Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tristan Loscha]

High VA foods were a 400g of butter daily , liver (pound a week), wild salmon, up to 8 eggs a day. Also a history of accutane (20years ago) and cod liver and krill oil periodic supplementation. Usual foods otherwise that are low carb.

What were the reasons to go keto?Did you dropped the diet?If so,why?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I mentioned leafy greens because some pages ago we were discussing how it could be an interesting option to reintroduce carotenoids in the diet (also as dried herbs) because they isn't there for attraction, but as part of an effective antioxidant system to defend against stress, the addition of tocoinphernals will only accentuate this.

Poisonal can be metabolized either way (reduced to poisonol or oxidized to poisonoic acid).

If you think of it, cleavage of carotenoids is a combination of unsaturated lipids, burnium (O) and sepsium (Fe): almost a recipe for trouble if it wasn't a controlled process. When the metabolism is working right, oxygen is being put to proper use, but when you're a poor oxidizer, you may have poor oxygenation or enough but inability to use, so odd reactive products start to appear.

If there are microbial pathogens involved, once they're challenged, they should being to rely on everything that's available for defense. Some nutrients aren't problematic when employed for this purpose, such as killcium or tocoinphernals, but when it comes to poisonoids/carotenoids, when they start interacting with reactive species to kill pathogens, it can create an overwhelming amount of undesirable products that can affect enzyme function and proteins in general, interfere in poisonoids' action in gene transcription, inappropriate signaling, waste nutrients, and so on.

Interesting (plant) research:
- Lipoxygenase and carotenoids: A co-oxidation story
- The Mechanism of Oxidation of b-Carotene and Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

i see,so it is better in that regard than i thought.

 

[Amazoniac]

I'm skimming through this thread and I'm seeing a lot of mechanistic discussion, but I'm not seeing much anthropological/epidemiological discussion. Can anyone couch all this "VA is a toxin" ideating in some sort of reality-based context? If VA is a "toxin", do we find that groups of people who consume the least VA have the best health outcomes? Why aren't health outcomes much poorer in countries that eat pate? The french? The wine, eh?

And is Garrett Smith some kind of authority on the matter? In the video that was posted of him, he says quite clearly regarding roundup/glyphosate

>its really bad. its probably whats driving the vitamin a toxicity epidemic.

..?

If Roundup is driving the problem, why is the response to condemn vitamin A rather than shine the light on Roundup?

From my understanding, the reality is that it's toxic, and the context is that every additional toxin complicates things further. For example, you can jump off a cliff and get hit by a plane; and if you also supplement killciol, you realize that there's an anvil following you. The thread started in 2018 when it was still considered a nutrient, but now we know that any benefit is from a positive response to being stressed, where you force the body to build resistance against harsh conditions.

What toxin ratio in international units you find reasonable? A 5:2 D? Conversion factors for mcg are 30% and 2.5%. Correcting for this: [5*30%]:[2*2.5%] → [1.5]:[0.05] = A 30:1 D.

In milk, the mcg ratio is something like A 300:1 D equivalents.

If you need a lot of tissue repair, you can expect that your requirements for poisonoids are going to be increased (although not as much as for a growing faetus), and that the body will become a carotenoid-absorbing machine even if you can't cleave them right at the time because it creates a reservoir for later use. Given that you can also recover it from the asymmetric products, it's one more reason in support of this measure. I don't know how well it discriminates those that can and can't intoxicate you for selective uptake.

But that's for ratio, not adsolute amounts, you might need both in large amounts and vailaivalibalaialibyilly of others nutrients or metabolism will limit how far you can go without issues. What's common here is having to drop poisonoids and venomoids. There are many hints that it's a systemic problem, or it can be interpreted as hypersensitivity to environmental toxins.

 

[bistecca]

From my understanding, the reality is that it's toxic, and every additional toxin complicates things further. For example, you can jump off a cliff and get hit by a plane; and if you also supplement killciol, you realize that there's an anvil following you. The thread started in 2018 when it was still considered a nutrient, but now we know that any benefit is from a positive response to being stressed, where you force the body to build resistance against harsh conditions.

What toxin ratio in international units you find reasonable? A 5:2 D? Conversion factors for mcg are 30% and 2.5%. Correcting for this: [5*30%]:[2*2.5%] → [1.5]:[0.05] = A 30:1 D.

In milk, the mcg ratio is something like A 300:1 D equivalents.

If you need a lot of tissue repair, you can expect that your requirements for poisonoids are going to be increased (although not as much as for a growing faetus), and that the body will become a carotenoid-absorbing machine even if you can't cleave them right at the time because it creates a reservoir for later use. Given that you can also recover it from the assymetric products, it's one more reason in support of this measure. I don't know how well it discriminates those that can and can't intoxicate you for selective uptake.

