Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tarmander]

One thing I am interested in trying is Cholestyramine...trying to find someone who will give me a perscription so I don't have to buy it online at high prices

It binds to fat solubles and other biotoxins way better than beans. Maybe beans on steroids. Could cut down on recovery time.

I found it researching the shoemaker protocol. This guy has a great site for it:

Mold: Are You Moldy?

Cholestyramine: Binders

 

[bistecca]

Summary:
-Grant says VA a toxin, get rid of it, here is some bad evidence
-People say what the hell, try it...notice amazing effects
-Long thread disproves or casts doubt on bad evidence
-People continue to improve on diet though it slows down after initial honeymoon...so must be round up, vaccines, feminism, gulf war syndrome, etc that is causing malfunctioning VA storage/metabolism
-conclusion: VA is toxic for some people and not others.
-If VA is toxic for you, beans seem to really help

That's the best you can do?

 

[Tarmander]

That's the best you can do?

in 5 minutes yeah...could be worse

 

[bistecca]

in 5 minutes yeah...could be worse

thanks for your effort.

 

[Dolomite]

Summary:
-Grant says VA a toxin, get rid of it, here is some bad evidence
-People say what the hell, try it...notice amazing effects
-Long thread disproves or casts doubt on bad evidence
-People continue to improve on diet though it slows down after initial honeymoon...so must be round up, vaccines, feminism, gulf war syndrome, etc that is causing malfunctioning VA storage/metabolism
-conclusion: VA is toxic for some people and not others.
-If VA is toxic for you, beans seem to really help

That is a perfect summary, not too long and it covers the high points.

@bistecca If you are feeling great with lots of Vitamin A, it must not be a problem for you. That is great, too.

 

[bistecca]

That is a perfect summary, not too long and it covers the high points.

@bistecca If you are feeling great with lots of Vitamin A, it must not be a problem for you. That is great, too.

If the summary of 318 pages of discussion doesn't include a single citation, but somehow the conclusion is the vitamin A is selectively toxic, i can conclude with certainty that this is one big circle jerk!

 

[Tarmander]

If the summary of 318 pages of discussion doesn't include a single citation, but somehow the conclusion is the vitamin A is selectively toxic, i can conclude with certainty that this is one big circle jerk!

If you are looking for citations against VA toxicity, just search the thread for Amazoniac's posts. You can click the studies without reading his posts if you are so inclined.

If you want to see the opposite, go on facebook and look at Garrett Smith's posts

 

[Amazoniac]

- Hormones and Resistance | Hans Selye

Spoiler

"Mayer & Truant B43,456/49: Both in intact and in castrate male rats kept on a vitamin-A cleficient diet, testosterone exerts its normal stimulating effect upon the seminal vesicles. The atrophy of the accessory sex organs induced by vitamin-A deficiency is presumably due to interference with the synthesis or release of testoids, not to a target organ insensitivity.

Walbach et al. C14,796/55: The skeletal lesions procluced by vitamin-A overdosage in weanling rats are aggravated by adrenalectomy but not influenced by cortisone.

Millen & Woollam C38,328/57: In rats, vitamin-A overdosage during pregnancy produces gross malformations of the brain and calvarium in the young. This teratogenic effect is considerably aggravated by cortisone.

Selye C37,276/57: Estradiol increases, whereas methyltestosterone counteracts the bone absorption and catabolism produced by hypervitaminosis A in the rat.

Selye C36,386/58: Cortisol aggravates the bone absorption produced by vitamin-A overdosage in the rat. In this respect the effect of cortisol is opposite to that of STH. @Giraffe

Grangaud & Conquy C71,751/58; G71,675/58: In rats kept on a vitamin-A deficient diet, progesterone induces an increase in body weight and reestablishes a normal estrus cycle.

Grangaud et al. C97,508/59; C88,406/60; C89,715/60: Progesterone s.c. protects the male rat against the manifestations of vitamin-A deficiency.

