Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Dr. B]

Interesting. Could be possible. I feel much better on vitamin E than without it, maybe by lowering retinol in the serum (which causes the most symptoms?), even if they pay-off is shuffling it to the liver?

On wikipedia‘s page on Hypervitaminosis A, vitamin E is listed as one of the few known therapeutic agents for it.

i read vitamin e or c are important for preventing oxidation of vitamin A since its unsaturated

Yupp- thats the proposed mechanism.

I would as normal not trust wiki but its interesting its even listed - I know Smith used to recomed it, before discovering this. At the moment he instead suggests lactoferrin as it normalizes bile excretion which is an important part. I still havent had any success with it, waiting for a better brand hopefully, but if trying start ridiculously low doses like 1/64th of a capsule if not the sudden change can be overwhelming.

I think its important at least to get some fiber to have it soak up the bile containing it. In the blood it does nothing good.

oh and one more thing. For me the positive effects of vitamin E that I experienced before starting the detox now after 3 years of low A does not give me a pleasent experience anymore. Maybe a bit like what Peat says about E mainly being useful as an antidote to PUFA (which Im not eating for 11 years)

doesnt copper soak up vitamin A so copper supplements could help to utilize excess vitamin A from supplements? not sure it would work with liver, since if you megadosed A supplements you would need supplemental taurine, or copper to help detox it faster

 

[Apple]

Anyone tried eating black beans like ggenreux? They are full of copper by the way ...
Black beans give me immediately skin problems, terrible acne on face, worse than from eggs...

 

[Eberhardt]

What do you think of Nixtamilized corn tortillas?

in theory it sounds good. Dont see a problem with it though I havent researched it specifically. I have never had access.

 

[Eberhardt]

i read vitamin e or c are important for preventing oxidation of vitamin A since its unsaturated



doesnt copper soak up vitamin A so copper supplements could help to utilize excess vitamin A from supplements? not sure it would work with liver, since if you megadosed A supplements you would need supplemental taurine, or copper to help detox it faster

Ill comment on both while Im at it. Maybe it does do that but especially for E that doesnt counter the problem of restoring. Getting rid of poisons beats damage reduction, especially when it exacperates it in the long run. On the c I am more conflicted. Some say they have success but others claims it makes it worse. I am sure the antioccidant part of c is good also in this context but supposedly it can mess with the liverenzymes needed or something. Interstingly there is signs that at least partially the idea that humans cant produce vitamin c is wrong. It seems like retinol is blocking it normally. I know at least that Grant has been now eating ONLY meat (and not fresh from the slaughtering), black beans and rice (sometimes also toast) and salt. Nothing else. And he has circulating vitamin C showing up on his bloodtest. That doesnt answer your question exactly but I tend to lean to Grants side thinking it is something the body takes care of when getting rid of A and that it is at least unreliable as a help.

On copper I am much more doubtfull. Dr.Smith views it as one of the worst thing to take as it can cause liver damage by itself. on the other hand I seem to have seen real problems occuring in sheep from not getting enough copper on pasture. BUT of course they where taking in a lot of vitamin a from herbs etc. But at least I would say to be very carefull with copper. C I think is more open for experimentation. E I just wouldnt recomend due to storage.

 

[Dr. B]

Ill comment on both while Im at it. Maybe it does do that but especially for E that doesnt counter the problem of restoring. Getting rid of poisons beats damage reduction, especially when it exacperates it in the long run. On the c I am more conflicted. Some say they have success but others claims it makes it worse. I am sure the antioccidant part of c is good also in this context but supposedly it can mess with the liverenzymes needed or something. Interstingly there is signs that at least partially the idea that humans cant produce vitamin c is wrong. It seems like retinol is blocking it normally. I know at least that Grant has been now eating ONLY meat (and not fresh from the slaughtering), black beans and rice (sometimes also toast) and salt. Nothing else. And he has circulating vitamin C showing up on his bloodtest. That doesnt answer your question exactly but I tend to lean to Grants side thinking it is something the body takes care of when getting rid of A and that it is at least unreliable as a help.

