A Depressing Step Backwards

[misery guts]

Hi,
I'm a 30 year old male and have had depression since around the age of 14/15. Although it's somewhat intractable from extreme social anxiety (I've been shy since early childhood), there is a distinct emotional 'lowness', and inability to feel pleasure that has remained absolute. I also experience brain fog (poor memory, inability to focus, getting tongue tied), and exist in a fairly permanent state of anger and irritability

Anyway, after reading an article linking depression to inflammation, I discovered the usual paleo blogs and then eventually this article - Curing Arthritis and Depression with Diet and Antibiotics - Perfect Health Diet | Perfect Health Diet
Which was a bit of a revelation to me, because around the exact same time I developed depression, I also developed arthritis in my knees.

After discovering Peat/Haidut, I then decided the infection was likely causing me to become hypothyroid. So I took a blood test:

http://i.imgur.com/NVdxYmP.jpg


Which has quickly ruined my week. I'm aware that the thyroid tests are taken with a pinch of salt around here, but I remember @haidut saying in one of the Roddy discussions that the TSH reading is pretty useful.. Namely that my TSH should be high if an infection is preventing cells from using the T3, yet it isn't. As for my crp... My understanding was that this should be high if you're in a state of inflammation, yet mine's low.. I don't understand

I know this post is a mess, but anyway. I just want to quickly mention my symptoms and supplements I've tried:

Symptoms:
- depression/anxiety/anhedonia/brain fog
- arthritis in knees
- muscular pain from around the middle of the back up to the neck (some days painful enough I can't move the neck) - this has only started in the last 2 years or so
- extremely easy to bruise
- spider veins
- what looks like early onset rosacea (little red spots/veins appearing on face)
- very fine hair
- dry skin on face/dandruff (I also used to get flaky, dry skin on elbows and keratosis pilaris on the back of my arms, and some mild acne, but these are resolved with 100IU retinol)
- muscle twitches, especially eye lids
- heart palpitations, however these have ceased since supplement/Peatish diet
- extremely sensitive teeth (worse since Peating)
- sudden noises cause me to jump extremely easily (I only mention this because I remember Haidut mentioning it somewhere)


Supplements I've tried:
- b complex
-magnesium
-selenium
-d3
-estroban
-retinil
-taurine
-zinc
-previously methylene blue


Also... So I actually got these results a few days ago and immediately searched the forum for info on low b12/high folate. Not much info unfortunately, and so ended up on a Chronic fatigue syndrome forum (which incidentally, has a lot of the same symptoms listed as hypothyroid), trying to work out what methylation means :s
Anyway, it resulted in me spending the rest of my overdraft on 500mcg sublingual b12 and methyfolate. Took some today and all I can feel is the familiar dread of yet another cure that has no affect on me whilst I slowly rot away and die


So erm.. Does anyone have any idea from a Peat perspective on why someone might have high folate, with low b12? Or indeed low crp despite being in a state of chronic inflammation?

Thanks for any help!

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Idk that much about folate, but I would expect a vegan to have low b12 and high folate... what's your diet like?

 

[misery guts]

Sorry, completely forgot to put that in.

For about the past 3/4 months I've been trying to eat Peatish, with general success during mon-fri, and general failure sat-sun (supermarket bread or takeaway pizza).

My diet at the minute is about half a litre of milk in the morning, then sip oj throughout the day (1-2 liters), some supermarket jerky at lunch, then more milk in the evening. I do one lifting session a week and will then eat meat/eggs/veg in the evening of that day and the following day. I'll snack on either cheese or ice cream in the evening if hungry.

Before that I was generally trying to go keto (basically mince with low GI veg), with similar failings at the weekend. Never been a vegan

Cheers

 

[CarbAppreciator]

In my experience, supplements are hit or miss in terms of absorption... if you do have a deficiency in b vits/vit a/etc, beef liver is your best bet. Same for zinc and oysters... nothing compares to its bio-availability.
Otherwise, I think its rly important to keep intestinal transit time up when eating a high protein/calcium diet like the peat diet, so if you think endotoxin is a problem, experiment with different amounts/types of fiber. Just because it is considered optimal to have no fiber, doesn't mean that's going to work for everyone.

 

[Brian]

If you've been doing keto for awhile you might have some nitric oxide/lactic acid/serotonin blocking carb metabolism.