But that's for ratio, not adsolute amounts, you might need both in large amounts and vailaivalibalaialibyilly of others nutrients or metabolism will limit how far you can go without issues. What's common here is having to drop poisonoids and venomoids. There are many hints that it's a systemic problem, or it can be interpreted as hypersensitivity to environmental toxins.

Thanks for your reply and all, but you didn't address the primary question and when you speak in your own coded language you sound like an adolescent.

 

[Blossom]

At least one thing in the world has remained the same.

 

[InChristAlone]

Still avoiding major vitamin A sources here! few eggs (body doesn't like them), rarely milk, but still consume haagen dazs as a treat, cheese because it's an amazing source of calcium and just delicious! No vitamin A supps, no liver. I will eat carotenoids especially in season with watermelon and cantaloupe. I'm not noticing any signs I could be low on it. Rather when I have consumed added vitamin A it seems to flare things up in my body. Maybe it demands higher calcium than I have been eating. But either way I think vitamin A supps are garbage. My vitamin D is probably pretty good right now too living in the south. Haven't had a cold since September which was stress related. Meanwhile people are dying of hypoxia from destroyed hemoglobin. I guess that toxic ascorbic acid is also a godsend.

 

[Orion]

I have made it to 1.5yrs on very restrictive low VA diet, my physical and mental health continues to improve, almost feels like I am reversing aging.

 

[Hermes]

I have made it to 1.5yrs on very restrictive low VA diet, my physical and mental health continues to improve, almost feels like I am reversing aging.

What do you eat?

I eat oats, ground beef, rice, lemonade, apple juice, white sugar, potatoes, hamburger patties, various beef cuts, mayonnaise, moustard, bread, sauerkraut, salami, sausages. That's about it. When eating in a restaustrant, I try to choose to low VA menu, but often then not I need to make compromises.

 

[Orion]

What do you eat?

I eat oats, ground beef, rice, lemonade, apple juice, white sugar, potatoes, hamburger patties, various beef cuts, mayonnaise, moustard, bread, sauerkraut, salami, sausages. That's about it. When eating in a restaustrant, I try to choose to low VA menu, but often then not I need to make compromises.

Looks like the only difference is beans, I eat lots of beans with each meal, black, lima, black-eyed. Soluble fiber is important to mop VA coming out it bile, made lots of progress adding back in beans, after being very restrictive the first year; rice/meat. The rest of my food list is very similar to yours. I also eat sprouted wheat breads.

 

[bistecca]

Alright, another question.. If a lot of you are on a VA elimination diet and it includes beef, are you eating only lean beef? Are we lumping Vitamin E in as a toxin too? If you're eating grass fed beef, unless you're eating 100% lean, you're eating a moderate level of fat which contains both vitamin A and E. If you're avoiding fat, do you not consider vitamin E important? Is it disingenuous to call it a VA elimination diet if you're still eating beef? Grass fed beef has 10x the tissue levels of vitamin A in comparison to grain fed.. Not sure what data you're using to consider beef low VA.

 

[ursidae]

way too many past accutane users on this thread

 

[mrchibbs]

Thanks for your reply and all, but you didn't address the primary question and when you speak in your own coded language you sound like an adolescent.

I agree. I respect Amazoniac's dedication and work, but it's hard for me to understand anything he says with his ''coded language'', and often I have no idea what he's really saying, and the use of terms like poisonoids bothers the f*** out of me.

I'm personally on the other side, I don't think VA is a toxin at all. But context matters.

 

[mrchibbs]

Still avoiding major vitamin A sources here! few eggs (body doesn't like them), rarely milk, but still consume haagen dazs as a treat, cheese because it's an amazing source of calcium and just delicious! No vitamin A supps, no liver. I will eat carotenoids especially in season with watermelon and cantaloupe. I'm not noticing any signs I could be low on it. Rather when I have consumed added vitamin A it seems to flare things up in my body. Maybe it demands higher calcium than I have been eating. But either way I think vitamin A supps are garbage. My vitamin D is probably pretty good right now too living in the south. Haven't had a cold since September which was stress related. Meanwhile people are dying of hypoxia from destroyed hemoglobin. I guess that toxic ascorbic acid is also a godsend.

I'll agree with you here, oral VA supplements are garbage. Although, I do think there is a use for topical VA in MCT oil. (The health natura product) I've found it helpful in the past.

 

[bistecca]

I agree. I respect Amazoniac's dedication and work, but it's hard for me to understand anything he says with his ''coded language'', and often I have no idea what he's really saying, and the use of terms like poisonoids bothers the f*** out of me.

I'm personally on the other side, I don't think VA is a toxin at all. But context matters.

I would welcome a nice long succinct un-coded post summarizing the 318 pages of this thread. I'm not digging through 318 pages of anecdotes about self-experimentation.. If Haidut can make a nice concise well-cited post elucidating the complex ideas he discusses, there's no reason amazoniac or anyone else can't as well. I would also love for anyone to address the whole anthropological/epidemiological side of things by showing a correlation between VA and some specific end-point, and explaining the health of countries like France and Germany where organ consumption is common.