On copper I am much more doubtfull. Dr.Smith views it as one of the worst thing to take as it can cause liver damage by itself. on the other hand I seem to have seen real problems occuring in sheep from not getting enough copper on pasture. BUT of course they where taking in a lot of vitamin a from herbs etc. But at least I would say to be very carefull with copper. C I think is more open for experimentation. E I just wouldnt recomend due to storage.

but Peat said he was eating only meat or only meat/dairy remember he mentioned dehydro ascorbic acid. its an animal form of vitamin C.
the mainstream tests are only testing the plant form of it. its akin to testing liver for beta carotene content instead of retinol.
theres a bunch of vitamins which have animal vs plant forms...
like K1 in plants, grass vs K2 MK4 in animal foods, MK7 in fermented foods...
beta carotene and carotenoids vs retinol or other retinyl forms...
probably the calcium is different and probably everything, vitamin C too
Peat said he was only eating meat and dairy yet urinating several grams of vitamin C which implied he was getting large amounts of it from meat and dairy

although im not sure how it works, if you need additional antioxidant effects you may need to supplement since maybe the vitamin C in meat/dairy is there to counteract something in those products like the vitamin A or the copper or iron

what do you mean you wouldnt recommend E due to storage?

anyway I think Peat mentioned something, about A being more dangerous with vitamin E deficiency, it oxidized too quickly when ingested or something

 

[Eberhardt]

but Peat said he was eating only meat or only meat/dairy remember he mentioned dehydro ascorbic acid. its an animal form of vitamin C.
the mainstream tests are only testing the plant form of it. its akin to testing liver for beta carotene content instead of retinol.
theres a bunch of vitamins which have animal vs plant forms...
like K1 in plants, grass vs K2 MK4 in animal foods, MK7 in fermented foods...
beta carotene and carotenoids vs retinol or other retinyl forms...
probably the calcium is different and probably everything, vitamin C too
Peat said he was only eating meat and dairy yet urinating several grams of vitamin C which implied he was getting large amounts of it from meat and dairy

although im not sure how it works, if you need additional antioxidant effects you may need to supplement since maybe the vitamin C in meat/dairy is there to counteract something in those products like the vitamin A or the copper or iron

what do you mean you wouldnt recommend E due to storage?

anyway I think Peat mentioned something, about A being more dangerous with vitamin E deficiency, it oxidized too quickly when ingested or something

I heard about the meat dairy thing with peat. Even if many vitamins exist in both "animal" and "plant" form, all vitamin C i have ever heard observed have been of the same kind as in plants, but only in fresh meat. Storage is supposed to break it down as well as freezing. Thats why I mentioned Grant not eating it fresh perviously. Cooking it also destroys a lot of the c in meat. But couldnt it be that Peat was actually producing it in his body??
The storage part was refering to the mechanism I expoundef above to @youngsinatra . It supposedly also takes A out of the bloodnand restores it in the liver.
On the A being more dangerous without E that would seemingly be if you belive, as Peat does, that A is beneficial and that oxidation is the real problem. So on that part Grants theory would be in opposition to Peats view. I agree with Grant there.

 

[Dr. B]

I heard about the meat dairy thing with peat. Even if many vitamins exist in both "animal" and "plant" form, all vitamin C i have ever heard observed have been of the same kind as in plants, but only in fresh meat. Storage is supposed to break it down as well as freezing. Thats why I mentioned Grant not eating it fresh perviously. Cooking it also destroys a lot of the c in meat. But couldnt it be that Peat was actually producing it in his body??
The storage part was refering to the mechanism I expoundef above to @youngsinatra . It supposedly also takes A out of the bloodnand restores it in the liver.
On the A being more dangerous without E that would seemingly be if you belive, as Peat does, that A is beneficial and that oxidation is the real problem. So on that part Grants theory would be in opposition to Peats view. I agree with Grant there.

what do you think the vitamin A is doing in milk, is it a toxin present in higher amounts in modern milk?

 

[Vinero]

Anyone tried eating black beans like ggenreux? They are full of copper by the way ...
Black beans give me immediately skin problems, terrible acne on face, worse than from eggs...

Yes me too. Black beans give me massive face inflammation. Eczema and also acne on my back. I even developed cysts all over my body during a period of eating beans 3 times a day. It doesn't happen if the beans are eaten sporadically, like once a week or something. But if I eat a portion of black beans or other bean everyday, my face slowly becomes very inflamed. I think it's the soluble fiber or the oxalates in beans. I don't think it's the copper content of beans. Beans aren't that high in copper. I have eaten shellfish like squid everyday for a week which are extremely high in bioavailable copper and I don't get skin problems. Copper from seafood actually lifts my mood and energy. The problem with copper from plant foods in that copper from plants usually comes with large amounts of soluble fiber and oxalates. For example potatoes, nuts, whole grains, and cocoa. All these foods flare up my skin, besides ruining my mood by causing depression and fatigue.

