HELP! Shrinking The Tongue, Sleep Apnea, And Sublingual Steroids?

[satsumass]

So I have sleep apnea, intolerant to full CPAP use, had surgery (MMA), helped a little bit, but even with significant weight loss my sleep is still bad. Another surgeon said it is definitely your tongue, the muscle is just too big for your mouth (upper/lower arches) and throat! He wants to cut it down to size.

I know the tongue is smooth muscle, smooth muscle (e.g., penis), is not supposed to grow in adulthood in response to any steroids. But endos and bodybuilders will agree that steroid abuse or long term high dose T can definitely cause/significantly worsen apnea through tissue growth. How to square this?

In any event, I've been on TRT, mostly physiological dosage, and a few weeks of oral steroids or higher doses of T over the past 10 years. I have gained 60lbs and lost 60lbs of fat AND a lot of muscle, twice. I have also used preg, DHEA, 11-ket0-DHT, androsterone sublingually.

So here are some questions:
-- Is it possible that sublingual application of steroids could directly increase the size of the tongue, just like systemic use of testosterone?
-- Does anyone have any experience with tongue size growth and sleep disordered breathing?
-- If I wanted to take the risk away, should I stop using sublingual steroids, and which ones? Might some actually help?
-- Could defibrin or another idealabs supplement help when used sublingually? Would the tongue be at risk of fibrosis which could increase the size?

Thank you! Hopefully others find this interesting and helpful thread as well.

 

[Runenight201]

A prolonged fast would be the quickest way outside of surgery to shrink your bodies tissues, organs, muscles, and fat.

 

[Surfari]

Have you tried any of the 'tongue stabilizing devices' ? If you google that term or 'antisnoring tongue' in Amazon you can check these out. They are odd to use - you stick your tongue in them and it suctions it out of your mouth, enough that your tongue does not fall backwards as you sleep. They're not expensive and might be worth trying.

Big picture - IIRC - RP connects large tongues to being hypothyroid.

My sister had surgery to reduce tongue size and it didn't help with her sleep apnea.

Good luck, not sleeping really sucks.

 

[xeliex]

An enlarged tongue is recognized by some as a symptom of low thyroid.

A tongue too big for the mouth could also mean a small mouth cavity regardless of tongue size. Look for Dr. Mew on youtube.

 

[Texon]

So I have sleep apnea, intolerant to full CPAP use, had surgery (MMA), helped a little bit, but even with significant weight loss my sleep is still bad. Another surgeon said it is definitely your tongue, the muscle is just too big for your mouth (upper/lower arches) and throat! He wants to cut it down to size.

I know the tongue is smooth muscle, smooth muscle (e.g., penis), is not supposed to grow in adulthood in response to any steroids. But endos and bodybuilders will agree that steroid abuse or long term high dose T can definitely cause/significantly worsen apnea through tissue growth. How to square this?

In any event, I've been on TRT, mostly physiological dosage, and a few weeks of oral steroids or higher doses of T over the past 10 years. I have gained 60lbs and lost 60lbs of fat AND a lot of muscle, twice. I have also used preg, DHEA, 11-ket0-DHT, androsterone sublingually.

So here are some questions:
-- Is it possible that sublingual application of steroids could directly increase the size of the tongue, just like systemic use of testosterone?
-- Does anyone have any experience with tongue size growth and sleep disordered breathing?
-- If I wanted to take the risk away, should I stop using sublingual steroids, and which ones? Might some actually help?
-- Could defibrin or another idealabs supplement help when used sublingually? Would the tongue be at risk of fibrosis which could increase the size?

Thank you! Hopefully others find this interesting and helpful thread as well.

Has trt ever been implicated? My doc said if someone's neck is over 17", they are guaranteed to have apnea. Also, thiamine deficiency is very possible.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjANegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0SA48sgivjA21_9Gp1SSj_
Also, google Dr. Lonsdale and you will find abundant material on the modern epidemic of thiamine deficiency. Here is another link..
Vitamins In Absentia: When The "Death Angel" Comes To Visit
I have never done cpap but did have 2 doctors recently recommend a sleep study. I had the distinct feeling that my body was forgetting to inhale if you can believe it. From my limited understanding, Allithiamine (Ecological Formulas) will be your best chance to raise levels in your brain and nervous system apart from injectable hcl form. It is what I am taking after trying benfotiamine with mixed results. Benfotiamine will raise blood levels dramatically but apparently does not penetrate the brain and nervous system well or at all.