Fell & Thomas D10,358/61: In tissue culture, chick and mouse bone and cartilage implants rapidly disintegrate in the presence of excess vitamin A and this response was prevented by cortisol. Earlier observations had shown that, in vivo, cortisol sensitizes the rat for the production of skeletal lesions by vitamin A. "It is suggested that this discrepancy between the results obtained in vitro and in vivo is probably due to systemic factors that operate in the body but are eliminated in organ cultures."

Nicol &: Grangaud D20,176/61: In rats, thiouracil ameliorates the manifestations of vitamin-A deficiency. Progesterone has a similar effect.

Weissmann D10,768/61: In larvae of Xenopus laevis, bone absorption and other manifestations of vitamin-A overdosage were accelerated by cortisol. "This was held to be due to liberation of vitamin A from hepatic stores by the steroid, and is in contrast to the retardation of hypervitaminosis A by hydrocortisone in vitro." Presumably an excess of vitamin A causes release of cathepsins from lysosomes.

Thomas et al. D23,234/62: In rabbits, large doses of vitamin A produce cartilage changes resulting in the collapse of the ears, and loss of basophilic and metachromatic staining of their cartilage. Pretreatment with cortisone prevents these changes.

Hulth &: Westerborn D56,601/63: In rabbits, the lesions produced by cortisone in the growth cartilages are not significantly influenced by vitamin A but recovery from the papain-induced cartilaginous darnage is delayed by cortisone.

Thomas et al. D57,729/63: In rabbits, acute overdosage with vitamin-A palmitate or vitamin-A acid produced loss of hair and collapse of the ear cartilage. Histologically, depletion of cartilage matrix was seen also in the articular and epiphyseal cartilages. All these changes were largely prevented by simultaneaus administration of cortisone, and a local protective effect was demonstrated by intra-articular injection of cortisol in hypervitaminotic rabbits. The protective effect of cortisol may be due to lysosome stabilization. Earlier observations which showed a synergism between cortisone and vitamin A after chronic steroid treatment may have been due to excessive increases in the blood levels of vitamin A occasioned by glucocorticoids.

Weissmann et al. D64,001/63: Earlier experiments have shown that cortisone protects the cartilage of rabbits from dissolution by an excess of vitamin A. This was ascribed to the stabilizing action of cortisone upon lysosomes whose proteases may be responsible for the degradation of chondromucoprotein. Unexpectedly, the osseous and other types of lesions produced by vitamin-A alcohol overdosage in Xenopus laevis larvae is aggravated by cortisol, whereas similar hypervitaminosis induced by vitamin-A acid is prevented by this glucocorticoid. The difference is ascribed to the fact that vitamin-A acid is not stored in the liver to any degree, whereas the alcohol is stored as the ester and can then be released from the hepatic store by cortisol. The inhibitory effect of cortisol is attributed to lysosomal stabilization.

Fell F48,679/64: The degenerative changes developing in cartilaginous limb-bone rudiments of mice, when excess vitamin A is added in tissue culture, can be diminished by cortisol in vitro, perhaps owing to antagonistic effects upon lysosomal membranes.

Thomas E37,875/64: Review on the effects of papain, vitamin A and cortisone on cartilage matrix in vivo.

Goldhaber E5,596/65: Description of the optimum conditions for the inhibition of vitamin-A-induced bone resorption by cortisol on explants of murine bones.

Soriano G44,574/67: Fragments of murine esophagus cultured in vitro show inhibition of keratinization and differentiation into multistratified epithelium under the influence of vitamin A. Cortisol has the same effect and when given conjointly the two compounds synergize each other.

Ehrlich & Hunt 055,237/68: In rats, vitamin A has no effect upon wound healing but it overcomes the inhibitory effect of cortisone.

