Good Supplement/Pharm For Muscle Gain That Does NOT Cause:

[ShotTrue]

Doubt many people would ever get over 1000 without steroids that's basically double what I have now lol, 800 would be more reasonable, how would you raise test?

1200 or less is still within natural range I've seen people have it before using steroids

 

[Jing]

You force feed yourself. I've done it, plus its a treatment for anorexia. Whether or not you're hungry isn't always what matters

Eh I haven't had the opportunity to raise test myself, but vitamin D vitamin K works, so does ashwgandha.

I've force fed myself many times in my life as I have had this problem all my life, force fed for up to 5-6 months most of the time, all it did was make me not want to wake up in the morning because I would always feel sick and full all day and night, have you ever been so full that the look and smell of food makes you gag? That's what I would have every second of the day every bit of food I would swallow I would gag and have to stop myself from throwing up, this would be constant throughout the whole day after 5-6 months still no better than the first day of force feeding. Force feeding does not work for everyone.

With mk677 I still have to force myself to eat and I still don't really enjoy food but it helps me eat more without feeling so sick and full.

 

[ShotTrue]

Well there's something much more seriously wrong if you can't eat anything

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

What about digestive enzymes? Some have great results with that.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Maybe adding some glycine powder/ gelatine to heal any damage in the small intestine so that you absorb food more easily.

 

[Jing]

What about digestive enzymes? Some have great results with that.

Tried many digestive enzymes never had any results, glycine and collagen make me feel depressed and cause low libido and brain fog and fatigue, tried some bitter herbs recently with no results.

 

[bluefish]

Well when it comes to building muscle, protein (at least 1.6g/kg/BW) and carbs (depending on your weight and training program, but 300g is a good start) are most important. If you do the slow carb diet, maybe have some higher GI foods before and after your workout for good energy and optimal glycogen stores. Starches or veggies are not required to build muscle but some people feel better with it in the diet.
Saturated fats and cholesterol are important. Whole foods, such as full cream milk or whole eggs are better for hypertrophy than skim milk or egg whites.

I basically advocate what works for you. If it's chicken, then have chicken. If its red meat, have red meat. Don't force foods that doesn't work.

Hope that answers your question. Feel free to ask if you want me to elaborate more.

I wanted to take some time to consider my diet before responding...
the last blood work I had showed elevated SHBG (everything else was awesome thank god), which I think is due to not enough carb/sugar... and based on your post, sounds like more carbs is good, and in the ray peat forum, in general people support more sugar... I have no idea how to hit 300g of carbs per day... sounds like a lot... and for sugar, also, whats a good amount? as I said above , I was doing a slow-carb diet... up until recently. Id like to keep a low body fat if possible. Not sure bet way to incorperate more sugar and carbs while keeping low body fat

Im pretty good with getting a minimum calories, and protein, cholesterol, and fat... I think... but the carbs and sugar... Idk how to work with that... in general... im coming from a life long habit of under eating and probably fairly malnurished... so as with improving life long habits... there is a bit of a learning curve and life adjustments,,, that take some time.

Im fairly thin but decent build... Id like to pack on 10 or so pounds of muscle this summer.... keep low body fat.

 

[Hans]

I wanted to take some time to consider my diet before responding...
the last blood work I had showed elevated SHBG (everything else was awesome thank god), which I think is due to not enough carb/sugar... and based on your post, sounds like more carbs is good, and in the ray peat forum, in general people support more sugar... I have no idea how to hit 300g of carbs per day... sounds like a lot... and for sugar, also, whats a good amount? as I said above , I was doing a slow-carb diet... up until recently. Id like to keep a low body fat if possible. Not sure bet way to incorperate more sugar and carbs while keeping low body fat

Im pretty good with getting a minimum calories, and protein, cholesterol, and fat... I think... but the carbs and sugar... Idk how to work with that... in general... im coming from a life long habit of under eating and probably fairly malnurished... so as with improving life long habits... there is a bit of a learning curve and life adjustments,,, that take some time.

