High basal temp and low thyroid symptoms

[Blessedmamato3]

Hi all,

Late last year, I came across Matt Stone and did his rrarf program and brought my temp from the 96s to 98. However, none of my thyroid issues resolved, other than my temp. I'm still eating well and taking in about 2800 cals a day, but my symptoms got worse. I bought ThyroGold, but haven't started it yet. I also got iodine, which I'm considering trying before starting TG. Also, the only test I''ve had done is TSH, which was 1.7.

Anyway, why would I have a stellar basal temp (97.9 per OV and 98.6 post via armpit), but horrible thyroid probs? That just seems like an oxymoron. Here's what I have going on...

Palpitations
Anemia (low MCH and MCV)
Hard weigh loss with constant stalling
Very sparse leg hair
Huge loss of head hair
Periods that used to be regular and normal are now clotty, heavy and erratic
Eyebrows thinning to almost nothing on outer third
Gum disease
Insomnia (though this seems to be helped by what I eat before bed)
Scaly, dry skin on heels that keeps growing and hands are always dry
Shriveled fingertips with vertical lines
Puffiness under eyes
Brittle, soft nails with ridges
Tendonitis in ankle with no cause
Joint aches
Night terrors that started right after my oldest was born (11 years ago)
Swollen, cracked tongue
Carpel tunnel
Low libido
Memory fog
Grouchy and easily overwhelmed
Fibrocystic breast

My diet is good. I restrict nothing (low carb gets the rate of hair loss increased 20 times). I drink raw milk, eat organic, grass fed meat and my nutrient levels are all high.

I'll add more as I remember. Any thoughts about all this are appreciated

 

[4peatssake]

Hi blessedmama and to the forum.

Here's some thoughts and a few questions off the top of my head. I'm sure others here will have more to say.

OK questions first.

1. Are you perimenopausal? It sounds like you have estrogren dominance so your age and where you are cyclically is a helpful to know.

2. What is your diet like? Can you give us a list of what you eat in a day? Are you eating a strict Peat diet and have eliminated PUFA from your diet?

3. Do you supplement gelatin?

For thyroid supplement, Ray Peat does not recommend iodine nor Thyroid Gold. He recommends using cynoplus and cynomel.

I use Cynoplus and Cynomel ... which are generally more economical and more consistent than some of the glandular products.

Best Place to Order Cynoplus and Cynomel

Here's a forum thread discussing Thyroid Gold. It is the excipients that are of the most concern - specifically forskolin, really bad stuff.

Ray Peat suggested the Achilles Heel Reflex Test to me to test thyroid function. To learn how to do it, I watched a video on YouTube and used the end of a knife as my "hammer." (Using the knife was a tip by RP).

Getting your diet down pat is the most important first step.
Progest E (progesterone supplement created by Ray Peat) may be helpful to you as well.

I suggest reading Ray Peat's articles on progesterone (there are several and I've linked two of them below.) Reading all of his articles and listening to his audios will help you the most. That, and contacting RP himself.

Aging, Estrogen and Progesterone

Progesterone Summaries

This article may be helpful as well: Bleeding, Clotting, Cancer

Things to reduce the stress-related coagulopathies: Sugar and niacin to minimize the liberation of fatty acids, progesterone and thyroid to protect against estrogen and to avoid hypoglycemia (which increases adrenaline and free fatty acids and accelerates clotting), magnesium and gelatin (or glycine), to protect against intracellular calcium overload and hypoxia, and vitamin E and salicylic acid for antiinflammatory effects, are major nutrients that protect the circulatory system against clotting, bleeding, edema, and tumefaction.

You may also wish to contact him directly with your issues. To do that, simply google "contact Ray Peat."

 

[Mittir]

RP explained in an audio interview how starchy food increases insulin and then cortisol.
And cortisol increases body temperature. But this is not a true body temperature.
M Stone does not really offer total RP style eating.
In RP eating you have to avoid starch and excess calorie intake.
He does not recommend iodine and he specifically recommend
cynomel, cynoplus and thyrolar. Most non-pharmaceutical thyroid products
have very poor quality.

