Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[mrchibbs]

People complain of Prolactinese, the language of the future, but aren't bothered by shady nomenclature being employ'd on a daily basis.

Have you noticed how much confusion the name attributed to the enzyme that metabolizes poisonol ↔ poisonal created above? It has different substrates and a reversible action, how can you prioritize one over the other in this case that preference isn't clear? You can name it poisonal reductase, but it could be acting on poisonol by oxidizing it.

A similar problem exists with carbionic annihilase (it hints at the substrate and function, what's going to be doing with the molecule in question). Most people think of it as an enzyme responsible for the (reversible) hydration of waste productide, yet..

- Carbonic anhydrase - Wikipedia

"An anhydrase is defined as an enzyme that catalyzes the removal of a water molecule from a compound, and so it is this "reverse" reaction that gives carbonic anhydrase its name, because it removes a water molecule from carbonic acid."​

To be frank, @Amazoniac I think the language you're using is a main factor contributing to the confusion.
I enjoy your research work and insights though.

 

[JohnHafterson]

I would welcome a nice long succinct un-coded post summarizing the 318 pages of this thread. I'm not digging through 318 pages of anecdotes about self-experimentation.. If Haidut can make a nice concise well-cited post elucidating the complex ideas he discusses, there's no reason amazoniac or anyone else can't as well. I would also love for anyone to address the whole anthropological/epidemiological side of things by showing a correlation between VA and some specific end-point, and explaining the health of countries like France and Germany where organ consumption is common.

I lived in France for a while in both urban and rural regions. Organ consumption was not super common.

I have family in Normandy and their diet was pretty diversified: cheeses, pate, various fowl, rabbit, beef, crazy sausages: blood, donkey, etc. Organs may have been incorporated into sausages but organs were never really stand alone items and if so infrequent. Maybe sweet breads ( thymus ). But they were very rural old school in a chateau.

Pate was small amounts maybe a table spoon or two at a time.

They did consume a lot of wine which probably clears out destroys the moderate amounts of Vitamin A they got.

 

[mrchibbs]

I lived in France for a while in both urban and rural regions. Organ consumption was not super common.

I have family in Normandy and their diet was pretty diversified: cheeses, pate, various fowl, rabbit, beef, crazy sausages: blood, donkey, etc. Organs may have been incorporated into sausages but organs were never really stand alone items and if so infrequent. Maybe sweet breads ( thymus ). But they were very rural old school in a chateau.

Pate was small amounts maybe a table spoon or two at a time.

They did consume a lot of wine which probably clears out destroys the moderate amounts of Vitamin A they got.

In most cultures, that's the way organs are consumed. In small amounts (tbsp like you described) or a meal infrequently. Which makes sense because there's comparatively less of it than other cuts of meat.

This is quite different from some of the experiments I've seen on this forum, of hypothyroid individuals eating several meals of liver a week for extended periods of time, something which has never been advised by Ray or most people.

Aside from that, French people get a lot of regular VA from butter, cheese, milk, various cuts of meats and various vegetables. I think this is the best and safest approach, small regular amounts of VA and high thyroid function = very high turnover ratio.

If anything the wine probably has an antioxidant effects and prevents VA oxidation, rather than destroying it.

 

[Tarmander]

That stuff is the Jolly Joker of gastro doctors I swear - if other drugs fail that stuff seem to help a lot of different conditions.

That is interesting, can you tell me more? Have you tried it? Having a hellava time getting a script for it. Have a cholesterol test result on wednesday I hope will work

 

[JohnHafterson]

In most cultures, that's the way organs are consumed. In small amounts (tbsp like you described) or a meal infrequently. Which makes sense because there's comparatively less of it than other cuts of meat.

This is quite different from some of the experiments I've seen on this forum, of hypothyroid individuals eating several meals of liver a week for extended periods of time, something which has never been advised by Ray or most people.

Aside from that, French people get a lot of regular VA from butter, cheese, milk, various cuts of meats and various vegetables. I think this is the best and safest approach, small regular amounts of VA and high thyroid function = very high turnover ratio.

If anything the wine probably has an antioxidant effects and prevents VA oxidation, rather than destroying it.

Yeah agreed, I just think when people mentioned organ consumption it's likely perceived as copious by some.

Not sure about Alcohol and Vitamin A litterature shows adverse effects on retinoid metabolism:

1. alcohol inhibits the synthesis of the transcriptionally active retinoid, retinoic acid, by competing for alcohol (retinol) dehydrogenases and aldheyde (retinal) dehydrogenases catalyzing retinoic acid synthesis;

2. alcohol accelerates retinoid oxidation, involving ethanol-inducible cytochromes like Cyp2E1;and

3. alcohol increases mobilization of stored retinoid from the liver to other tissues.