 

[Korven]

Yes me too. Black beans give me massive face inflammation. Eczema and also acne on my back. I even developed cysts all over my body during a period of eating beans 3 times a day. It doesn't happen if the beans are eaten sporadically, like once a week or something. But if I eat a portion of black beans or other bean everyday, my face slowly becomes very inflamed. I think it's the soluble fiber or the oxalates in beans. I don't think it's the copper content of beans. Beans aren't that high in copper. I have eaten shellfish like squid everyday for a week which are extremely high in bioavailable copper and I don't get skin problems. Copper from seafood actually lifts my mood and energy. The problem with copper from plant foods in that copper from plants usually comes with large amounts of soluble fiber and oxalates. For example potatoes, nuts, whole grains, and cocoa. All these foods flare up my skin, besides ruining my mood by causing depression and fatigue.

Same experience.

A low vitamin A diet with lots of beans was a disaster for me, I got really bad staph infections on my face and back. And my fatigue and hypothyroidism got way, way worse. It was a nightmare... ugh.

I think beans can be hazardous for someone with a sensitive gut and/or some sort of microbiome issue. For me eating beans 3x daily is a surefire way of flaring up gut dysbiosis symptoms. Potatoes are equally bad for me.

A lot of benefits from the meat/rice low VA diet is likely due to elimination of allergenic or irritating foods. I really doubt vitamin A in normal quantities is a driver of autoimmunity.

 

[Eberhardt]

what do you think the vitamin A is doing in milk, is it a toxin present in higher amounts in modern milk?

It would be naturally present as ruminants eat it, but modern milk might be higher due to fodder composition. But pesticide use and drug use which limits our ability to detox have risen enormously making it harder to handle. Also the amount of milk available has generally increased as well as concentrates such as whey. So generally capasity has been going down and consumption up.

 

[Blossom]

A lot of benefits from the meat/rice low VA diet is likely due to elimination of allergenic or irritating foods. I really doubt vitamin A in normal quantities is a driver of autoimmunity.

I agree based on my experience since 2018.

 

[Dr. B]

It would be naturally present as ruminants eat it, but modern milk might be higher due to fodder composition. But pesticide use and drug use which limits our ability to detox have risen enormously making it harder to handle. Also the amount of milk available has generally increased as well as concentrates such as whey. So generally capasity has been going down and consumption up.

what do you mean by "Also the amount of milk available has generally increased as well as concentrates such as whey. So generally capasity has been going down and consumption up."
capacity like our ability to digest it properly?

 

[Eberhardt]

what do you mean by "Also the amount of milk available has generally increased as well as concentrates such as whey. So generally capasity has been going down and consumption up."
capacity like our ability to digest it properly?

well, before modern times. I'd say generally before 2 world war, a cow milked about 25% of the amount they due to day due to "better" nutrition and selective breeding (and sometimes hormonetreatment). Also not everybody had it available and the ones that did would have to have 4 cows to give what one does to day. There was not much industrialized dairy-farming and the number of milking cows were lower. It was also dependent on the cow having had a calf recently as cows would normally not be lactating all year round. And storage was less hygenic and it spoiled faster. Making proteinpowder wasnt a thing at all. So the amount of milk and dairy a person would actually consume would be lower and there would not be things like whey. And whey has much more netto A as it is attached to the casein molecules primarly. So just you would get less dairy and less A.

You could call it digest it, I'd rather say execrete it. Wether you belive A to be a necessity or not there is noone disagreeing about how it is handled in the body- it is transformed in the liver primarly to its storage forms like retinaldehyde. If the bile and liver is functioning properly and enzymes are produced in healthy amounts the body will handle a certain amount of vitamin A. The rest is expelled wether that means all or some of it. There isnt any such thing as zero A outside of labs and usually we are able to handle some if all system are running ok. But we also consume more then before. To nutritionists astonishment the few tests that has been run on hunter-gatherer societies show that they from all sorts gets averagely less then 2000IU a day, yet show no "deficiency" signs. Also due to the availability of everything from bright coloured vegetables and food all year, abundant eggs, dairy and organ meat for those who eat that, the average intake has skyrocketed last 50 years or so. I myself without taking supplemental A did 35 times the officially upper recomended tolerable level for adults for years. If you add drugs and pesticides to this you get an absurd load of A on the body.