Janoski et al. E7,896/68 (p. 281): Review suggesting that many of the actions of glucocorticoids, particularly their inhibition of ultraviolet ray injury, vitamin-A overdosage and endotoxin shock are due to the stabilization of lysosomal membranes which prevents the escape of toxic lysosomal enzymes.

Tuchweber & Garg G70,434/70: In rats, the bone lesions characteristic of vitamin-A overdosage are inhibited by spironolactone, norbolethone and ethylestrenol; the hepatic and serum vitamin-A concentrations are simultaneously decreased.

Tuchweber et al. G70,477/70: In rats, pretreatment with spironolactone, norbolethone, ethylestrenol and oxandrolone inhibits the bone absorption and catabolism induced by hypervitaminosis A. On the other hand, estradiol, prednisolone and triamcinolone actually aggravate vitamin-A intoxication. Progesterone, DOC and thyroxine do not significantly alter this intoxication. In spironolactone and norbolethone pretreated animals, the serum clearance of vitamin A is accelerated; triamcinolone has an opposite effect, especially in chronic experiments. The hepatic vitamin-A concentration is significantly decreased by spironolactone or norbolethone, cf. Fig. 14."

I just posted something about venom D in sarcoidosis, and I wouldn't discard something of this nature to explain part of the issues encountered here, where there's a cluster of immune cells dealing with something that's yet unresolved (amplifying reactions locally) and not detectable by conventional tests.

I agree. I respect Amazoniac's dedication and work, but it's hard for me to understand anything he says with his ''coded language'', and often I have no idea what he's really saying, and the use of terms like poisonoids bothers the f*** out of me.

I'm personally on the other side, I don't think VA is a toxin at all. But context matters.

'Elementary Prolactinese' is out, but it's still on its beta version. My vocabulary is getting crazier each day, yet I can assure you that the posts are not vehicle for jokes or to annoy others, this new language has a greater purpose, but it's not noble either.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.

I would welcome a nice long succinct un-coded post summarizing the 318 pages of this thread. I'm not digging through 318 pages of anecdotes about self-experimentation..

bistecca, I would also enjoy a world free of 'warm' pigments, but Jorge is not turning the globe blank any time soon. You can pick random pages using the arrows for an idea.

 

[mrchibbs]

If the summary of 318 pages of discussion doesn't include a single citation, but somehow the conclusion is the vitamin A is selectively toxic, i can conclude with certainty that this is one big circle jerk!

I actually went through this thread last summer. I don't have the heart to read the 100s of pages that were added since.

And I read Grant's books (2 of them at least).He at least manages to make us question liberal use of vitamin A, and its perceived necessity.
But to the conclusion I came up with then, and still retain now, is that much of the supposed symptoms of VA excess happen in a state of hypothyroidism, and can be explained by the
accumulated PUFAs. And I suspect many people on this forum have eaten lots of liver liberally, to ill effects. In McGavack's Thyroid 1954, there's already a warning pertaining to the thyroid-suppressive effects of too much vitamin A. And there have been previous attempts to ascribe toxic effects to vitamin A. Ray discussed it in a One Radio Network interview last summer.

I've also accumulated enough evidence to show that vitamin A is intimately linked to steroidogenesis and other basic functions. And my personal experience has been overwhelmingly positive with vitamin A, granted I use it according to need, and eat small amounts of liver pate instead of liver meals, and I've never taken oral VA supplements, and instead just apply topical retinol on the skin. Animals go instinctively for the liver always, and liver has been a part of human diets every where.

Context matters though, and I can definitely see how vitamin A supplementation or excessive liver consumption can lead to serious adverse effects. Ray himself has read the books, and found no evidence to support Grant's claims of VA's outright toxicity. Excess VA is toxic in the same way that excess copper or iron, or vitamin D can be toxic. And in a state of hypothyroidism, you can't metabolize VA, and therefore it probably accumulates in the tissues and causes problems, the first of which is a positive feedback loop of further suppressing thyroid. But when thyroid function is high, turnover of VA is so fast that it doesn't have to chance to accumulate at all.

