Low Toxin Diet Vitamin A depletion Rate

[Aleksandr]

Just for fun, I asked chatGPT to provide an estimate of how long a zero vitamin A diet would take to completely deplete a full liver of Vitamin A.
It gave the higher estimate of a full liver of A for an 80kg adult male as ~500,000 UI:

The time it would take to deplete a liver store of 500,000 IU of vitamin A on a near-zero vitamin A diet depends on the body's daily usage of vitamin A. The average daily requirement for an adult male is about 900 micrograms (mcg) of retinol activity equivalents (RAE), which is approximately 3,000 IU.

Calculations​

1. Daily Requirement: 3,000 IU/day.
2. Total Liver Store: 500,000 IU.

To find out how many days it would take to deplete the liver stores:
Number of days=Total Liver StoreDaily Requirement=500,000 IU3,000 IU/day≈167 daysNumber of days=Daily RequirementTotal Liver Store=3,000IU/day500,000IU≈167days
So, if the liver is storing 500,000 IU of vitamin A, it would take approximately 167 days to deplete these stores if no additional vitamin A is consumed and the daily requirement is 3,000 IU.

Factors Influencing Depletion Rate​

1. Individual Variation: Metabolism and vitamin A requirements can vary based on individual health, age, activity level, and other factors.
2. Health Status: Conditions affecting vitamin A metabolism or increased need (e.g., infections, certain diseases) could alter the depletion rate.
3. Baseline Stores: The initial liver stores and efficiency of vitamin A utilization may differ from person to person.

Practical Considerations​

While a theoretical calculation gives an estimate, in practice, monitoring vitamin A levels and health status is important. If vitamin A toxicity is a concern, medical supervision is essential to safely manage and monitor depletion without causing deficiency-related problems.

A few thoughts:
- From what I've anecdotally read, it seems to take people longer. I've seen people say within 2 years the majority of peoples health has returned, something like 70~80% recovery, and then slight increases from then on. Which is a far cry from 167, which is closer to just over 5 months.
- Perhaps there is some need for the body to maintain a lower vitamin A status for the healing to take place however; so when it starts lowering, immediate issues resolve, then when its below a certain threshold (or zero) deeper issues take place, perhaps something like "dna repair"? different parts of the body also seem to heal at different rates.
- This assumed 0 vitamin A being consumed, which is not possible. However, i asked it to recalculate on a low vitamin A diet (assuming 160 IU per day - which seems likely for a lot of us) and it would only take 176 days.
- This assumes healthy vitamin A metabolism - perhaps we simply don't have this. Toxic bile theory, clogged liver ducts, whatever it is.
- Perhaps there are people who make full recoveries within 5 months. Anyone heard of any?

 

[mosaic01]

The calculation is wrong because unfortunately the daily requirement is not the same as the daily depletion rate. The actual daily "requirement" has been found to be around 200-300mcg, but then due to an "uncertainty factor" the RDA was set higher, to account for possible variations. The depletion studies suggest that that actual utilization (in contrast to detoxification), if there is any, is between 50 and 200 mcg per day.

There have been depletion studies done and they showed a rough daily depletion rate of 0.5-1% of total liver stores, so during the first months you have the highest amounts excreted.

Low Toxin Diet - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Food ain't innocent either. Uh-huh- that doesn't explain the paradox posed by the video

raypeatforum.com

Depletion Rate

User "franko" over at the Ray Peat forum has done a good job of writing about VA toxicity. He mentions a depletion rate of 0.5%. A depletion rate …

ggenereux.blog

It usually took 1-2 years for complete depletion, but it varies a lot.

The depletion studies were done decades ago, and were done with people who likely did not have a history of overconsumption (liver, milk, eggs, carrots, etc.).

From EFSA:

Retinol distribution and catabolism was determined in eight male adult subjects who received intravenous or oral doses of [14C]‐labelled retinyl acetate during vitamin A depletion (up to 771 days) and repletion (up to 372 days) (Sauberlich et al., 1974). It took about 26 days for the labelled dose to equilibrate with the total body vitamin pool that was estimated to range from 315–879 mg (1100– 3070 μmol). A fractional catabolic rate of total body retinol stores of approximately 0.5 % per day (range 0.3–0.9 %) was determined in these subjects consuming a vitamin A free diet, deduced from a mean half-life of retinol in the liver of 154 days (range 75–241 days, CV 35 %) during the depletion phase (Sauberlich et al., 1974; Olson, 1987). The absolute retinol utilisation rate ranged between 1113 and 2070 μg (3.9 and 7.2 μmol) per day among subjects at baseline and fell to low levels as depletion progressed (50–180 μg (0.2–0.6 μmol) per day).