 

[4peatssake]

RP explained in an audio interview how starchy food increases insulin and then cortisol.
And cortisol increases body temperature. But this is not a true body temperature.
M Stone does not really offer total RP style eating.
In RP eating you have to avoid starch and excess calorie intake.
He does not recommend iodine and he specifically recommend
cynomel, cynoplus and thyrolar. Most non-pharmaceutical thyroid products
have very poor quality.

Mittir, what's thyrolar? I'm not familiar with it nor RP recommending it.
Can you please point me in the right direction on that.
Thank you!

Good post!

 

[Blessedmamato3]

Thanks for your replies!

Forpetessake,

I just turned 40. I haven't had any menopausal symptoms going on that I'm aware of though.

Sure, I didn't know there was a Ray Peat diet LOL. I just heard about him from Matt. Matt preaches heavily against PUFAS, so I've been off them awhile. I haven't messed with vegetable oils and the like for 10 years, except once in a blue moon. I now avoid peanut butter and nuts in general. I've done low carb which produced a health crisis. I'm noticing improvement since following Matt's advice to drastically up carbs to the 400 range.

Also, these symptoms aren't new. I started having hair loss 9 years ago, as well as hard weigh loss and palpitations. A good majority of symptoms have been going on for 5 years. The period stuff for 2 years (my youngest is 2.5). The awful (benign) palps have been going for 3 years, with bouts that are so awful that sleep is impossible.

I've been kicking around high cortisol and adrenal issues as well.

I did the achilies reflex and it appears normal, I assume. If it flexes, it's normal, right? I couldn't find examples of normal or abnormal, so I'm guessing.

Typical day...

B - smoothie with 2c raw milk, 10oz frozen fruit, raw dairy based, non-soy, whey, and 1T rapadura
L - usually more of a snack...a couple bowls of popcorn cooked in coconut oil, raisins and a cup of milk or a yogurt/fruit/whey smoothie
D - grass fed beef, potatoes and green beans
S - throughout day...grapes, apple, cheese, etc

The only starches I have are potatoes on a daily basis. I have wheat occasionally. I make true sourdough bread with fresh ground wheat. I'll likely not give up starch, as I've seen benefits from it. I've also seen improvement from a lot of fruit intake.

I'm considering doing a 30 day raw milk diet to see if it help my teeth/gum issues. Plus, I know there's iodine in raw milk too.

I have not supplemented gelatin yet, but I just got two bottles of Great Lakes, which I'll be starting soon. How much do you recommend taking?

Any idea why Ray doesn't recommend iodine? I'm doing a patch test and the color has faded 75% and it hasn't even been 2 hours. I believe that true iodine deficiency exists and it has been proven to cure fibrocystic breasts, which got me looking into it. We only use Celtic salt, so no iodized salt.

Also, I have liver congestion. I have gallstones that don't typically cause trouble unless I'm pregnant, but regardless, I'm sure my digestion isn't optimal.

Are either if the thyroid meds Ray recommends bovine derived? I really want to avoid porcine if I end up needing to take it.

 

[Dutchie]

@mittir why do you have to avoid calories on this diet particularly?

@blessedmama Wow,almost 3000cals. Daily! And here I am being constantly sh*tty with food etc.....and your even losing weigth?!
Anyway,those are all my shitty issues,back to your question....
Various symptoms you describe are also listed as adrenal stress symptoms,so the high temp could be bc of high cortisol from stressed adrenals? Just a suggestion....

 

[Mittir]

Mittir, what's thyrolar? I'm not familiar with it nor RP recommending it.

It is a mix of T4 and T3 in 4:1 ratio. RP did mention in those audio interviews and also in
Danny Roddy's email advice collection.

On iodine.Study showed that excess, even normal intake of iodine, worsens
hashimoto type thyroditis. RP also reported people getting worse on excess
iodine doses.RP suggest weekly serving of seafood for selenium and iodine intake.
Those skin test for iodine deficiency is probably not scientific

@Dutchie I wrote about excess calorie, the calories beyond one's requirement.