 

[mrchibbs]

@Amazoniac

Thanks for the references. I'll add them to my reading list.

I have also made my peace with the fact that I'll never understand your writing nor get used to your coded language, but that's fine

 

[bistecca]

Amazoniac you sound like you're trying to be Pranarupa but without any profound insights.

 

[Tarmander]

Amazoniac you sound like you're trying to be Pranarupa but without any profound insights.

Wow that is a name I have not seen mentioned around here in awhile. Is that guy's blog even still up?

 

[mrchibbs]

Wow that is a name I have not seen mentioned around here in awhile. Is that guy's blog even still up?

Nope sadly. You can still find his blog on the internet archive though.

(You missed a golden opportunity to plug in this meme, so I stole your thunder)

 

[mrchibbs]

Amazoniac you sound like you're trying to be Pranarupa but without any profound insights.

Your comment made me laugh out loud.

Although, I'll say that Amazoniac does have some good stuff, it's just that I can't decipher it most of the time. At times it feels like hieroglyphs

 

[bistecca]

Your comment made me laugh out loud.

Although, I'll say that Amazoniac does have some good stuff, it's just that I can't decipher it most of the time. At times it feels like hieroglyphs

If it's indecipherable, how can it be good..?

 

[mrchibbs]

If it's indecipherable, how can it be good..?

Sometimes I can decipher it lol

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Amazoniacs writing is sufficient.Genereux is misguided on his proofless claims of total toxicity of Retinol.That Beta Carotin could act as an antagonist at Receptorsites is likely,but not new News.

 

[bistecca]

Amazoniacs writing is sufficient.Genereux is misguided on his proofless claims of total toxicity of Retinol.That Beta Carotin could act as an antagonist at Receptorsites is likely,but not new News.

Sounds accurate.(except that amazoniacs coded language - absent a thesaurus specifically for him - is sufficient) Every "source" i've seen used so far to justify the claim that VA is "toxic" are mouse studies using isolated VA. There are a myriad of other synergizing factors that could be making the VA appear toxic. Appropriate quantities of other fat sol vitamins? Simply too much VA? PUFA? Until I see some kind of anthropological study showing that people who eat more VA are less healthy and vice versa, this is being viewed with intense skepticism.

 

[TwiNN]

Until I see some kind of anthropological study showing that people who eat more VA are less healthy and vice versa, this is being viewed with intense skepticism.

Of course it is your choice to ignore the large amount of anecdotal evidence that can be found in this thread alone. Theory must find models for successful experiments, not vice versa.

Personally, I am tired of spending my time on studies over studies to find the solution for my issues in theory. I found the solution in practice, and I am improving week after week, month after month, like many, many others do as well. No other nutritional experiment (and I tried many variants, like many others here) went that well for such an extended period of time. I am happy, I don't need theoretical proof for my well being.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Of course it is your choice to ignore the large amount of anecdotal evidence that can be found in this thread alone. Theory must find models for successful experiments, not vice versa.

Personally, I am tired of spending my time on studies over studies to find the solution for my issues in theory. I found the solution in practice, and I am improving week after week, month after month, like many, many others do as well. No other nutritional experiment (and I tried many variants, like many others here) went that well for such an extended period of time. I am happy, I don't need theoretical proof for my well being.

The thing is,much Parameters get changed by Genereux's Diet,which is clean eating with very low allergen Load.It could be these confounding factors.Also,if you have a lack of Co-factors,or excess of whatever,especially simply too much A,which impinges onto your A-metabolism,like bistecca noted,can explain the improvements of Retinol-eXorcism.But it doesnt proof that Retinol is an evironmental Poison or an Animaltoxin.I saw pictures of Mouse pups,the malformations induced by lack and overexposure of A are both obvious.A is real,Beta Carotin is fake,and dosage matters.