Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tristan Loscha]

I have acne on my legs and sometimes on my face, which gets better after I get sun. Body hair doesn't grow on the patches with acne. Also sebborrheic dermatitis type issues on my scalp and face, angualr chelitits. My acne started 3 years ago not long before my chronic digestive issues/ibs started. As of now digestion is pretty much fixed, only some bloating.

For the angular cheilitis,did you tried higher dosed,small dose per serving,high dose frequency B-group supplementation?Maybe remnant pathology of times of worse digestion.Bs always felt benign to me.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

For the angular cheilitis,did you tried higher dosed,small dose per serving,high dose frequency B-group supplementation?Maybe remnant pathology of times of worse digestion.Bs always felt benign to me.

Yes. Thiamine deficiency was behind lot o digestive issues. Tried b2 which helped a bit. Maybe need to supplement longer. I remember having angular chelitis during my childhood and teens too - my mom told me it's because of bad hygiene .

 

[mrchibbs]

Recent observation I made. I was sitting in the reading a book and 30-45 minutes later my vision became blurry which went away after 1 hour. It happened a few times in the last two weeks. Haven't experienced this prior to that, although sun exposure made me energized and happy. Can it be due to VA mobilization? I was hypothyroid for the last 2-3 years and was eating 150g of liver weekly and eggs everyday plus dairy. Vitamin E makes me feel great too.

I can’t be sure but I think it makes sense. Although its not like you had liver daily, but clearly being hypo means you cannot use that vitamin A fully. And if the vitamin E feels good its probably a good indicator that it’s helping to prevent VA from oxidation. The real way to move forward here is to ramp up thyroid. I always found this entire thread a little hilarious, as elevated thyroid function is the quickest way to deplete vitamin A.

 

[Amazoniac]

Below, they show that with b-carotene, a smaller fraction is converted, yet with an improved utilization and less of the imperfect cleavage-products in the presence of vitamin E. It varies between species and the conditions, but a similar trend is expect'd for humanoids. Wow is leafy greens with it?

- The effect of α-tocopherol on the oxidative cleavage of β-carotene

"As shown in Table 1, about 80% of the b-C (173 pmol out of 219 pmol) remained after the 1 h incubation with the postmitochondrial fraction of rat intestine in the presence of a-tocopherol. Of the 46 pmol of b-C that were consumed, 79 pmol of RAL were formed. Under these conditions, the stoichiometry of conversion of b-C was 1.72 molecules of RAL formed for each molecule of b-C consumed. In marked contrast, in the absence of a-tocopherol, less than 6% of the b-C (10 pmol out of 168 pmol) remained. From the 158 pmol of b-C consumed, 27 pmol of RAL were formed after 1 h incubation. Therefore, the stoichiometry of conversion of b-C to RAL in the absence of a-tocopherol was 0.17, which is 1/10 of that compared to the conversion in the presence of a-tocopherol. In addition, 30 pmol of b-apo-CALs were also formed in the absence of a-tocopherol."

Spoiler: Table 1

Perfect cleavage would yield 2 molecules of poisonal (explains the difference above).

"When the postmitochondrial fraction of rat intestine was incubated with 15 mM b-C in the presence of 0.1 mM a-tocopherol for 1 h, without NAD+, only RAL was produced (Fig. 4A). On the other hand, with the addition of 1 mM NAD+, both RAL and RA were produced (Fig. 4B). In the absence of both a-tocopherol and NAD+, b-C produced b-apo-CAL and RAL, but not RA (Fig. 4C). The addition of 1 mM NAD1 under these conditions produced RA as well as b-apo-CAL and RAL (Fig. 4D)."

"To verify that RA was formed from the enzymatic oxidation of RAL, RAL was incubated with the postmitochondrial fraction of rat intestine using the same conditions as the b-C incubation. As shown in Table 2, no RA was produced from 0.2 mM RAL in the presence or absence of NAD+ in the absence of tissue. However, in the tissue incubation, more than half of the RAL was converted to RA in the presence of NAD+, whereas in the absence of NAD+, only small amounts of RA were formed. Similar results were obtained in the presence or absence of a-tocopherol as shown in Table 2. In the absence of NAD1, only 10% of the RAL that disappeared was oxidized to RA."

