Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[DanDare]

There does seem to be a pattern for many people (myself included) where symptoms of both vA toxicity and deficiency are present, such as say, keratosis pilaris. I know Dr. Smith's take on this is it's simply vA toxicity but the hypothesis more in line with mainstream science is that it's a symptom of deficiency, specifically of retinoic acid, which is the active form of vA. Now, going off of that idea, the dominant hypothesis outside of Dr. Smith's network is that this is a result of impaired ADH and ALDH enzymes. When they are impaired, alcohols and aldehydes are not broken down, so you don't get retinoic acid (in the small and very controlled manner) that the body needs, but the alcohols and aldehydes accumulate, since they don't magically disappear. This buildup then causes chronic vA toxicity since it doesn't matter if you took a large dose at once or over time, if you didn't break it down and excrete it, you will have too much in the body.

So, from this we can draw a few points and ask some questions:
1. This hypothesis could explain how chronic vA toxicity can happen even if vA isn't necessarily a poison, bar none, and why some people experience relief on lower vA diets and lower intake of other alcohols, such as ethanol.
2. This would suggest that a low vA diet is a bandaid that is effective but doesn't necessarily solve the underlying issue.
3. How would one go about improving ADH/ALDH function so that they could eat the variety of food they need for all their nutrients and for some measure of enjoyment without suffering the accumulation of vA and a deficiency in RA when consumed in reasonable amounts? (Sorry low vA die hards, but rice, beans, beef, and salt are not the only foods healthy people should ever eat, and enjoying your food is not a sin)

It's not some religions faith in the idea driving this, or cult following a single guy. There isn't a die hard I am aware of who is going to argue that you shouldn't be enjoying your food or limiting it to beef, beans and rice. Saying this just gives the impression you bear a grudge/ hold resentment.

The studies which support the idea that retinol is essential, and hence a vitamin, are very poor, their conclusions poor. And counting the ideas further, we now have Grant and others now having so little serum retinol that it cannot feasibly be essential for health. Grant's experimental gerbils were also healthy before they were accidentally cooked.

 

[Aleksandr]

For two weeks I have been supplementing over 50mg of niacin ( I add a bit to each meal) and thiamine each day. I haven't experienced any drying of skin or dandruff at all.

Noticed any benefits from it?

 

[orangebear]

It's not some religions faith in the idea driving this, or cult following a single guy. There isn't a die hard I am aware of who is going to argue that you shouldn't be enjoying your food or limiting it to beef, beans and rice. Saying this just gives the impression you bear a grudge/ hold resentment.

The studies which support the idea that retinol is essential, and hence a vitamin, are very poor, their conclusions poor. And counting the ideas further, we now have Garrett and others now having so little serum retinol that it cannot feasibly be essential for health. Garrett's experimental gerbils were also healthy before they were accidentally cooked.

OK, I exaggerated things a bit; no one, including Dr. Smith, says you can't eat foods other than beef, rice, and beans, but when Dr. Smith decides he doesn't like a food he will deride those who disagree with him, like how he calls people who eat eggs egg-cels, and there are a lot of his followers who do indeed parrot him like as though he was their cult leader.

The hypothesis I expressed doesn't say that vA is necessary in large amounts, but that the body utilizes small amounts. The issue is when the conversion process and excretion are impaired, leading to a toxic buildup even when eating relatively low amounts of vA. While a lot of the research advocating for anything more than low to moderate consumption of vA is poor, there is some research on the specific mechanisms of action of vA that suggests small amounts are part of normal physiological processes. I'm not read up on all of them enough and my understanding of biochemistry is not good enough to make a solid judgment yet, but if we wanted to test whether we could indeed survive and thrive on actually zero vA, we would need to modify the beef and bison that Grant eats to actually have zero vA. I'm not saying we should all go pop cod liver oil, but that the tiny amounts of vA in beef might have a legitimate biological function in our bodies and we don't need much more than that.

Also, you mixed up Grant and Garrett. Grant Generoux is the engineer who wrote the books, eats nothing but beef/bison, beans, and rice to prove a point, and did experiments with the gerbils, while Garrett Smith is the doctor who has some very strong opinions on everything and some strong ones about you if you disagree with him. The thing with Grant's experiment is that his body temperature and some other things seem to indicate hypothyroidism (though in other ways he's probably healthier than me) so I doubt he's doing everything absolutely right. I want to find the answers for as optimal of health as possible for myself rather than merely proving a point. He wants to do that and that's fine, but my goals are a little different.

 

[Blossom]

want to find the answers for as optimal of health as possible for myself rather than merely proving a point. He wants to do that and that's fine, but my goals are a little different.

Yes, indeed. At the end of the day we can’t outsource our health or get caught up in ideologies and theories but do what works best for our own body.

 

[DanDare]

Also, you mixed up Grant and Garrett

Yes indeed I did sorry about that, fixed it.

OK, I exaggerated things a bit; no one, including Dr. Smith, says you can't eat foods other than beef, rice, and beans, but when Dr. Smith decides he doesn't like a food he will deride those who disagree with him, like how he calls people who eat eggs egg-cels, and there are a lot of his followers who do indeed parrot him like as though he was their cult leader.