In early studies, a depletion-repletion method was used, which involved measurement of the repletion doses of β-carotene and vitamin A that were needed to reverse vitamin A deficiency in depleted adults. This approach is no longer acceptable. A depletion study (23) was conducted in 16 healthy subjects between the ages of 19 and 34 y (7 additional subjects served as positive controls). After 12 mo of depletion, only 3 of the subjects were vitamin A deficient; a blood concentration <0.35 μmol/L (10 μg/dL) and deterioration in dark adaptation were used to define “unmistakably deficient” subjects. Of the 3 subjects with vitamin A deficiency, 2 were given β-carotene and one was given preformed vitamin A. Daily doses of 1500 μg β-carotene or 390 μg retinol for 3 wk to 6 mo were sufficient to reverse vitamin A deficiency in these subjects. Therefore, from this human study, the β-carotene/vitamin A equivalence was determined to be 3.8:1 by weight. In 1974, another vitamin A depletion-repletion study in human subjects was reported (24). Eight healthy male subjects aged 31–43 y were depleted in vitamin A within 359–771 d. Five subjects were then given vitamin A and 3 subjects were given β-carotene. Daily doses of 600 μg retinol or 1200 μg β-carotene were required to cure vitamin A deficiency. In this study, the β-carotene-to-vitamin-A equivalence was, therefore 2:1 by weight. In these studies, all subjects had been made deficient in vitamin A, so it cannot be determined whether a 3.8- or 2-μg equivalence of β-carotene to 1 μg retinol is applicable in vitamin-A–sufficient individuals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854912/

 

[Aleksandr]

The calculation is wrong because unfortunately the daily requirement is not the same as the daily depletion rate. The actual daily "requirement" has been found to be around 200-300mcg, but then due to an "uncertainty factor" the RDA was set higher, to account for possible variations. The depletion studies suggest that that actual utilization (in contrast to detoxification), if there is any, is between 50 and 200 mcg per day.

There have been depletion studies done and they showed a rough daily depletion rate of 0.5-1% of total liver stores, so during the first months you have the highest amounts excreted.

Low Toxin Diet - Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Food ain't innocent either. Uh-huh- that doesn't explain the paradox posed by the video

raypeatforum.com

Depletion Rate

User "franko" over at the Ray Peat forum has done a good job of writing about VA toxicity. He mentions a depletion rate of 0.5%. A depletion rate …

ggenereux.blog

It usually took 1-2 years for complete depletion, but it varies a lot.

The depletion studies were done decades ago, and were done with people who likely did not have a history of overconsumption (liver, milk, eggs, carrots, etc.).

From EFSA:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854912/

Great, thanks for sharing. Ok, good to know there is some kind of science behind this and something to aim at with a 2 year goal :)

 

[frederic]

Just for fun, I asked chatGPT to provide an estimate of how long a zero vitamin A diet would take to completely deplete a full liver of Vitamin A.
It gave the higher estimate of a full liver of A for an 80kg adult male as ~500,000 UI:



A few thoughts:
- From what I've anecdotally read, it seems to take people longer. I've seen people say within 2 years the majority of peoples health has returned, something like 70~80% recovery, and then slight increases from then on. Which is a far cry from 167, which is closer to just over 5 months.
- Perhaps there is some need for the body to maintain a lower vitamin A status for the healing to take place however; so when it starts lowering, immediate issues resolve, then when its below a certain threshold (or zero) deeper issues take place, perhaps something like "dna repair"? different parts of the body also seem to heal at different rates.
- This assumed 0 vitamin A being consumed, which is not possible. However, i asked it to recalculate on a low vitamin A diet (assuming 160 IU per day - which seems likely for a lot of us) and it would only take 176 days.
- This assumes healthy vitamin A metabolism - perhaps we simply don't have this. Toxic bile theory, clogged liver ducts, whatever it is.
- Perhaps there are people who make full recoveries within 5 months. Anyone heard of any?