 

[Blessedmamato3]

Hi :). I burn 3400 calories a day, so 2800 or so is a deficit. I've went as low as 1000 over the years and gained. Anything below what your body needs for fuel is horrible on your metabolism. I've found that if I raise my calories and my activity levels make the deficit, I lose slowly, but I lose.

Matt has much to say about this. Many folks thought they had low thyroid, but after doing rrarf, their temps went up and symptoms disappeared. Not in my case though.

So, do y'all think my thyroid is an issue or adrenals or both?

 

[Blessedmamato3]

Oh, and by the way, I'm writing from my phone, so I'm likely missing responses. I'll get on the computer in a bit.

 

[4peatssake]

Sure, I didn't know there was a Ray Peat diet LOL. I just heard about him from Matt.

There isn't really a Ray Peat diet per se, however, there are certain dietary recommendations he makes, but always in context.

Here is a good thread entitled: Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, and General Guidelines

Matt developed his "dietary program" from Ray Peat's scientific research. A lot of people find Ray Peat this way - or through Danny Roddy and others. But it's important to understand that Ray Peat is the actual scientist upon which they built their programs and recommendations. It's not direct from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Matt promotes starches but that is not pure Peat.

Starch stimulates the appetite, promotes fat synthesis by stimulating insulin secretion, and sometimes increases the growth of bacteria that produce toxins. It is often associated with allergens, and according to Gerhard Volkheimer, whole starch grains can be "persorbed" from the intestine directly into the blood stream where they may block arterioles, causing widely distributed nests of cell-death.

Simplified, this is what he recommends.

Milk, cheese, and fruits provide a very good balance of nutrients. Fruits provide a significant amount of protein. Plain sugar is o.k. when the other nutrients are adequate. Roots, shoots, and tubers are, next to the fruits, a good carbohydrate source; potatoes are a source of good protein. Meat as the main protein can provide too much phosphorus in relation to calcium.

I would personally never again consume whey and I'd begin adding a TB of the Great Lakes gelatin to your breakfast smoothie and nix the whey. I'd be concerned with impurities in the rapadura as well and opt for table sugar which Ray recommends for its purity.

For the gelatin, it's a fantastic source of protein and you include it in your daily protein amount.

A daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

You will want to consume gelatin when eating muscle meat to protect against the tryptophan. You can add it to coffee. I drink coffee with milk or cream, sugar and gelatin.

Gelatin, Stress, Longevity

You could always try an experiment, eliminating starches temporarily to see how that affects your symptoms.
I tolerate potatoes fine and eat them fried in coconut oil. But I eat them primarily for their quality nutrition as they are a balanced protein, like milk, cheese and eggs.

I should also add, though, that I am among the very few who tolerate potatoes. Most here opt to make Ray Peat Protein Potato Soup. There is an entire thread about that!

Balanced proteins, such as cheese, potatoes, eggs, and beef- or lamb-broth (for the gelatin and mineral content in particular) will prevent the tryptophan excess that suppresses the thyroid and is potentially a nerve toxin. Saturated fats, used regularly, reduce the immediate toxic antimetabolic effects of the stored unsaturated fats, but it takes a long time to change the balance of stored fats.

RP is an expert in women's health issues and if you send him your diet and list of symptoms, he may quickly see what you may be missing and/or causing you problems. IMO, he is the very best person to advise you.

Danny Roddy has done extensive work with hair loss and follows RP pretty closely, more so than Matt Stone.

Oh and I cannot say enough about the Ray Peat Search Engine that was created by forum member Dan Wich. It is a marvelous search tool to look up stuff about Ray Peat.

I've been kicking around high cortisol and adrenal issues as well.

Ray Peat considers high cortisol and adrenal issues to be symptoms of hypothyroidism. Correct the metabolic deficiency and these issues are automatically resolved.

"If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn't have much to do and you're not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don't have much to do, and your ovaries don't get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do."

Shifting from unsaturated fats in foods to coconut oil involves several anti-stress processes, reducing our need for the adrenal hormones.

