored iron that the body can't release and use properly.

I'm really at crossroads here. And I'm feeling quite bad, these brain fog issues and hair shedding is really bothering me, action is needed.

The only alternative I guess would be trying T3 supplementation. My free T3 and T4 are at lower ref. range, and my TSH around 1.1.
Taking thyroid without obvious signs of full blown hypothyroidism is for me almost as big of a decision as trying big doses of iron.

These are my latest iron labs:

Iron: 16 µmol/L (ref. 9-34)
Transferrin/TIBC 2.9 g/L (ref. 1.9-3.2)
Ferritin: 8 µg/L (ref. 20-275)
Transferrin saturation: 22 %

I guess the somewhat elevated TIBC and low ferritin could indicate some kind of iron deficiency, but I have no idea what could be causing this, since my diet has been providing so much iron lately.
If my body needed iron, it has been there to absorb. I read that the body always upregulates iron absorption when deficient.
I think lots about these things, but I struggle to sort things out and don't know where to start really.

I appreciate this ongoing discussion.

Does high dose gelatin do anything for your symptoms?

I don't remember exactly where I read it or what the biological mechanism at work is, but I've heard iron deficiency symptoms are often helped by increasing gelatin intake.

This is a guess but people might try to supplement iron as a way to force up dopamine when the real issue is serotonin dominance + low GABA, maybe due to excess estrogen. So serotonin lowering things like gelatin, thyroid, bag breathing/breath retention might help (but not caffeine, since it lowers GABA, although it might help in the long run by removing heavy metals).

 

[dbh25]

The one thing that's still holding me back when it comes to trying large doses of iron

The supplement I took had 10mg per serving, 60% of the rda value. I was taking 1-2 doses /day for a few months.

 

[Arclight]

The supplement I took had 10mg per serving, 60% of the rda value. I was taking 1-2 doses /day for a few months.

You took Floradix, right? I have tried it for a month maybe, didn't notice any improvement from it, or change in blood markers, but maybe it needs to be taken for longer periods. 150 grams of red meat a day should be a similar dose, that I have also tried, without any good or bad reactions.

 

[Arclight]

Does high dose gelatin do anything for your symptoms?

I don't remember exactly where I read it or what the biological mechanism at work is, but I've heard iron deficiency symptoms are often helped by increasing gelatin intake.

This is a guess but people might try to supplement iron as a way to force up dopamine when the real issue is serotonin dominance + low GABA, maybe due to excess estrogen. So serotonin lowering things like gelatin, thyroid, bag breathing/breath retention might help (but not caffeine, since it lowers GABA, although it might help in the long run by removing heavy metals).

I have included gelatin and glycine supplementation several longer periods during this time.
Haven't noticed anything from it really.

This whole heavy metals as cause of iron deficiency sounds like another can of worms I haven't even considered yet. I did a hair mineral analysis around four years ago, didn't show any elevated heavy metals, but maybe those tests are inaccurate.

 

[Cirion]

150 grams of red meat doesn't even sound like a lot really. I had a stint where I'd eat a pound of beef every day. Just seems like 150 grams prolly isn't nearly enough to overcome a legit deficiency. I ate a pound a day just because I enjoyed it, didn't even suspect a deficiency or anything.

 

[dbh25]

You took Floradix, right?

Yes.
My understanding is you can have issues that cause low iron, and these need to be fixed before your body can maintain the right level.
Or you can have low iron that causes issues. I was in this group. After supplementing, ferritin came up and eventually increased with diet.

 

[Douglas Ek]

I have included gelatin and glycine supplementation several longer periods during this time.
Haven't noticed anything from it really.

This whole heavy metals as cause of iron deficiency sounds like another can of worms I haven't even considered yet. I did a hair mineral analysis around four years ago, didn't show any elevated heavy metals, but maybe those tests are inaccurate.