Interesting. However, to chatGPT, vitA is an actually useful vitamin.
This doens't take into account the fact that vitA is a toxin that is excreted by the liver through the bile. Garrett Smith bases all his work on this. Is he wrong?

Furthermore, Grant Genereux is still on his quest to prove that vitA is not useful at anything in the body. Is "Utilization" of vitA actually Excretion of vitA?

According to GS, the excreting rate will greatly depend on what you do to get rid of your toxic bile (taking activated charcoal and/or psyllium, pooping several times a day, etc etc.).

 

[mosaic01]

Interesting. However, to chatGPT, vitA is an actually useful vitamin.

You can subtly confront ChatGPT with the hard truth by asking "hypothetical" questions:

 

[Peater]

You can subtly confront ChatGPT with the hard truth by asking "hypothetical" questions:

View attachment 62527
View attachment 62528

The digital snark machine, powered by soy, estrogen and SSRIs

 

[frederic]

You can subtly confront ChatGPT with the hard truth by asking "hypothetical" questions:

Thanks for the tip.

How fascinating and funny to see a machine losing its ***t.
"Intelligence", right...

 

[mosaic01]

Great, thanks for sharing. Ok, good to know there is some kind of science behind this and something to aim at with a 2 year goal :)

There is an interesting anecdote from the r/decaf subreddit. I don't remember whether I read it here in the forum. Basically there was one guy in that subreddit who convinced lots of friends and family to stop all coffee and other sources of caffeine, after the positive experience he had with it.

So he had some representative data to work with. And he noted that most of the people in his social sphere had major health breakthroughs after around 14 or 15 months, I think.

These people were not avoiding any vitamin A, but personally I think for lots of "normal" people, coffee may actually be the bottleneck with detox. My personal hypothesis is that coffee blocks the conversion of retinol to retinoic acid in such a profound and effective way, that it makes people accumulate retinol even on diets with relatively low amounts of carotenes and retinol.

And 14 months would be roughly the time when the liver of an average person is reasonably emptied.

 

[youngsinatra]

I calculated that I took around 14.000.000 IUs of oral retinol in one year cumulatively. (from liquid retinyl palmitate in MCT)

I think it will take me a while til it’s gone….

 

[Aromasin]

Interesting. However, to chatGPT, vitA is an actually useful vitamin.
This doens't take into account the fact that vitA is a toxin that is excreted by the liver through the bile. Garrett Smith bases all his work on this. Is he wrong?

Furthermore, Grant Genereux is still on his quest to prove that vitA is not useful at anything in the body. Is "Utilization" of vitA actually Excretion of vitA?

According to GS, the excreting rate will greatly depend on what you do to get rid of your toxic bile (taking activated charcoal and/or psyllium, pooping several times a day, etc etc.).

I can't understand why Grant is so unwilling to delve a little bit deeper into the biochemistry of our bodies. He has the right mind for it.
His theory is a fantastic contribution but why would he go so far as to say "vitA is literally not useful for anything in the body".

The reason vitA is a toxin (in the same way that excessive anything, found to interact in some functional way with our bodies, is a toxin) is because - with the modern shitty diet, sitting-on-our-**** lifestyle and because of actual toxins we're exposed to - it so quickly accumulates in our bodies. We don't use it up fast enough.

In one of his recent posts about niacin he showed 0 interest to actually biochemically understand it. And he talked about soda bicarbonate as if it was some unusual substance (and not made up of something our bodies possess a lot of) which coincidentally was found to do something interesting in our bodies.

 

[Aromasin]

I calculated that I took around 14.000.000 IUs of oral retinol in one year cumulatively. (from liquid retinyl palmitate in MCT)

I think it will take me a while til it’s gone….

If you take just a bit more of T3 than you need, it's probably gonna get used up way faster (as it's needed for ceruloplasmin afaik -- increased metabolic rate = more requirement for antioxidants and proteins like ceruloplasmin).

 

[youngsinatra]

If you take just a bit more of T3 than you need, it's probably gonna get used up way faster (as it's needed for ceruloplasmin afaik -- increased metabolic rate = more requirement for antioxidants and proteins like ceruloplasmin).

Yeah likely. I am taking things to speed up retinal dehydrogenase to turn retinal into retinoic acids. NAD and FAD precursors, thyroid, magnesium mainly.