Spoiler: Table 2

"Our data suggest that in the presence of an antioxidant such as a-tocopherol, b-carotene is converted exclusively to retinal by central cleavage. In the absence of an antioxidant, b-carotene is cleaved randomly by enzyme related radicals to produce b-apo-carotenoids, and these b-apo-carotenoids can be oxidized further to retinoic acid via retinal."

Spoiler: Diagram

 

[VA2020]

I just joined this group purely to see the counter argument to the Grant Genereux theory. I have been on a VA depleted diet for over 6 months now. I have only seen improvement but its slow. The reason its slow is that my serum retinol has not dropped in this time. Obviously my body is drawing down VA from liver and tissues.

FYI my symptoms have been blurred vision, cracked lips and irritated skin. High serum retinol brought on by a keto diet loaded with high VA foods.

Kudos to Ray Peat for not censoring this thread. Grant wouldn't have done so either, he has an open mind.

 

[VA2020]

Recent observation I made. I was sitting in the reading a book and 30-45 minutes later my vision became blurry which went away after 1 hour. It happened a few times in the last two weeks. Haven't experienced this prior to that, although sun exposure made me energized and happy. Can it be due to VA mobilization? I was hypothyroid for the last 2-3 years and was eating 150g of liver weekly and eggs everyday plus dairy. Vitamin E makes me feel great too.

This happened to me also, what form do you take vitamin E in?

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

This happened to me also, what form do you take vitamin E in?

The Tocovit from Georgi (Idealabs).

 

[bistecca]

>Wow is leafy greens with it?

Wow is leafy greens with it?

Leafy greens have the highest Vit E :PUFA ratio as well, as per Chris Masterjohn. I don't think this is an argument for eating leafy greens as much as it is for eating the things that eat leafy greens which probably accumulate the valuable compounds and distill out the metabolic stressors and handle the bacterial burden as well. The best grass fed beef fat is golden in color for good reason.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Below, they show that with b-carotene, a smaller fraction is converted, yet with an improved utilization and less of the imperfect cleavage-products in the presence of vitamin E. It varies between species and the conditions, but a similar trend is expect'd for humanoids. Wow is leafy greens with it?

"As shown in Table 1, about 80% of the b-C (173 pmol out of 219 pmol) remained after the 1 h incubation with the postmitochondrial fraction of rat intestine in the presence of a-tocopherol. Of the 46 pmol of b-C that were consumed, 79 pmol of RAL were formed. Under these conditions, the stoichiometry of conversion of b-C was 1.72 molecules of RAL formed for each molecule of b-C consumed. In marked contrast, in the absence of a-tocopherol, less than 6% of the b-C (10 pmol out of 168 pmol) remained. From the 158 pmol of b-C consumed, 27 pmol of RAL were formed after 1 h incubation. Therefore, the stoichiometry of conversion of b-C to RAL in the absence of a-tocopherol was 0.17, which is 1/10 of that compared to the conversion in the presence of a-tocopherol. In addition, 30 pmol of b-apo-CALs were also formed in the absence of a-tocopherol."

Spoiler: Table 1

View attachment 17683

Perfect cleavage would yield 2 molecules of poisonal (explains the difference above).

"When the postmitochondrial fraction of rat intestine was incubated with 15 mM b-C in the presence of 0.1 mM a-tocopherol for 1 h, without NAD+, only RAL was produced (Fig. 4A). On the other hand, with the addition of 1 mM NAD+, both RAL and RA were produced (Fig. 4B). In the absence of both a-tocopherol and NAD+, b-C produced b-apo-CAL and RAL, but not RA (Fig. 4C). The addition of 1 mM NAD1 under these conditions produced RA as well as b-apo-CAL and RAL (Fig. 4D)."