Im fairly thin but decent build... Id like to pack on 10 or so pounds of muscle this summer.... keep low body fat.

300g is easy. Eat 50-100g pre-workout and 100-200g post workout.

To pack on muscle you'll have to eat to get there. 10lbs is easy. Staying lean is also easy. It can be achieved with eating carbs at strategic times and doing some form of carb cycling over your mesocycle. Optimizing your hormones and metabolism will definitely help and eating and training right will help to achieve that.

Refined sugar isn't a must. Fruits are better and a cup or two of fruit juice per meal can give you enough fructose.

 

[BigChad]

First off you need a good diet. Enough protein and fats and high carbs. Food should be from whole foods preferably. You'll have to eat a good diet consistently for about a month to adapt and improve and then you can consider supplements. If your diet is on point you can make gains supplements can't give you.

Just because you are getting hair loss from creatine indicates that your metabolism and hormones ain't optimal.

Supplements that can help you adapt to your diet and improve the metabolism is B-vits, especially B1, B2 and B3 and also glycine.

B1 supposedly causes manganese deficiency, b2 is a 5ar inhibitor, b3 clears out thyroid hormones from the body? I remember taking 100mg niacinamide was enough to make me tired the whole rest of the day, and 36.5mg of riboflavin 5 phosphate caused me itchy painful nipples for that day and the next 2 days. I think riboflavin is definitely a 5ar inhibitor, ive tried ginseng, green tea, milk thistle, 300mg soy lecithin and the only thing that gave me nipple sensitivity comparable to that r5p dose was 100mg of saw palmetto

 

[Hans]

B1 supposedly causes manganese deficiency, b2 is a 5ar inhibitor, b3 clears out thyroid hormones from the body? I remember taking 100mg niacinamide was enough to make me tired the whole rest of the day, and 36.5mg of riboflavin 5 phosphate caused me itchy painful nipples for that day and the next 2 days. I think riboflavin is definitely a 5ar inhibitor, ive tried ginseng, green tea, milk thistle, 300mg soy lecithin and the only thing that gave me nipple sensitivity comparable to that r5p dose was 100mg of saw palmetto

About the B1 and manganese. Manganese and Vitamin B1
B1 and manganese work synergistically together. Too much of each deplete the other one. Just make sure you consume enough manganese rich foods if you supplement with B1 or take an additional manganese with the high dose B1. Furthermore, I have not found a study in humans that vit B1 caused manganese deficiency amd vit B1 is very safe even in high doses. But high doses are really not needed unless you want to fix a deficiency or play around with its ATP, CO2 and cognitive boosting properties.

I know of only an in vitro study that shows that B2 s inhibitory on 5-AR, so we need in vivo studies to show at what doses it inhibits 5-AR and if it does that at all. It could be similar to zinc. Huge doses of zinc needs to be taken for a long period of time before it might have an inhibitor effect on 5-AR. Furthermore it aids in the excretion of estrogen in the liver. It's also a cofactor in MAO-A and B, which could lead to a reduction in serotonin and dopamine. Lower dopamine could cause a rise in prolactin which could explain itchy nipples.

Nicotinic acid decreases serum thyroid hormone levels while maintaining a euthyroid state. - PubMed - NCBI
"These results suggest that nicotinic acid decreases serum thyroid hormone concentrations while maintaining a euthyroid state."
Can't find anything on niacinamide. Niacin and niacinamide work differently.

Also, I didn't say big doses should be taken. If your diet is rich in those nutrients there are no need for a supplement.

 

[BigChad]

About the B1 and manganese. Manganese and Vitamin B1
B1 and manganese work synergistically together. Too much of each deplete the other one. Just make sure you consume enough manganese rich foods if you supplement with B1 or take an additional manganese with the high dose B1. Furthermore, I have not found a study in humans that vit B1 caused manganese deficiency amd vit B1 is very safe even in high doses. But high doses are really not needed unless you want to fix a deficiency or play around with its ATP, CO2 and cognitive boosting properties.