Though if not alcoholic likely not a big deal.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

That is interesting, can you tell me more? Have you tried it? Having a hellava time getting a script for it. Have a cholesterol test result on wednesday I hope will work

I've spent 6 months at a gastroenterology ward as part of myGP rotation as a resident. There were a lot of different patients, some of them were severe. I remember one patient who had chronic diarrhea after hernia surgery which the drug fixed. Another patient who had severe weight loss and chronic diarrhea after a bunch of GI surgeries was greatly improved on the drug. It's not a permanent fix though - just symptom management. A lot of times the doc used only half the packet too. In my country you'll need a prescription from a GI doc and it's pretty expensive too.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Yeah agreed, I just think when people mentioned organ consumption it's likely perceived as copious by some.

Not sure about Alcohol and Vitamin A litterature shows adverse effects on retinoid metabolism:

1. alcohol inhibits the synthesis of the transcriptionally active retinoid, retinoic acid, by competing for alcohol (retinol) dehydrogenases and aldheyde (retinal) dehydrogenases catalyzing retinoic acid synthesis;

2. alcohol accelerates retinoid oxidation, involving ethanol-inducible cytochromes like Cyp2E1;and

3. alcohol increases mobilization of stored retinoid from the liver to other tissues.

Though if not alcoholic likely not a big deal.

Ever since I started peating (liver weekly) alcohol makes feel like ***t. Prior to that alcohol made me feel amazing. Maybe a connection, who knows.

 

[mrchibbs]

Ever since I started peating (liver weekly) alcohol makes feel like ***t. Prior to that alcohol made me feel amazing. Maybe a connection, who knows.

Opposite here, a little bit of alcohol daily makes me feel amazing. I do mostly drink gin & tonic, and clear liquor are less estrogenic. When you add carbonated water + sugar to the drink it protects from adverse effects. A couple of drops of MB in the drink are great as well.

 

[Tarmander]

I've spent 6 months at a gastroenterology ward as part of myGP rotation as a resident. There were a lot of different patients, some of them were severe. I remember one patient who had chronic diarrhea after hernia surgery which the drug fixed. Another patient who had severe weight loss and chronic diarrhea after a bunch of GI surgeries was greatly improved on the drug. It's not a permanent fix though - just symptom management. A lot of times the doc used only half the packet too. In my country you'll need a prescription from a GI doc and it's pretty expensive too.

Nice thanks

Ever since I started peating (liver weekly) alcohol makes feel like ***t. Prior to that alcohol made me feel amazing. Maybe a connection, who knows.

Peating, with its high amount of vitamin A I am guessing and the liver I was eating, made my liver function go from drinking at times was okay, no big deal...to now drinking something that isn't whiskey makes the next day feel terrible

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

Opposite here, a little bit of alcohol daily makes me feel amazing. I do mostly drink gin & tonic, and clear liquor are less estrogenic. When you add carbonated water + sugar to the drink it protects from adverse effects. A couple of drops of MB in the drink are great as well.

Yes, I enjoy good whiskey and a maybe a good beer, but I was about getting really drunk - before prophet Peat getting drunk made me fell amazing and I was exited about getting drunk - now it's the opposite. Ahh, the good ol' MB - the girls at the bar were looking strangely at me when I was putting it in the drink.

 

[JohnHafterson]

Ethanol Effects On Physiological Retinoic Acid Levels

"Many symptoms of vitamin A (atRA precursor) deficiency and/or toxicity overlap with those of another pleiotropic agent—ethanol."

Moderate alcohol intake induces thermogenic brown/beige adipocyte formation via elevating retinoic acid signaling

"Alcohol and retinol (ROL) share common metabolic enzymes that are involved in their respective conversions into acetic acid and retinoic acid (RA)"

It's pretty complex and like most things mileage may vary.