In experiments, progesterone was found to be the basic hormone of adaptation and of resistance to stress. The adrenal glands use it to produce their antistress hormones, and when there is enough progesterone, they don't have to produce the potentially harmful cortisol. In a progesterone deficiency, we produce too much cortisol, and excessive cortisol causes osteoporosis, aging of the skin, damage to brain cells, and the accumulation of fat, especially on the back and abdomen.

I did the achilies reflex and it appears normal, I assume. If it flexes, it's normal, right? I couldn't find examples of normal or abnormal, so I'm guessing.

Best to have someone assist you. I couldn't do this on my own. I got my teenagers to help and on of them recorded it so I could take a look.

Having someone check your Achilles tendon reflex relaxation rate is helpful; the relaxation should be instantaneous, so that your foot falls floppily.

Are either if the thyroid meds Ray recommends bovine derived? I really want to avoid porcine if I end up needing to take it.

Cynomel and Cynoplus both synthetic supplements. He's not found glandular products to be consistent, although I am aware that some forum members hear have great results using a glandular product called thiroyd, which I believe is bovine derived. Someone can correct me on that if I'm mistaken.

 

[charlie]

Thiroyd is porcine.

 

[4peatssake]

Various symptoms you describe are also listed as adrenal stress symptoms,so the high temp could be bc of high cortisol from stressed adrenals? Just a suggestion....

Stressed adrenals are caused by metabolic deficiency! It's about energy!
The adrenal system is a back up system that shouldn't be used.
If your diet sucks, well, you aren't getting the proper ENERGY to fix your broken metabolism.
This is why eliminating PUFA and correcting the diet are the critical first steps.
If you don't do this, you'll be like a cat chasing its tail.

Poor functioning adrendals are a symptom of hypothyroidism and should be addressed in context.

"If your thyroid is working efficiently, your pituitary doesn't have much to do and you're not likely to get a pituitary tumor, your adrenals don't have much to do, and your ovaries don't get over stimulated. The other glands have an easy job when your thyroid is working right. If your thyroid gets interfered with, you have to rev up your adrenals and your pituitary becomes commander in chief and tells everyone what to do."

 

[charlie]

Adrenals just happen to be at the scene of the crime, they are not however the perpetrator.

Here is my way of understanding "adrenal fatigue" and what's going on:

Thyroid function lowers, normal energy production waivers, body needs more energy and starts up the emergency energy system and kicks in the adrenals. So now you have energy again, albeit, destructive energy that is wrecking your body. So the adrenals are supporting your energy needs now, while at the same time, thyroid function continues to go lower and lower, finally, the body has gotten to the point that it cannot even support your emergency system anymore, so, to save energy, it takes the adrenal system offline. That's when you feel like someone has pulled the plug on your life. That's the dreaded adrenal crash, the OMG I feel like I am dying because there is zero energy available. The adrenals are not "fatigued", the body just does not have the energy supply to support it anymore so it takes the adrenals offline. "Adrenal fatigue"( I cringe using those two words) is just another set of symptoms of everything hypothyroid.

 

[Dutchie]

Well,i wasnt referring to adrenal fatigue but to stressed adrenals.

 

[4peatssake]

Well,i wasnt referring to adrenal fatigue but to stressed adrenals.

Dutchie, this sentence makes no sense to me.

Do you understand what Charlie is saying and how the adrenal system kicks in an emergency but long term use of this back up system causes major problems?

This is pretty key to understanding Ray Peat.

The point being made is to fix overall energy production and get your thyroid running optimally and back in charge of things. Taxed adrenals are merely a clue.

You only get permanent results if you address the core issue.

 

[Blessedmamato3]

Thank you all for answering my questions so thoroughly! I will contact Ray this evening. I'm glad to be getting somewhere. The puzzle has been frustrating :). I'll also look up Danny Roddy.

Ok, so I consider potatoes starch. When you mention starch, are you just referencing grains? If so, which ones - or does that mean all?

Most of the way I prepare meat involves stock (Weston Price mindset), so on those occasions that don't, I'll be sure to supplement gelatin. I did not know tryptophan suppresses thyroid! Interesting!