 

[satsumass]

Has trt ever been implicated? My doc said if someone's neck is over 17", they are guaranteed to have apnea. Also, thiamine deficiency is very possible.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjANegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0SA48sgivjA21_9Gp1SSj_
Also, google Dr. Lonsdale and you will find abundant material on the modern epidemic of thiamine deficiency. Here is another link..
Vitamins In Absentia: When The "Death Angel" Comes To Visit
I have never done cpap but did have 2 doctors recently recommend a sleep study. I had the distinct feeling that my body was forgetting to inhale if you can believe it. From my limited understanding, Allithiamine (Ecological Formulas) will be your best chance to raise levels in your brain and nervous system apart from injectable hcl form. It is what I am taking after trying benfotiamine with mixed results. Benfotiamine will raise blood levels dramatically but apparently does not penetrate the brain and nervous system well or at all.

Tell me more about what you were trying benfotiamine vs allithiamine for and doses of each?
I've used benfotiamine for years, off and on, at the direction of a progressive endocrinologist who has passed away but do so sort of without expectation and for general health benefits (anti-AGE).

I do have allithiamine but haven't given it a formal longer term trial, what would be the reason you cited it for sleep breathing disorders? Kinda makes ppl stink thats the problem!!! Also isn't it very stimulating if you take it at night if i recall???

 

[mangoes]

Swollen tongue, nutrient deficiencies? I think b vitamins can be implicated? B12, folate, iron levels checked?

 

[InChristAlone]

One side effect of pituitary tumors that release growth hormone is an enlarged tongue.

 

[Lilac]

In my late teens, I had calluses on the sides of my tongue from clashing with my teeth. Many dentists, orthodontists, and maxillofacial specialists later, the calluses were still there. Big tongue, small mouth, one dentist said. It's a habit, another said.

The only time the calluses disappeared in this period was when I had a palate expander appliance in my mouth--a metal bar across the teeth. My tongue had to tuck back and up--a very unnatural position.

Now fast-forward to my late 50s. After implementing Dr. Ellie's mouth-biome regimen and supplementing thyroid with TyroMax, I one day noticed that the calluses were gone.

I am sure I was somewhat hypothyroid from childhood. And doesn't the Weston-Price thinking posit that poor prenatal conditions affect the mouth and teeth? My mother was somewhat hypothyroid, too. And she formula fed us. Both I and my sister have narrow palates.

FYI, one dentist told me that the tongue-narrowing surgery could be temporary. The tongue, as a muscle, can grow back to a larger size.

I wish you luck.

 

[olive]

Double post, please delete.

 

[olive]

Steroids don’t cause local growth. Only IGF-1 derivatives (PEG-MGF for example) would and they need to be injected intramuscularly.

Prolonged water fast and proper mouth posture (ala Mew) like suggested above are your best bets.

 

[Texon]

Tell me more about what you were trying benfotiamine vs allithiamine for and doses of each?
I've used benfotiamine for years, off and on, at the direction of a progressive endocrinologist who has passed away but do so sort of without expectation and for general health benefits (anti-AGE).

I do have allithiamine but haven't given it a formal longer term trial, what would be the reason you cited it for sleep breathing disorders? Kinda makes ppl stink thats the problem!!! Also isn't it very stimulating if you take it at night if i recall???

I've never had odor problems with allithiamine. I have used benfotiamine in rather large doses for anti-AGE effects, but allithiamine seems to keep my pee free of bubbles just as well (kidney benefits I think). Allithiamine will stimulate, but the effect seems to diminish with titration to higher doses over time. Before I knew more about this I had to go to the doctor recently because I felt like my body was literally forgetting to inhale. About 5 years ago a blood test showed my b1 level in the red zone, but neither I nor the doctor thought anything about it. Since taking allithiamine autonomic breathing seems much better.

Here's a decent video about the sleep connection.