What are your sun exposure habits like? I would recommend working up to daily sun bathing for 20 minutes close to noon if possible. It should at least help decrease nitric oxide, increase ATP, decrease prolactin/ increase dopamine, lower serotonin and decrease systemic inflammation.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Idk that much about folate, but I would expect a vegan to have low b12 and high folate... what's your diet like?

Which shows you it's not just a vegan thing after he said that he eats meat/dairy/eggs. Anyone can be low in b12 even while eating dairy/meat. It's made by bacteria, not plants or animals. And we must have intrinsic factor to get it from food.

 

[mangoes]

No expert whatsoever here but I got that same test and the report said my ferritin was high when it was like 130. Yours is in the 200s. They also said it's unlikely to be caused by a chronic infection because of my low CRP but I think that is my problem still.

Im deficient in b12 so I know a little about it. Japan's lowest reference range for b12 is like 500. So you could be low on b12 (but I dunno if they use a different unit of measurement or whatever.) I'm not sure about high folate because I'm always deficient in it, but I do know SIBO can cause high levels because the bacteria synthesise it.

 

[squanch]

- muscle twitches, especially eye lids

I used to get those when drinking anything with caffeine (especially yerba mate). L-theanine got rid of them completely

 

[PakPik]

hello @misery guts
I'm sorry about your ordeal; I've had pretty bad issues with my brain/nervous system and in reality with most other body systems. I can sympathize with you. It had a HUGE infectious component, so much so that when I got to bring the infections down, my hormones, metabolism and brain and cognitive function improved in a way no supplement ever would have made it possible -though supplements have been a big part on getting my body stronger and on its way to healing-.. A very low PUFA and very nutritious diet has also been a huge thing for me. It has been a continous healing process, every week and sometimes even on a daily basis I get improvements. So I think there's hope. :)
I didn't read your message thoroughly because i'm dealing with the zika virus right now (EDIT: it turned out to more likely be dengue, as per bloodwork and symptoms clues), so I need lots of rest. But I wanted to quickly comment on a few things regarding your tests: CRP and TSH are NOT panacea tests. In fact CRP usually only gets high in the setting of an acute insult like an acute infection or trauma or sometimes in overweight people; if the infection or insult settles itself as a chronic thing CRP will typically go down and you get a nice within range number. That may be because chronic immune activation leads to immunosuppression with downregulated production of certain inflammatory cytokines, and CRP production is initiated by certain proinflammatory cytokines. Check out this site where they talk about the low CRP in chronic disease issue Inhibiting Interleukin-6 (IL-6): The Key To Health, Successful Aging and Vitality - SelfhackedSince chronic sustained stress tends to downregulate metabolism/thyroid function, TSH will can end up placing itself at a "normal" number in such situation. The point in my life when I was the sickest I had a TSH of 1.0. But my body temperature was super low and my bones were cold like ice. Pulse in the 50s. I sure was dying, just extremely ill after decades of sickness. So, I wouldn't hold onto those results or get depressed about them :)

Edit to add: be warned that many people have been seriously hurt by methylation protocols/supplements.

 

[marteagal]

I used to get those when drinking anything with caffeine (especially yerba mate). L-theanine got rid of them completely

@squanch, very interesting!! Two questions if you don't mind:
1.) How tight was the temporal relationship between your caffeine consumption and the onset of muscle twitching in your case? For instance, did you notice effects already a few minutes after taking caffeine, or did you rather experience muscle twitching at noon after drinking coffee early in the morning with several hours delay?
2.) Do you happen to know the causal link between caffeine and muscle twitching? I read about excess adrenaline casuing muscle twitches. Or maybe it has to do with inhibition of acetylcholinesterase or something?
Thanks in advance!

 

[squanch]

@squanch, very interesting!! Two questions if you don't mind:
1.) How tight was the temporal relationship between your caffeine consumption and the onset of muscle twitching in your case? For instance, did you notice effects already a few minutes after taking caffeine, or did you rather experience muscle twitching at noon after drinking coffee early in the morning with several hours delay?
2.) Do you happen to know the causal link between caffeine and muscle twitching? I read about excess adrenaline casuing muscle twitches. Or maybe it has to do with inhibition of acetylcholinesterase or something?
Thanks in advance!