Smith is like that but the idea and evidence is a lot bigger than one man..

Stretching back decades we have Childer's who lived to approx 100ys IIRC, who avoided nightshade primarily but also vitamin A. Obviously we have Genereux ( this thread), but also Anthony Mawson and R Croft. And now many many experimental results from people who've been following the low A in several guises.

The hypothesis I expressed doesn't say that vA is necessary in large amounts, but that the body utilizes small amounts.

Your hypothesis didn't mention what retinol or it's derivatives was used for in any amount.

The issue is when the conversion process and excretion are impaired, leading to a toxic buildup even when eating relatively low amounts of vA. While a lot of the research advocating for anything more than low to moderate consumption of vA is poor, there is some research on the specific mechanisms of action of vA that suggests small amounts are part of normal physiological processes.

The logic here could be said to be true about all kinds of toxins. For example phthalates interfere with sexual development. If poor sexual development was the norm, we might think a lack of phthalates is a deficiency, and so babies deficient end up with big scary penises.

I'm not read up on all of them enough and my understanding of biochemistry is not good enough to make a solid judgment yet, but if we wanted to test whether we could indeed survive and thrive on actually zero vA, we would need to modify the beef and bison that Grant eats to actually have zero vA.

Strictly speaking, yes, but his serum levels are exceptional low. One would expect some kind of deterioration in eyes, skin, general health, but the opposite is true, non-stop slow improvement for 9 years. At what amount would one suddenly become deficient or even show signs of deteriorating if it is essential?

 

[orangebear]

Smith is like that but the idea and evidence is a lot bigger than one man..

Yeah, it's just sometimes I find that funny and other times a bit annoying.

Stretching back decades we have Childer's who lived to approx 100ys IIRC, who avoided nightshade primarily but also vitamin A. Obviously we have Genereux ( this thread), but also Anthony Mawson and R Croft. And now many many experimental results from people who've been following the low A in several guises.

I'm aware of that. I've been experimenting with low-ish vA for 2 years. I seem to have settled on consuming between 50–100% of the RDA for vA. More or less than that gives me different issues. Most of my vA comes from eggs, which also have a lot of useful nutrients, a bit of butter (a tbsp of which actually has more vA than an egg), asparagus, and sometimes a latte if I get coffee at a cafe (the oat milk they use is made with seed oils so whole milk is the lesser evil).

Your hypothesis didn't mention what retinol or it's derivatives was used for in any amount.

I can't remember the details from the studies that tangentially convinced me that vA has some legit uses in the body at the moment and I don't want to attempt to reconstruct it from my memory and totally butcher it—if I sit down and find them again I'll get back to you—but my original response was to @TheCalciumCad's post linking to Chris Masterjohn's twitter thread on vA being a nutrient. The point of my response was to say that I can believe (not to the point that I am willing to die on this hill yet) that vA is a nutrient, but what if you have impaired alcohol metabolism and are prone to accumulating vA to levels that would be considered toxic even by mainstream medicine. This is something that needs to be addressed regardless of whether vA is a poison, bar none or not.

The logic here could be said to be true about all kinds of toxins. For example phthalates interfere with sexual development. If poor sexual development was the norm, we might think a lack of phthalates is a deficiency, and so babies deficient end up with big scary penises.

That doesn't follow.

Strictly speaking, yes, but his serum levels are exceptional low. One would expect some kind of deterioration in eyes, skin, general health, but the opposite is true, non-stop slow improvement for 9 years. At what amount would one suddenly become deficient or even show signs of deteriorating if it is essential?

Again, his health isn't perfect. I would like to know what he's doing to give himself a low core temp and heart rate at rest. He seems to have a slow metabolism and consequently has either not been able to detox everything he should after all this time or he is deficient in something.

 

[mosaic01]

Stretching back decades we have Childer's who lived to approx 100ys IIRC, who avoided nightshade primarily but also vitamin A. Obviously we have Genereux ( this thread), but also Anthony Mawson and R Croft. And now many many experimental results from people who've been following the low A in several guises.

Childers avoided vitamin A?

 

[DanDare]

I can't remember the details from the studies that tangentially convinced me that vA has some legit uses in the body at the moment and I don't want to attempt to reconstruct it from my memory and totally butcher it—if I sit down and find them again I'll get back to you—but my original response was to

I bet I have seen them already and found them lacking.

@TheCalciumCad's post linking to Chris Masterjohn's twitter thread on vA being a nutrient. The point of my response was to say that I can believe (not to the point that I am willing to die on this hill yet) that vA is a nutrient, but what if you have impaired alcohol metabolism and are prone to accumulating vA to levels that would be considered toxic even by mainstream medicine. This is something that needs to be addressed regardless of whether vA is a poison, bar none or not.

Right, and that missing link is probably insufficient soluble fibre or dairy excess, or both.

That doesn't follow.