I switched to allithiamine after seeing this article and others by Dr. Lonsdale He links deficiency states to about 250 diseases:
About TTFD: A Thiamine Derivative- Hormones Matter

Here is a study using cats where apnea was induced and treated (pdf download):
thiamine apnea cats - Google Search

I should say too that symptoms of B12 deficiency can overlap with this.

 

[satsumass]

I've never had odor problems with allithiamine. I have used benfotiamine in rather large doses for anti-AGE effects, but allithiamine seems to keep my pee free of bubbles just as well (kidney benefits I think). Allithiamine will stimulate, but the effect seems to diminish with titration to higher doses over time. Before I knew more about this I had to go to the doctor recently because I felt like my body was literally forgetting to inhale. About 5 years ago a blood test showed my b1 level in the red zone, but neither I nor the doctor thought anything about it. Since taking allithiamine autonomic breathing seems much better.

Here's a decent video about the sleep connection.


I switched to allithiamine after seeing this article and others by Dr. Lonsdale He links deficiency states to about 250 diseases:
About TTFD: A Thiamine Derivative- Hormones Matter

Here is a study using cats where apnea was induced and treated (pdf download):
thiamine apnea cats - Google Search

I should say too that symptoms of B12 deficiency can overlap with this.

what dose/dosing protocol do you use and any other benefits you notice besides breathing?

 

[DrJ]

In one of Ray's interviews he says enlarged tongue is usually due to mucopolysaccharides and it can be reduced with thyroid .

Edit: found it for you. Transcript here:
Ray Peat 1996 interview

 

[Texon]

what dose/dosing protocol do you use and any other benefits you notice besides breathing?

Reduced heavy feeling in the back of my head and neck, better balance/motivation, effects are subtle though and I am also taking hcl form with meals to aid digestion a bit. I also take digestive enzymes as I don't have a gallbladder any more.

 

[satsumass]

Reduced heavy feeling in the back of my head and neck, better balance/motivation, effects are subtle though and I am also taking hcl form with meals to aid digestion a bit. I also take digestive enzymes as I don't have a gallbladder any more.

but what dose of the allithiaime do you take and how often?

 

[Texon]

but what dose of the allithiaime do you take and how often?

I am up to 150-200 mgs total divided to take 2-3 times per day. Google "Dr. Lonsdale thiamine" or go to hormonesmatter.com and you will find a huge amount of info about the versatility and importance of thiamine.

 

[satsumass]

oh wow that is a lot, you take the 50mg pills i assume. did you notice any difference in mood or any other positive effects besides breathing?

 

[Texon]

oh wow that is a lot, you take the 50mg pills i assume. did you notice any difference in mood or any other positive effects besides breathing?

Yes some positive mood effects. As I say there seems to be some overlap with B12 which I also supplement due to some fairly severe b12 absorption issues.

 

[DannyIrons™]

So I have sleep apnea, intolerant to full CPAP use, had surgery (MMA), helped a little bit, but even with significant weight loss my sleep is still bad. Another surgeon said it is definitely your tongue, the muscle is just too big for your mouth (upper/lower arches) and throat! He wants to cut it down to size.

I know the tongue is smooth muscle, smooth muscle (e.g., penis), is not supposed to grow in adulthood in response to any steroids. But endos and bodybuilders will agree that steroid abuse or long term high dose T can definitely cause/significantly worsen apnea through tissue growth. How to square this?

In any event, I've been on TRT, mostly physiological dosage, and a few weeks of oral steroids or higher doses of T over the past 10 years. I have gained 60lbs and lost 60lbs of fat AND a lot of muscle, twice. I have also used preg, DHEA, 11-ket0-DHT, androsterone sublingually.

So here are some questions:
-- Is it possible that sublingual application of steroids could directly increase the size of the tongue, just like systemic use of testosterone?
-- Does anyone have any experience with tongue size growth and sleep disordered breathing?
-- If I wanted to take the risk away, should I stop using sublingual steroids, and which ones? Might some actually help?
-- Could defibrin or another idealabs supplement help when used sublingually? Would the tongue be at risk of fibrosis which could increase the size?

Thank you! Hopefully others find this interesting and helpful thread as well.

Did you solve this problem?