"To verify that RA was formed from the enzymatic oxidation of RAL, RAL was incubated with the postmitochondrial fraction of rat intestine using the same conditions as the b-C incubation. As shown in Table 2, no RA was produced from 0.2 mM RAL in the presence or absence of NAD+ in the absence of tissue. However, in the tissue incubation, more than half of the RAL was converted to RA in the presence of NAD+, whereas in the absence of NAD+, only small amounts of RA were formed. Similar results were obtained in the presence or absence of a-tocopherol as shown in Table 2. In the absence of NAD1, only 10% of the RAL that disappeared was oxidized to RA."

Spoiler: Table 2

View attachment 17684

"Our data suggest that in the presence of an antioxidant such as a-tocopherol, b-carotene is converted exclusively to retinal by central cleavage. In the absence of an antioxidant, b-carotene is cleaved randomly by enzyme related radicals to produce b-apo-carotenoids, and these b-apo-carotenoids can be oxidized further to retinoic acid via retinal."

Spoiler: Diagram

View attachment 17685

I saw that before,but to make sure,the best we can get get out of this is retinal and retinoic acid,but not Retinol,because it isnt convertible to that anymore,or is retinal and retinoic acid recoverable to form Retinol proper?Which is of importance for reasons of privilege of distribution,tissue access and transport.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

>Wow is leafy greens with it?


Leafy greens have the highest Vit E :PUFA ratio as well, as per Chris Masterjohn. I don't think this is an argument for eating leafy greens as much as it is for eating the things that eat leafy greens which probably accumulate the valuable compounds and distill out the metabolic stressors and handle the bacterial burden as well. The best grass fed beef fat is golden in color for good reason.

indeed,and raw beef can be an indicator for true VE requirements,which comes from meat,and not seeds.

 

[bistecca]

indeed,and raw beef can be an indicator for true VE requirements,which comes from meat,and not seeds.

I've eaten and processed(in butchery) a lot of different beef and it always amazed me the changes in attributes of beef when it is raised differently. You could see it in the fat and tissue(grass fed has golden fat and darker meat indicating mitochondrial density, in contrast to the white fat and watery, edema-like tissues of grain fed animals), you could smell it in the fat(grass fed smells, in the optimum circumstance, fresh and sweet and floral- grain fed smells sour like week-old gym socks), and you can taste it. Of interest to me is how different forage has different tocopherol and carotenoid compound levels and moreover how soil attributes and soil geologic parent material impact those forage attributes.

 

[VA2020]

I've eaten and processed(in butchery) a lot of different beef and it always amazed me the changes in attributes of beef when it is raised differently. You could see it in the fat and tissue(grass fed has golden fat and darker meat indicating mitochondrial density, in contrast to the white fat and watery, edema-like tissues of grain fed animals), you could smell it in the fat(grass fed smells, in the optimum circumstance, fresh and sweet and floral- grain fed smells sour like week-old gym socks), and you can taste it. Of interest to me is how different forage has different tocopherol and carotenoid compound levels and moreover how soil attributes and soil geologic parent material impact those forage attributes.

I thought I read somewhere that the yellow colour in the fat is down to the carotenoids in the grass?

 

[bistecca]

I thought I read somewhere that the yellow colour in the fat is down to the carotenoids in the grass?

Vitamin A(carotenoids and retinoids) and Vitamin E(all the tocopherols) compounds all have a yellow/golden/amber hue and the fat color is a proxy measurement for all of those being present to some degree.

"amber is the color of your energy"

 

[EIRE24]

I just joined this group purely to see the counter argument to the Grant Genereux theory. I have been on a VA depleted diet for over 6 months now. I have only seen improvement but its slow. The reason its slow is that my serum retinol has not dropped in this time. Obviously my body is drawing down VA from liver and tissues.

FYI my symptoms have been blurred vision, cracked lips and irritated skin. High serum retinol brought on by a keto diet loaded with high VA foods.

Kudos to Ray Peat for not censoring this thread. Grant wouldn't have done so either, he has an open mind.

What were you eating on your keto diet?