I know of only an in vitro study that shows that B2 s inhibitory on 5-AR, so we need in vivo studies to show at what doses it inhibits 5-AR and if it does that at all. It could be similar to zinc. Huge doses of zinc needs to be taken for a long period of time before it might have an inhibitor effect on 5-AR. Furthermore it aids in the excretion of estrogen in the liver. It's also a cofactor in MAO-A and B, which could lead to a reduction in serotonin and dopamine. Lower dopamine could cause a rise in prolactin which could explain itchy nipples.

Nicotinic acid decreases serum thyroid hormone levels while maintaining a euthyroid state. - PubMed - NCBI
"These results suggest that nicotinic acid decreases serum thyroid hormone concentrations while maintaining a euthyroid state."
Can't find anything on niacinamide. Niacin and niacinamide work differently.

Also, I didn't say big doses should be taken. If your diet is rich in those nutrients there are no need for a supplement.

Do you think 10mg of thiamine hcl would be fine without manganese.
I read that manganese is estrogenic, yet its also needed for thyroxine.
I get about 10mg iron a day, almost all from meat. Not sure how much manganese is in costcos coconut water but thats the only potential source for me unless its in meat, milk or drinking water. I might get 1mg manganese a day if its in coconut water.

I mostly wanted to supplement b1 since my dietary sources only add up to like 0.5mg a day, also i read b1 is pro 5ar. I wonder if its pro 5ar due to the manganese depletion effect?

Also the formulator for legions multivitamin thinks molybdenum and manganese dont need to be supplemented at all, so doesnt include them in their multi, which has 30mg b1

 

[milkboi]

Do you think 10mg of thiamine hcl would be fine without manganese.
I read that manganese is estrogenic, yet its also needed for thyroxine.
I get about 10mg iron a day, almost all from meat. Not sure how much manganese is in costcos coconut water but thats the only potential source for me unless its in meat, milk or drinking water. I might get 1mg manganese a day if its in coconut water.

I mostly wanted to supplement b1 since my dietary sources only add up to like 0.5mg a day, also i read b1 is pro 5ar. I wonder if its pro 5ar due to the manganese depletion effect?

Also the formulator for legions multivitamin thinks molybdenum and manganese dont need to be supplemented at all, so doesnt include them in their multi, which has 30mg b1

10mg is a really small dose (compared to most supps), so that should be fine.
+ Why not consume some maple syrup for the manganese?

 

[baccheion]

About the B1 and manganese. Manganese and Vitamin B1
B1 and manganese work synergistically together. Too much of each deplete the other one. Just make sure you consume enough manganese rich foods if you supplement with B1 or take an additional manganese with the high dose B1. Furthermore, I have not found a study in humans that vit B1 caused manganese deficiency amd vit B1 is very safe even in high doses. But high doses are really not needed unless you want to fix a deficiency or play around with its ATP, CO2 and cognitive boosting properties.

I know of only an in vitro study that shows that B2 s inhibitory on 5-AR, so we need in vivo studies to show at what doses it inhibits 5-AR and if it does that at all. It could be similar to zinc. Huge doses of zinc needs to be taken for a long period of time before it might have an inhibitor effect on 5-AR. Furthermore it aids in the excretion of estrogen in the liver. It's also a cofactor in MAO-A and B, which could lead to a reduction in serotonin and dopamine. Lower dopamine could cause a rise in prolactin which could explain itchy nipples.

Nicotinic acid decreases serum thyroid hormone levels while maintaining a euthyroid state. - PubMed - NCBI
"These results suggest that nicotinic acid decreases serum thyroid hormone concentrations while maintaining a euthyroid state."
Can't find anything on niacinamide. Niacin and niacinamide work differently.