 

[Aleksandr]

There is an interesting anecdote from the r/decaf subreddit. I don't remember whether I read it here in the forum. Basically there was one guy in that subreddit who convinced lots of friends and family to stop all coffee and other sources of caffeine, after the positive experience he had with it.

So he had some representative data to work with. And he noted that most of the people in his social sphere had major health breakthroughs after around 14 or 15 months, I think.

These people were not avoiding any vitamin A, but personally I think for lots of "normal" people, coffee may actually be the bottleneck with detox. My personal hypothesis is that coffee blocks the conversion of retinol to retinoic acid in such a profound and effective way, that it makes people accumulate retinol even on diets with relatively low amounts of carotenes and retinol.

And 14 months would be roughly the time when the liver of an average person is reasonably emptied.

Wow interesting, 14 months to empty a liver of caffeine or to empty one of Vit A when not having caffeine?

I believe Grant still drinks coffee, but his serum vit A levels are rock bottom

 

[grapes]

The reason vitA is a toxin (in the same way that excessive anything, found to interact in some functional way with our bodies, is a toxin) is because - with the modern shitty diet, sitting-on-our-**** lifestyle and because of actual toxins we're exposed to - it so quickly accumulates in our bodies. We don't use it up fast enough.

Maybe because there are people who move around and don't eat a "shitty diet", at least by conventional standards and still get vit A toxicity. How would you "use it up fast enough"?

 

[DanDare]

I h

- Perhaps there are people who make full recoveries within 5 months. Anyone heard of any?

I have an area of skin I was suffering with inflammation, redness and itching for over 5 years that is now fully recovered after about 4 months. it might be coincidence however I doubt it because I was suffering for that long and already knew about soap avoidance etc.

 

[Aromasin]

Maybe because there are people who move around and don't eat a "shitty diet", at least by conventional standards and still get vit A toxicity. How would you "use it up fast enough"?

I should expand. Anything that will increase aldehyde burden will interrupt vitamin A metabolism. Two problems: there's a lot of exogenous aldehyde sources in our modern lives - alcohol, tobacco smoke, exhaust from vehicles, various industrial emissions, cosmetics/hygiene products, processed foods and so on - and we live very stressful lifestyles (biochemically speaking, this creates a huge demand for endogenous antioxidants, such as glutathione, which is also what gets rid of aldehydes); we don't move much, we eat processed foods with too much sugar and pufas, we have too much sex (or more accurately, we masturbate too much lol --- this depletes a lot of histidine and histidine is a part of aldehyde enzymes)) considering how bad our diet is. For those that live a healthy lifestyle overall: molds and fungi (candida overgrowth in gut) also create aldehydes, and of course living in the city already means being exposed to aldehydes from various emissions.
All this wasn't that big of an issue a long time ago.
Ultimately, to speed up the removal of vitamin A, one would need to: create a demand for it and at the same time have his body be in a condition where it can deal with aldehydes.
The faster the metabolism, the more vit A is used. Because as metabolic rate increases, so does ROS production. And vit A is needed for ceruloplasmin.
The issue of course is that fast metabolism is only possible with a working antioxidant system (glutathione redox). And ceruloplasmin is a big part of antioxidant system.
So in a sense, the issue is finding the balance b

That's how I understand it. I'm not totally sure - others can correct me.

 

[youngsinatra]

I should expand. Anything that will increase aldehyde burden will interrupt vitamin A metabolism. Two problems: there's a lot of exogenous aldehyde sources in our modern lives - alcohol, tobacco smoke, exhaust from vehicles, various industrial emissions, cosmetics/hygiene products, processed foods and so on - and we live very stressful lifestyles (biochemically speaking, this creates a huge demand for endogenous antioxidants, such as glutathione, which is also what gets rid of aldehydes); we don't move much, we eat processed foods with too much sugar and pufas, we have too much sex (or more accurately, we masturbate too much lol --- this depletes a lot of histidine and histidine is a part of aldehyde enzymes)) considering how bad our diet is. For those that live a healthy lifestyle overall: molds and fungi (candida overgrowth in gut) also create aldehydes, and of course living in the city already means being exposed to aldehydes from various emissions.
All this wasn't that big of an issue a long time ago.
Ultimately, to speed up the removal of vitamin A, one would need to: create a demand for it and at the same time have his body be in a condition where it can deal with aldehydes.
The faster the metabolism, the more vit A is used. Because as metabolic rate increases, so does ROS production. And vit A is needed for ceruloplasmin.
The issue of course is that fast metabolism is only possible with a working antioxidant system (glutathione redox). And ceruloplasmin is a big part of antioxidant system.
So in a sense, the issue is finding the balance b

That's how I understand it. I'm not totally sure - others can correct me.