150 grams of meat is nothning lol i ate like 400 grams per day for awhile. Anyway. Why dont you just buy and try for awhile. Ferritin always reflect iron from what I know. Show one study where it says ferritin is low but they have iron deposits in tissue. I’d be very interested in that case because that would be very important. I hihgly doubt that never read about it. Since you display those symptoms combined I’m pretty sure you are deficient. Look around the webb. When people are single digit ferritin they usually prescribe 300mg of iron per day just to get the ball moving. From what Ive understood it’s basically harder once you go that low to shift it. Food alone wont do it. Have you had prolactin and TSH tested? With the hair loss, brain fog and cold hands etc I’m bery positive you are deficient. Other symptoms? Do you sleep excessivly? How many hours per night? Have hard time getting out of bed? When you sit at your computer or any other table you move your legs all the time?Like like RLS?
I feel for you since I know how you feel and I know how you could feel. All your problems would go away and you would feel like you vave unlimited energy. That’s how I feel when I have normal iron. You would feel normal again.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Yes.
My understanding is you can have issues that cause low iron, and these need to be fixed before your body can maintain the right level.
Or you can have low iron that causes issues. I was in this group. After supplementing, ferritin came up and eventually increased with diet.

Yes this is true. With compromised metabolism like low thyroid due to severe iron deficiency you dont digest and absorb enough from food. Thyroid is important for a stong digestive system. If you have cold hands and feet and tired then you’re stomach is probably slow and crappy

 

[Douglas Ek]

This is generally what I’m trying to say here lots of people displaying iron deficiency symptoms like low thyroid, high prolactin and have low on lab test and people still propogate to donate blood here jesus christ what madness. How did you get so misslead. Its the most common nutrient deficiency in the world. Why does it have to mean all men have excess?

 

[Douglas Ek]

Iron accumulation in tissues of magnesium-deficient rats with dietary iron overload. - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.aulamedica.es/nh/pdf/7333.pdf

Magnesium seems very protective of the effects of iron excess. And high iron tends to deplete magnesium. I think magnesiums ability to reduce inflammation, boost antioxidant system and helps regulate autoimmune diseases like diabetes. This is interesting since overweight people with high blood pressure (magnesium deficiency likely) tend to have higher iron accumilation. Also an indication that the western diet which is too low in magnesium might be a cause for the iron problems and heart disease. Not the iron itself per say but deficiency of magnesium, vitamin E, vitamin C and other antioxidants.

 

[Arclight]

150 grams of meat is nothning lol i ate like 400 grams per day for awhile. Anyway. Why dont you just buy and try for awhile. Ferritin always reflect iron from what I know. Show one study where it says ferritin is low but they have iron deposits in tissue. I’d be very interested in that case because that would be very important. I hihgly doubt that never read about it. Since you display those symptoms combined I’m pretty sure you are deficient. Look around the webb. When people are single digit ferritin they usually prescribe 300mg of iron per day just to get the ball moving. From what Ive understood it’s basically harder once you go that low to shift it. Food alone wont do it. Have you had prolactin and TSH tested? With the hair loss, brain fog and cold hands etc I’m bery positive you are deficient. Other symptoms? Do you sleep excessivly? How many hours per night? Have hard time getting out of bed? When you sit at your computer or any other table you move your legs all the time?Like like RLS?
I feel for you since I know how you feel and I know how you could feel. All your problems would go away and you would feel like you vave unlimited energy. That’s how I feel when I have normal iron. You would feel normal again.

Other symptoms would be dizziness. I don't sleep excessively. I have a hard time falling asleep though. My prolactin levels was 5.17 μg/L pretty recently. TSH 1.1.

Maybe you are familiar with the "Magnesium advocacy group" on Facebook? The group has over 160 000 members, and lots of them came there because of iron deficiency issues. Typically they have all been prescribed iron supplements or injections with zero effects on their ferritin or other iron markers, and lingering symptoms.