I may be able to drive retinol to retinoic acid and testosterone with liver and red wine based on morning wood. Though need to work this out more.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes, I enjoy good whiskey and a maybe a good beer, but I was about getting really drunk - before prophet Peat getting drunk made me fell amazing and I was exited about getting drunk - now it's the opposite. Ahh, the good ol' MB - the girls at the bar were looking strangely at me when I was putting it in the drink.

lol I can visualize the scene, that looks a little weird

 

[Twohandsondeck]

221b: Morley Robbins – Zinc, Copper, Selenium, the Thyroid and Stress. Minerals 4 (English) - 4Health med Anna Sparre | Lyssna här

Between minute 10:00 to 15:00, Morley Robbins describes that in the nucleus of a thyroid cell, there's a thyroid receptor (TR) which needs to "hook up" with a retinoid X receptor (RXR) in order to "activate the promoter region of the nucleus" so that the transcription of thyroid hormone can begin to take place... Anna Sparre then mentions that she has some clients who develop orange hands from an inability to convert beta carotene into retinol and that their skin color returns to normal after they start consuming liver. Robbins' point was that vitamin A is a crucial factor in T3 production.

Frankly I don't know anything about the other 320 pages of this thread, but I just came across this information and thought it was worth taking a second to insert here.

 

[mrchibbs]

@Twohandsondeck

Thanks for the info. I've seen similar research as well. My own personal experience/intuition/understanding point towards a very important role of vitamin A in energy production, and steroidogenesis. Small amounts of liver (like in tbsp quantities) in a context of high thyroid and cholesterol can lead to incredible production of protective hormones.

 

[Pet Peeve]

Have any of you tried improving glucuronidation to get rid of RA, sulforaphane, diindolymethane, calcium-d-glucarate? I took some some hours ago and the difference is like night and day.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Nice thanks


Peating, with its high amount of vitamin A I am guessing and the liver I was eating, made my liver function go from drinking at times was okay, no big deal...to now drinking something that isn't whiskey makes the next day feel terrible

It has to be a different variable in Peat-like Dieting i feel.Hi-A doesnt cause this at all for me,Maybe it is the milk or Carb-dependency?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Have any of you tried improving glucuronidation to get rid of RA, sulforaphane, diindolymethane, calcium-d-glucarate? I took some some hours ago and the difference is like night and day.

Placebo effect?This will take along time.VA isnt a Poison tho.

 

[Pet Peeve]

Placebo effect?This will take along time.VA isnt a Poison tho.

I think the reason it takes a long time is because it gets stuck at certain bottlenecks. You need FAD to convert retinol to retinoic acid. Then you need glucuronidation to transport the retinoic acid out of your body. Unless you supplement these bottlenecks can get overwhelmed. I was one month in eating rice, beef and beans, supplementing b2 and molybdenum and feeling worse than ever before, because I was converting a lot of VA to RA and not getting rid of it. Once I took the sulforaphane, dim, cdg combo it only took a few hours to feel good again. I think you should try this if you have a flare up.

 

[tim333]

The largest trials for beta carotene showing increased mortality from cancer and heart disease in the beta carotene groups, multiple cadaver studies showing high rates of Hypervitaminosis A in western populations, people like myself following low va diets and CURING long standing health problems and normalizing cholesterol and liver panels... What other evidence do you need to BELIEVE?

Hypervitaminosis A was a major problem way before glyphosate appeared on the scene...

I've known a lot of germans and i've never once seen them eat pate or liver?

Liver is one of the most disgusting foods one can ever eat! Kidneys are a close second. Why choose to eat offal when you aren't a starving medieval peasant? If liver is such a natural food for humans why do young humans hate it when young lions and tigers love it?

A low va diet does not have to be beans, rice and beef lol, don't follow that unbalanced diet. It just has to avoid liver, high fat dairy, excess eggs and high carotenoid foods... The low va food I make is the most delicious and nourishing food i've ever eaten. Cheers!

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

The largest trials for beta carotene showing increased mortality from cancer and heart disease in the beta carotene groups, multiple cadaver studies showing high rates of Hypervitaminosis A in western populations, people like myself following low va diets and CURING long standing health problems and normalizing cholesterol and liver panels... What other evidence do you need to BELIEVE?

Hypervitaminosis A was a major problem way before glyphosate appeared on the scene...

I've known a lot of germans and i've never once seen them eat pate or liver?

Liver is one of the most disgusting foods one can ever eat! Kidneys are a close second. Why choose to eat offal when you aren't a starving medieval peasant? If liver is such a natural food for humans why do young humans hate it when young lions and tigers love it?

A low va diet does not have to be beans, rice and beef lol, don't follow that unbalanced diet. It just has to avoid liver, high fat dairy, excess eggs and high carotenoid foods... The low va food I make is the most delicious and nourishing food i've ever eaten. Cheers!

Germans eat liverwurst though. Plus dairy and eggs, so... I find liver pate and nicely cooked liver tasty. To each it's own I guess.