 

[mrchibbs]

I would welcome a nice long succinct un-coded post summarizing the 318 pages of this thread. I'm not digging through 318 pages of anecdotes about self-experimentation.. If Haidut can make a nice concise well-cited post elucidating the complex ideas he discusses, there's no reason amazoniac or anyone else can't as well. I would also love for anyone to address the whole anthropological/epidemiological side of things by showing a correlation between VA and some specific end-point, and explaining the health of countries like France and Germany where organ consumption is common.

+1

 

[bistecca]

I'm reading through the "poisoning for profits" pdf and Grants blog and ultimately I'm unimpressed with his rigor and logical consistency. In his post on embryogenesis, he states

"Over the last few months I’ve learned of more people who have been strictly following a carnivore diet (exclusively muscle meets) for five or more years. Not all at surprisingly, they are doing very well. Combined with all the evidence I’ve included in my eBooks, and with my own 5+ years on a vitamin A free diet, it’s clear that the theory of vitamin A being an essential nutrient is patently wrong."

He is a listed speaker at the 2020 Boulder Carnivore Conference.

But this study "A review of fatty acid profiles and antioxidant content in grass-fed and grain-fed beef" reports on the carotene content of lean beef as being as high as .74 micrograms/gram tissue in grass fed beef. That translates to over 1 IU carotene per gram of tissue. If he is condoning a carnivore diet which would be something like a pound of meat a day at least, that translates to roughly, AT LEAST 400 IU of Carotene alone, in the LEAN TISSUE ALONE. That excludes retinol and excludes the concentration in fat. Recommended daily dose is something like 900 IU of retinol equivalent.


So for him to say that a carnivore diet( simply because it doesn't contain organs) is low VA, or that he is on a Vitamin A FREE diet, is misinformed at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.(well i guess if he was a confusion promoting shill, that would be worst case)

Bueller? Bueller?

/thread?

Also, I just watched his youtube video about how he killed his gerbils in his garage and that was some sad ***t.

 

[Infarouge]

Genereux's categorical demonization of retinol strikes me of a recent trend I have noticed in the health interwebs. Engineers and other experts in non nutrition/physiology/medical fields championing a contrarian view about a particular nutrient and gaining large followings seemingly from the radical nature of their assertions. Retinol is so central to nutritional science that pioneers such as Weston Price travelled the world painstakingly documenting the remarkable benefits of diets high in it and related fat soluble nutrients. It seems obvious that if retinol was as bad as Genereux claims, the entire paleo/primal/carnivore diet movements would be riddled with casualties from vitamin A poisoning.

Even the conventional claims of retinol toxicity from doses over 10,000iu were refuted by numerous German studies where doses upwards of 300,000iu were used for long periods in the treatment of acne with few if any observable side effects. These lead to the patenting of the retinoid fraction tretinoin, for the treatment of acne (Accutane). I think many of the fears associated with retinol stem from the massive overdoses of isolated tretinoin therapy. It's interesting that around the time tretinoin was found to be effective in treating cancer, the establishment began demonizing it's use.

 

[Mossy]

I’m not certain what conclusion to draw on the vitamin A argument, but I know that Ray continually talks about vitamin A and D for help against the Corona virus. As well, I can say that taking retinyl acetate clears up my skin. Liver helps my skin as well.

 

[Tarmander]

I have made it to 1.5yrs on very restrictive low VA diet, my physical and mental health continues to improve, almost feels like I am reversing aging.

Nice work man.

I have also noticed beans being very helpful. When I went from a couple tablespoons to a whole can per day of refried beans in coconut oil...I noticed a definite improvement. It isn't sudden though, it kind of sneaks up on you. Hate to say it but smith is right about somethings

At least one thing in the world has remained the same.

ha!

 

[Tarmander]

I would welcome a nice long succinct un-coded post summarizing the 318 pages of this thread. I'm not digging through 318 pages of anecdotes about self-experimentation.. If Haidut can make a nice concise well-cited post elucidating the complex ideas he discusses, there's no reason amazoniac or anyone else can't as well. I would also love for anyone to address the whole anthropological/epidemiological side of things by showing a correlation between VA and some specific end-point, and explaining the health of countries like France and Germany where organ consumption is common.

Summary:
-Grant says VA a toxin, get rid of it, here is some bad evidence
-People say what the hell, try it...notice amazing effects
-Long thread disproves or casts doubt on bad evidence
-People continue to improve on diet though it slows down after initial honeymoon...so must be round up, vaccines, feminism, gulf war syndrome, etc that is causing malfunctioning VA storage/metabolism
-conclusion: VA is toxic for some people and not others.
-If VA is toxic for you, beans seem to really help