The page was created by Morley Robbins, he has been writing several article on his webpage, and they all suggest that problems with iron metabolism is not caused by a lack of iron, but by an unbalance in minerals. They have a "protocol" which includes the supplementation of magnesium and beef liver for copper.
This article for example mentions studies which suggests that copper deficiency and other imbalances is interfering with proper iron loading into your ferritin.

Iron Toxicity Post #55: Ferritin is NOTHING, Hemosiderin is EVERYTHING!…

"The significance of what this team DISCOVERED is that when Ferritin does NOT have Ferroxidase (as in the Light-chain Ferritin) – the KEY cellular enzyme outside of Ferritin’s own enzyme – the Iron does NOT get loaded into the Ferritin PROPERLY, and that faulty Ferritin protein becomes essentially Hemosiderin."

His writing style is very messy and tiresome to read imo, but it looks like he has been doing a lot of researching and reading in this area.
And it's this kind of conflicting evidence that makes me really weary and indecisive of iron supplementation.

I have no doubt that I am somehow iron deficient, or at least that my iron metabolism cant utilize iron efficiently.
However, I have lots of doubts surrounding the suggestion that the solution for this would be larger doses of iron.
It feels a bit like saying to someone with low vitamin D who is already spending several hours in the sun every day to start sleeping under a tanning bed.

That all my problems would go away and I would feel like I have unlimited energy are kind of big words. I would like to refer to my earlier post, where I mentioned eating 100 grams of beef blood every day for a month without any real improvements. Thats 60 mg of heme iron a day. If my body needed iron it should have reacted favorably somehow, right?
These things makes me question if large doses of iron is the solution for people who's iron for some reason is kept low by their bodies.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Other symptoms would be dizziness. I don't sleep excessively. I have a hard time falling asleep though. My prolactin levels was 5.17 μg/L pretty recently. TSH 1.1.

Maybe you are familiar with the "Magnesium advocacy group" on Facebook? The group has over 160 000 members, and lots of them came there because of iron deficiency issues. Typically they have all been prescribed iron supplements or injections with zero effects on their ferritin or other iron markers, and lingering symptoms.

The page was created by Morley Robbins, he has been writing several article on his webpage, and they all suggest that problems with iron metabolism is not caused by a lack of iron, but by an unbalance in minerals. They have a "protocol" which includes the supplementation of magnesium and beef liver for copper.
This article for example mentions studies which suggests that copper deficiency and other imbalances is interfering with proper iron loading into your ferritin.

Iron Toxicity Post #55: Ferritin is NOTHING, Hemosiderin is EVERYTHING!…

"The significance of what this team DISCOVERED is that when Ferritin does NOT have Ferroxidase (as in the Light-chain Ferritin) – the KEY cellular enzyme outside of Ferritin’s own enzyme – the Iron does NOT get loaded into the Ferritin PROPERLY, and that faulty Ferritin protein becomes essentially Hemosiderin."

His writing style is very messy and tiresome to read imo, but it looks like he has been doing a lot of researching and reading in this area.
And it's this kind of conflicting evidence that makes me really weary and indecisive of iron supplementation.

I have no doubt that I am somehow iron deficient, or at least that my iron metabolism cant utilize iron efficiently.
However, I have lots of doubts surrounding the suggestion that the solution for this would be larger doses of iron.
It feels a bit like saying to someone with low vitamin D who is already spending several hours in the sun every day to start sleeping under a tanning bed.

That all my problems would go away and I would feel like I have unlimited energy are kind of big words. I would like to refer to my earlier post, where I mentioned eating 100 grams of beef blood every day for a month without any real improvements. Thats 60 mg of heme iron a day. If my body needed iron it should have reacted favorably somehow, right?
These things makes me question if large doses of iron is the solution for people who's iron for some reason is kept low by their bodies.

Yes I know morley. You can try his protocol I have. Just made me worse. But if it works for you thats great.