1) It usually started 1-2 hours after drinking yerba mate in the morning and it would last pretty much all day. I would also get this weird chest pain at the same time.
2) For me personally, the twitching was the strongest with chocolate and yerba mate. I would need to ingest a larger of coffee or pure caffeine powder for it to happen. Because of that I think that other xanthines, like theobromine or theophylline (which are present in higher concentrations in yerba mate/ chocolate compared to coffee) cause the twitching to a greater extend than caffeine does. I'm not sure about the exact mechanism though unfortunately

 

[ecstatichamster]

i think ritanserin is worth trying. It seems to me to be extremely helpful in such situations. Anger, irritability, depression. I think it could really help you and in only a few days you could find out.

 

[EIRE24]

You say your acne is resolved by vit a? How much do you take and in what form?

 

[marteagal]

Hi, thanks for your answers. Good that you mentioned a connection to chocolate! I use cocoa powder almost daily and thought it might be a contributing factor in my case.

 

[tara]

My diet at the minute is about half a litre of milk in the morning, then sip oj throughout the day (1-2 liters), some supermarket jerky at lunch, then more milk in the evening. I do one lifting session a week and will then eat meat/eggs/veg in the evening of that day and the following day. I'll snack on either cheese or ice cream in the evening if hungry.

What to estimate average/typical daily calories?
Are you salting to taste and cravings? Not peeing too clear and frequently with all the milk and OJ?
Have you tried a little liver from time to time (eg 100-150g/week)?
Does milk agree with you? I think it''s great food for people who can digest and use it well, but some of us have trouble with it for a while.

 

[Richiebogie]

My diet at the minute is about half a litre of milk in the morning, then sip oj throughout the day (1-2 liters), some supermarket jerky at lunch, then more milk in the evening.

You could try increasing your variety of foods to beat the depression and other issues.

Papaya, mango, pasture raised lamb shanks, venison, beef, dark chocolate, oysters, squid, prawns, berries, bananas, coconut, lettuce, spinach, eggs, potatoes, carrot, rice...

Some of these are more Peat than others but they could contain trace elements you have been missing.

 

[DrJ]

I think you would get a lot of benefit by supplementing glycine, or at least getting a lot of bone broth in your diet. I have had lots of gut troubles, and although peating would generally fix the problem most of the time, I would still have periodic bouts of gut trouble. I noticed that when I would have lots of bone broth based foods, my digestion would work much better and I would have much less gut problems. Bone broth contains much glycine (like gelatin). This is anecdotal, but I also notice my level of 'social outgoingness' improves dramatically when I have no gut problems, meaning that I don't notice that I have a gut at all, so it might be the same for you.

I did try gelatin, but I think that it sometimes causes irritation depending on the formulation. However, I have had nothing but success with glycine, and I find it makes my gut quite resilient to dietary variations, which is nice in a practical way since sometimes it is difficult to always keep the peat. Also, knowing that it helps me be mostly immune to dietary sins gives me a psychological confidence that is probably also beneficial. For example, I recently had no choice but to eat a lot of corn products because I could not turn down the host's home-cooked ethnic speciality. Corn usually absolutely wrecks me, but this time I thought 'I should be alright, I've got glycine' and sure enough, I was pretty much fine.

I'd start out on the lower end: 2g glycine in the morning, and then 2g in the evening, and then work your way up to 5g morning and 5g evening. This is where I am at and it works great. Too much will make your bowels move too fast. I just mix mine in with orange juice, so it's super easy. Glycine is also pretty inexpensive when bought as bulk powder.

Just some other things you might find helpful from my experience:
-I can tolerate fiber better with glycine, but in general it has been better for me to avoid it, so less than 5g/day. You said you eat vegetables, which are usually high-ish in fiber. I don't, and it's awesome :)
-I found broth/gelatin/glycine have all helped my knee issues. My knees no longer pop like they chronically did, and I have no more knee pain when I do squats. I'm in my mid-30s.
-You might be careful with the taurine. I found too much to be problematic.
-Glycine is very anti-inflammatory so might help some of your other issues.
-Pregnenolone might be beneficial for your depression. Try 25-50mg/day for maybe 5 days per week. Give it a rest when you are back to feeling fine and take occasionally when you are not.

I also suspect that, based on your description, you might be low on protein. You should probably shoot for 1.5-2g/kg body weight of the preferred proteins: dairy, shellfish, broth/gelatin/glycine. I initially focused too much on sugar for energy, but found that much higher (good) protein with adequate sugar made a big difference in my energy level.

 

[misery guts]

Just want to thank everyone for their responses. I've been kicked off track a bit but will respond asap! Thanks!