It does follow but let me give a different and more topical example.
Rats are accelerated into puberty by vitamin a. This is used as an argument for vitamin a deficiency hindering sexual development in rats. But seen from the lens of precocious puberty being a bad thing, then it is not a deficiency but an excess.
The studies are terminated and the vitamin A rats look bigger and have more testosterone, but long term outcomes are not considered- we don't know how large the low vit a rats would have got because they were not fully grown, we don't know how long they live? Whether the are as smart etc?

Again, his health isn't perfect. I would like to know what he's doing to give himself a low core temp and heart rate at rest. He seems to have a slow metabolism and consequently has either not been able to detox everything he should after all this time or he is deficient in something.

What are you basing this on? As far as I have read his thyroid results was good, as was his testosterone, cholesterol etc.

What is the point in having a fast metabolism at rest? It hardly sounds efficient. Are we to take Ray Peats ideas as axiom? He took thyroid half his life, supposedly had high metabolism, and despite that ( or because of it) died at an average age.

 

[orangebear]

What are you basing this on? As far as I have read his thyroid results was good, as was his testosterone, cholesterol etc.

What is the point in having a fast metabolism at rest? It hardly sounds efficient. Are we to take Ray Peats ideas as axiom? He took thyroid half his life, supposedly had high metabolism, and despite that ( or because of it) died at an average age.

I read somewhere when asked he said his core temp was around 97.5º when converted to F. I don't remember what his heart rate was. Even outside of Ray Peat's work, it is hypothesized that having a resting core temp of 98.6º is optimal for a variety of reasons, including optimal immune system function. I'm not saying we need to burn 5000 calories at rest, but I know I personally feel bad when my core temp drops below 98.4º except when sleeping.

 

[Blossom]

Chris Masterjohn's twitter thread on vA being a nutrient. The point of my response was to say that I can believe (not to the point that I am willing to die on this hill yet) that vA is a nutrient, but what if you have impaired alcohol metabolism and are prone to accumulating vA to levels that would be considered toxic even by mainstream medicine. This is something that needs to be addressed regardless of whether vA is a poison, bar none or not.

Yes, Meri Arthur is exploring this currently and I’m very grateful for her efforts. She generously spoke with me via video conference for close to 2 hours last week and she feels the reasons for vA toxicity go beyond simple overconsumption basically points towards a broken metabolism at some level which can vary depending on the person. It’s a shame the low vA community has become so divided that it’s broken into bickering tribes. It all started with the humble egg. We truly won’t get to the truth that way. It’s just another example of human egos and pride mucking things up.

 

[DanDare]

I read somewhere when asked he said his core temp was around 97.5º when converted to F. I don't remember what his heart rate was. Even outside of Ray Peat's work, it is hypothesized that having a resting core temp of 98.6º is optimal for a variety of reasons, including optimal immune system function. I'm not saying we need to burn 5000 calories at rest, but I know I personally feel bad when my core temp drops below 98.4º except when sleeping.

It's a tough one because we don't know Grant's temperatures before all or this, don't know how it when he measured it or with what He might have always run cold, though that temp would be in the normal range for a Canadian in his mid 60's. He could well be hypothyroid, but less hypothyroid than he used to be. We don't know...

 

[Dutchie]

Yes, Meri Arthur is exploring this currently and I’m very grateful for her efforts. She generously spoke with me via video conference for close to 2 hours last week and she feels the reasons for vA toxicity go beyond simple overconsumption basically points towards a broken metabolism at some level which can vary depending on the person. It’s a shame the low vA community has become so divided that it’s broken into bickering tribes. It all started with the humble egg. We truly won’t get to the truth that way. It’s just another example of human egos and pride mucking things up.

Did she perhaps mention anything about the (broken) alcohol metabolism?...it's cause(s) and how to reverse it?
I've never and still don't believe in the vit.A=toxin theory, but I can't deny that it's causing me issues despite never having had high vitamin A intake.

My suspicion is that it possibly stems from my gut. (Bacteria and/or h.pylori?creating an abundance of ethanol,despite the fact that there are no carbs to ferment).
Unfortunately there's no detailed microbiome test here like the one from Genova,aside from the fact that I couldn't afford it anyway,so I'm kind of threading in the dark about how to heal this.

 

[Blossom]

@Dutchie, yes. It’s one pathway that can be impaired although I don’t know the particular fixes and we didn’t discuss it in depth. She has various videos on her YouTube channel and I’ll be happy to ask her though if there’s a particular one that would be best to watch if someone suspects this impairment.

https://youtube.com/@weakthereforestrong5852?si=2aR9ZU9C5kK3Of4V

 

[Hidden49]

Does Garret still use and recommend sodium chlorite? Haven't heard him mention it recently but I did try some the other day (very low dose) as I was curious about it, the energy boost it gave me was quite something and it did increase bowel frequency, but it made me awkward/anxious when socialissing with people. The sodium chlorite did feel pretty intense as you are just throwing a load of oxygen/oxidation into your system, and if you don't have enough antioxidant production to balance it then that can cause harm. I tried it two times but don't think I will try again as I have doubts about it.