 

[mrchibbs]

I just joined this group purely to see the counter argument to the Grant Genereux theory. I have been on a VA depleted diet for over 6 months now. I have only seen improvement but its slow. The reason its slow is that my serum retinol has not dropped in this time. Obviously my body is drawing down VA from liver and tissues.

FYI my symptoms have been blurred vision, cracked lips and irritated skin. High serum retinol brought on by a keto diet loaded with high VA foods.

Kudos to Ray Peat for not censoring this thread. Grant wouldn't have done so either, he has an open mind.

You do know that Ray Peat is not related in any way to this forum?

As a side note, Ray did say he read Grant's book, and he doesn't seem to think the evidence is there to support Grant's claims.
I personally think there is nuance to the vitamin A story, but I also don't think it is toxic by a long shot, but I don't want pollute this
thread with my ideas, I could be wrong, and people need to do their own research.

 

[Diokine]

I have a net
and is wove with ret
i no ic acid
Too loose and all falls through
too tight and water's not blue.

 

[Amazoniac]

>Wow is leafy greens with it?


Leafy greens have the highest Vit E :PUFA ratio as well, as per Chris Masterjohn. I don't think this is an argument for eating leafy greens as much as it is for eating the things that eat leafy greens which probably accumulate the valuable compounds and distill out the metabolic stressors and handle the bacterial burden as well. The best grass fed beef fat is golden in color for good reason.

I mentioned leafy greens because some pages ago we were discussing how it could be an interesting option to reintroduce carotenoids in the diet (also as dried herbs) because they isn't there for attraction, but as part of an effective antioxidant system to defend against stress, the addition of tocoinphernals will only accentuate this.

I saw that before,but to make sure,the best we can get get out of this is retinal and retinoic acid,but not Retinol,because it isnt convertible to that anymore,or is retinal and retinoic acid recoverable to form Retinol proper?Which is of importance for reasons of privilege of distribution,tissue access and transport.

Poisonal can be metabolized either way (reduced to poisonol or oxidized to poisonoic acid).

If you think of it, cleavage of carotenoids is a combination of unsaturated lipids, burnium (O) and sepsium (Fe): almost a recipe for trouble if it wasn't a controlled process. When the metabolism is working right, oxygen is being put to proper use, but when you're a poor oxidizer, you may have poor oxygenation or enough but inability to use, so odd reactive products start to appear.

If there are microbial pathogens involved, once they're challenged, they should being to rely on everything that's available for defense. Some nutrients aren't problematic when employed for this purpose, such as killcium or tocoinphernals, but when it comes to poisonoids/carotenoids, when they start interacting with reactive species to kill pathogens, it can create an overwhelming amount of undesirable products that can affect enzyme function and proteins in general, interfere in poisonoids' action in gene transcription, inappropriate signaling, waste nutrients, and so on.

Interesting (plant) research:
- Lipoxygenase and carotenoids: A co-oxidation story
- The Mechanism of Oxidation of b-Carotene and Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

 

[bistecca]

I'm skimming through this thread and I'm seeing a lot of mechanistic discussion, but I'm not seeing much anthropological/epidemiological discussion. Can anyone couch all this "VA is a toxin" ideating in some sort of reality-based context? If VA is a "toxin", do we find that groups of people who consume the least VA have the best health outcomes? Why aren't health outcomes much poorer in countries that eat pate? The french? The wine, eh?

And is Garrett Smith some kind of authority on the matter? In the video that was posted of him, he says quite clearly regarding roundup/glyphosate

>its really bad. its probably whats driving the vitamin a toxicity epidemic.

..?

If Roundup is driving the problem, why is the response to condemn vitamin A rather than shine the light on Roundup?

 

[VA2020]

You do know that Ray Peat is not related in any way to this forum?

Lol had no idea!

 

[VA2020]

What were you eating on your keto diet?

High VA foods were a 400g of butter daily , liver (pound a week), wild salmon, up to 8 eggs a day. Also a history of accutane (20years ago) and cod liver and krill oil periodic supplementation. Usual foods otherwise that are low carb.