 

[Dr. B]

well, before modern times. I'd say generally before 2 world war, a cow milked about 25% of the amount they due to day due to "better" nutrition and selective breeding (and sometimes hormonetreatment). Also not everybody had it available and the ones that did would have to have 4 cows to give what one does to day. There was not much industrialized dairy-farming and the number of milking cows were lower. It was also dependent on the cow having had a calf recently as cows would normally not be lactating all year round. And storage was less hygenic and it spoiled faster. Making proteinpowder wasnt a thing at all. So the amount of milk and dairy a person would actually consume would be lower and there would not be things like whey. And whey has much more netto A as it is attached to the casein molecules primarly. So just you would get less dairy and less A.

You could call it digest it, I'd rather say execrete it. Wether you belive A to be a necessity or not there is noone disagreeing about how it is handled in the body- it is transformed in the liver primarly to its storage forms like retinaldehyde. If the bile and liver is functioning properly and enzymes are produced in healthy amounts the body will handle a certain amount of vitamin A. The rest is expelled wether that means all or some of it. There isnt any such thing as zero A outside of labs and usually we are able to handle some if all system are running ok. But we also consume more then before. To nutritionists astonishment the few tests that has been run on hunter-gatherer societies show that they from all sorts gets averagely less then 2000IU a day, yet show no "deficiency" signs. Also due to the availability of everything from bright coloured vegetables and food all year, abundant eggs, dairy and organ meat for those who eat that, the average intake has skyrocketed last 50 years or so. I myself without taking supplemental A did 35 times the officially upper recomended tolerable level for adults for years. If you add drugs and pesticides to this you get an absurd load of A on the body.

guernsey and jersey cows are commonly said to produce significantly less milk than holsteins but the milk is thicker, fattier and has a golden sort of color instead of white. i heard its the holstein that was bred to produce lots of milk volume that isnt as nutritious or as high fat as the other breeds. so would jersey/guernsey milk be fine

what do you mean "whey has much more netto A as it is attached to the casein" ?

how were you getting 35 times the upper limit of 10000IU without using supplements? that seems impossible!

 

[Eberhardt]

what do you think the vitamin A is doing in milk, is it a toxin present in higher amounts in modern milk?

Yup. It naturally binds to the casein amd increased exposure in fodder and more drugs stopping the cowd from excreting it makes an increased amount. But mostly Ibreckon the problem ia ua taking in more and out less.

 

[Amazoniac]

For an idea of what constitutes a high intake for a ruminant:

- Fat spectro-colorimetric characteristics of lambs switched from a low to a high dietary carotenoid level for various durations before slaughter

Spoiler

- Carotenoids | LPI

@mrchibbs

 

[Daniil]

To be honest I don't quite understand how it can be avoiding allergens when I ate on a diet, including: gluten, honey, chocolate, sugar, lemons, apples. And got rid of brain fog, dandruff and hair loss. And all this in quite large quantities.

Personally I see a slow and gradual improvement in my health indicators, which should correspond to detoxification of vitamin A (although the day before yesterday I had the strongest peeling of the skin for all the time of observations, which is a symptom of hyperaitaminosis)

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes me too. Black beans give me massive face inflammation. Eczema and also acne on my back. I even developed cysts all over my body during a period of eating beans 3 times a day. It doesn't happen if the beans are eaten sporadically, like once a week or something. But if I eat a portion of black beans or other bean everyday, my face slowly becomes very inflamed. I think it's the soluble fiber or the oxalates in beans. I don't think it's the copper content of beans. Beans aren't that high in copper. I have eaten shellfish like squid everyday for a week which are extremely high in bioavailable copper and I don't get skin problems. Copper from seafood actually lifts my mood and energy. The problem with copper from plant foods in that copper from plants usually comes with large amounts of soluble fiber and oxalates. For example potatoes, nuts, whole grains, and cocoa. All these foods flare up my skin, besides ruining my mood by causing depression and fatigue.

Do you enjoy eating squid? I'm thinking of eating more of it

 

[aniciete]

To be honest I don't quite understand how it can be avoiding allergens when I ate on a diet, including: gluten, honey, chocolate, sugar, lemons, apples. And got rid of brain fog, dandruff and hair loss. And all this in quite large quantities.

Personally I see a slow and gradual improvement in my health indicators, which should correspond to detoxification of vitamin A (although the day before yesterday I had the strongest peeling of the skin for all the time of observations, which is a symptom of hyperaitaminosis)

Why do you think some people don’t get vitamin a overload while some do?

 

[Daniil]

Why do you think some people don’t get vitamin a overload while some do?

A matter of time.