Garrett talked about the vitamin A toxicity in early humans too. It’s not only a recent development.

„Hypervitaminosis A is believed to have occurred in early humans, and the problem has persisted throughout human history.“

„Vitamin A toxicity is known to be an ancient phenomenon; fossilized skeletal remains of early humans suggest bone abnormalities may have been caused by hypervitaminosis A, as observed in a fossilised leg bone of an individual of Homo erectus, which bears abnormalities similar to those observed in people suffering from an overdose of Vitamin A in the present day.“

But I agree on the aldehydes. The aldehyde dehyrogenase and oxidase enzymes are hugely taxed by our lifestyle and diet. From my knowledge those run primarily on NAD+, FMN/FAD and Molybdopterin-Cofactor (which consists of riboflavin metabolites + molybdenum)

So keeping thyroid up, supplying NAD and FMN/FAD precursors (niacin and riboflavin) and consuming molybdenum-rich foods (beans are top-tier) are all very important for detoxifying.

 

[Aromasin]

Garrett talked about the vitamin A toxicity in early humans too. It’s not only a recent development.

„Hypervitaminosis A is believed to have occurred in early humans, and the problem has persisted throughout human history.“

„Vitamin A toxicity is known to be an ancient phenomenon; fossilized skeletal remains of early humans suggest bone abnormalities may have been caused by hypervitaminosis A, as observed in a fossilised leg bone of an individual of Homo erectus, which bears abnormalities similar to those observed in people suffering from an overdose of Vitamin A in the present day.“

Okay, that's interesting to consider. Thanks. I haven't watched enough of his content yet.
Though, just in general from an evolutionary perspective, I find it unlikely that anything claimed to be a toxin is actually a "true" toxin if it is found to have some functional role in our bodies. I know this sounds like a naturalistic fallacy - but in my opinion, if vitamin A - found in some form in many things that we and our ancestors ate - indeed was such a toxin, our bodies would have evolved more robust detox mechanisms for it (for aldehydes in general). However I don't really know too much about the tiny details that do matter - my point is a more general one ...

But I agree on the aldehydes. The aldehyde dehyrogenase and oxidase enzymes are hugely taxed by our lifestyle and diet. From my knowledge those run primarily on NAD+, FMN/FAD and Molybdopterin-Cofactor (which consists of riboflavin metabolites + molybdenum)

So keeping thyroid up, supplying NAD and FMN/FAD precursors (niacin and riboflavin) and consuming molybdenum-rich foods (beans are top-tier) are all very important for detoxifying.

Damn, I should really start eating beans lol.

 

[Nick]

Because as metabolic rate increases, so does ROS production.

Higher OXPHOS only increases ROS production significantly in an electromagnetically polluted environment. The incoherent EMF causes electrons to leak from the electron transport chain, which is what creates the ROS, which then in turn damage parts of the cell and lead to a buildup of damaged cell constituents that then burden the cytochrome P450 enzymes needed to get retinoic acid ready for excretion.

Personally, even if there is some physiological use for very small amounts of VA, I doubt that there is a such thing as "using up" any significant quantity other than in the sense of detoxification and excretion.

 

[youngsinatra]

Okay, that's interesting to consider. Thanks. I haven't watched enough of his content yet.
Though, just in general from an evolutionary perspective, I find it unlikely that anything claimed to be a toxin is actually a "true" toxin if it is found to have some functional role in our bodies. I know this sounds like a naturalistic fallacy - but in my opinion, if vitamin A - found in some form in many things that we and our ancestors ate - indeed was such a toxin, our bodies would have evolved more robust detox mechanisms for it (for aldehydes in general). However I don't really know too much about the tiny details that do matter - my point is a more general one ...


Damn, I should really start eating beans lol.

Humans probably ate quite a bit of liver to not waste any cut of meat from their hunt and accumulated toxic amounts of vitamin A. I do think vitamin A is essential and needed in small amounts, it’s not an absolute toxin but it can become one in excess. I differ from Dr. Smith on that.