Also, I didn't say big doses should be taken. If your diet is rich in those nutrients there are no need for a supplement.

Riboflavin could be weakly addressed if someone took a larger amount (100 mg 3x/day) for a few weeks/months. Before/after labs would show any change in DHT, estradiol, etc.

 

[BigChad]

10mg is a really small dose (compared to most supps), so that should be fine.
+ Why not consume some maple syrup for the manganese?

i have been thinking about that, but manganese also inhibits iron, from diet I am getting 21mg zinc and 10mg iron, plus potentially 1mg manganese a day if coconut water has some (even more if drinking water and meat has some). I'm not sure what would happen if I added in more manganese without more iron

 

[Hans]

Do you think 10mg of thiamine hcl would be fine without manganese.
I read that manganese is estrogenic, yet its also needed for thyroxine.
I get about 10mg iron a day, almost all from meat. Not sure how much manganese is in costcos coconut water but thats the only potential source for me unless its in meat, milk or drinking water. I might get 1mg manganese a day if its in coconut water.

I mostly wanted to supplement b1 since my dietary sources only add up to like 0.5mg a day, also i read b1 is pro 5ar. I wonder if its pro 5ar due to the manganese depletion effect?

Also the formulator for legions multivitamin thinks molybdenum and manganese dont need to be supplemented at all, so doesnt include them in their multi, which has 30mg b1

Please stop stressing about everything especially if you are concerned about balancing nutrients from dietary sources. 10mg B1 is a puny dose and all vitamins and minerals are essential. You need it. Manganese actually stimulates GnRH and promotes steroidogenesis and only in super high doses could be become more estrogenic, or if your body retains a massive amount (pesticides are a major concern) of it and causes toxicity.
Cocoa, pineapple, maple syrup are rich in manganese and healthy sources.

Riboflavin could be weakly addressed if someone took a larger amount (100 mg 3x/day) for a few weeks/months. Before/after labs would show any change in DHT, estradiol, etc.

It would be interesting to see by how much. But I'm sure small amounts such as found in energin should not have an inhibitory effect.

i have been thinking about that, but manganese also inhibits iron, from diet I am getting 21mg zinc and 10mg iron, plus potentially 1mg manganese a day if coconut water has some (even more if drinking water and meat has some). I'm not sure what would happen if I added in more manganese without more iron

The puny amounts of minerals you get from your diet should only have a regulatory effect on each other. You won't get anaemia or a zinc deficiency from 1 or 2 tbsps of maple syrup daily.

 

[baccheion]

Please stop stressing about everything especially if you are concerned about balancing nutrients from dietary sources. 10mg B1 is a puny dose and all vitamins and minerals are essential. You need it. Manganese actually stimulates GnRH and promotes steroidogenesis and only in super high doses could be become more estrogenic, or if your body retains a massive amount (pesticides are a major concern) of it and causes toxicity.
Cocoa, pineapple, maple syrup are rich in manganese and healthy sources.

It would be interesting to see by how much. But I'm sure small amounts such as found in energin should not have an inhibitory effect.

The puny amounts of minerals you get from your diet should only have a regulatory effect on each other. You won't get anaemia or a zinc deficiency from 1 or 2 tbsps of maple syrup daily.

How much is a high dose? What are the recommended amounts for each vitamin/mineral?

A - 5000 IU retinyl palmitate?

B1 - ?
B2 - 10 mg?
B3 - 100 mg?
B5 - ?
B6 - 10 mg?
B7 - ?
B9 - ?
B12 - ?

C - ?
D - ?
E - 200 IU?
K - ?

Magnesium - ?
Calcium - ?
Selenium - ?
Zinc - ?
Copper - ?
Manganese - ?
Chromium - ?
Silicon - ?
Molybdenum - ?
Vanadium - ?
Lithium - ?
Iodine - ?
Boron - 3 mg?

Anything else? Na-R-ALA? CoQ10? Astaxanthin?