Ray Peat considers high cortisol and adrenal issues to be symptoms of hypothyroidism. Correct the metabolic deficiency and these issues are automatically resolved.

Good to know! Thanks for pointing this out!

Blessedmamato3 wrote:
I did the achilies reflex and it appears normal, I assume. If it flexes, it's normal, right? I couldn't find examples of normal or abnormal, so I'm guessing.

Best to have someone assist you. I couldn't do this on my own. I got my teenagers to help and on of them recorded it so I could take a look.

So, what should we be looking for? Slow or no reflexes or hyper reflexes? I'm not sure what's normal?

Dutchie wrote:
Various symptoms you describe are also listed as adrenal stress symptoms,so the high temp could be bc of high cortisol from stressed adrenals? Just a suggestion....

Stressed adrenals are caused by metabolic deficiency! It's about energy!
The adrenal system is a back up system that shouldn't be used.
If your diet sucks, well, you aren't getting the proper ENERGY to fix your broken metabolism.
This is why eliminating PUFA and correcting the diet are the critical first steps.
If you don't do this, you'll be like a cat chasing its tail.

Poor functioning adrendals are a symptom of hypothyroidism and should be addressed in context.

Thanks for breaking that down; however, I have no PUFAS in my diet and my diet is good. So, I've worked on doing everything I can do diet-wise for the last year. No change.

Adrenals just happen to be at the scene of the crime, they are not however the perpetrator.

Here is my way of understanding "adrenal fatigue" and what's going on:

Thyroid function lowers, normal energy production waivers, body needs more energy and starts up the emergency energy system and kicks in the adrenals. So now you have energy again, albeit, destructive energy that is wrecking your body. So the adrenals are supporting your energy needs now, while at the same time, thyroid function continues to go lower and lower, finally, the body has gotten to the point that it cannot even support your emergency system anymore, so, to save energy, it takes the adrenal system offline. That's when you feel like someone has pulled the plug on your life. That's the dreaded adrenal crash, the OMG I feel like I am dying because there is zero energy available. The adrenals are not "fatigued", the body just does not have the energy supply to support it anymore so it takes the adrenals offline. "Adrenal fatigue"( I cringe using those two words) is just another set of symptoms of everything hypothyroid.

This is just awesome. Thank you! I really appreciate understanding that they go together.

I really appreciate all the help, guys!

 

[Blessedmamato3]

I just googled "contact Ray Peat" and it pulled up a site where I can, but then said he can't answer individual emails due to high volume. What am I missing?

 

[4peatssake]

so the high temp could be bc of high cortisol from stressed adrenals?

Dutchie's point here is valid, your temps could be indicative of high stress hormones due to hypothyroidism.
When/how are you monitoring them?

I had a quick glance at your other post and will respond after my daughter's soccer game!

Lots to learn for sure, but I'm sure you'll begin seeing good results!

 

[HDD]

Welcome, Blessedmamato3!

If you are just taking your temperature upon waking and it is high, this might be due to stress hormones that rise at night. You need to take it again a few hours after breakfast. If it drops after breakfast, that indicates your temperature was high due to the stress hormones.

This was the case for me initially.

"After eating breakfast, the cortisol (and adrenalin, if it stayed high despite the increased cortisol) will start returning to a more normal, lower level, as the blood sugar is sustained by food, instead of by the stress hormones. In some hypothyroid people, this is a good time to measure the temperature and pulse rate. In a normal person, both temperature and pulse rate rise after breakfast, but in very hypothyroid people either, or both, might fall."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hy ... dism.shtml

 

[Blessedmamato3]

Dutchie's point here is valid, your temps could be indicative of high stress hormones due to hypothyroidism.
When/how are you monitoring them?

I had a quick glance at your other post and will respond after my daughter's soccer game!

Lots to learn for sure, but I'm sure you'll begin seeing good results!

I've been monitoring my basal temp for a year now. I place it under my arm for 10 minutes before taking the temp. I do it immediately upon waking :).