Gonadal Suppression

[allblues]

Alright, got some numbers back. These were taken about 1,5 months ago;

FSH 7,3 E/L (?) (ref range <10 for men under 50)
LH 7,0 E/L (ref range <9 for men under 50)
Testosterone 18 nmol/L = 519 ng/dl
SHBG 32 nmol/L
T/SHBG ratio 0,57
Estradiol <20 pmol/L

Since this reading I've tried supplementing with Gonadin, which has helped with testicle size. Some days it doesn't work though.
Libido is very low, and gynecomastia isn't getting much better. Probably need to lose weight.

I couldn't find any reference for what good FSH/LH numbers are, like we have for prolactin, would there be any cause for concern looking at those numbers?

 

[Dhair]

Alright, got some numbers back. These were taken about 1,5 months ago;

FSH 7,3 E/L (?) (ref range <10 for men under 50)
LH 7,0 E/L (ref range <9 for men under 50)
Testosterone 18 nmol/L = 519 ng/dl
SHBG 32 nmol/L
T/SHBG ratio 0,57
Estradiol <20 pmol/L

Since this reading I've tried supplementing with Gonadin, which has helped with testicle size. Some days it doesn't work though.
Libido is very low, and gynecomastia isn't getting much better. Probably need to lose weight.

I couldn't find any reference for what good FSH/LH numbers are, like we have for prolactin, would there be any cause for concern looking at those numbers?

Your T is pretty okay, but not ideal. Mine is in the 200s and I feel horrible. With a few more months of tweaking your diet and lifestyle you could probably have supraphysiological T levels. It may not even take that long.
Unless your testicles are abnormally small then I seriously doubt you're dealing with suppression. Everyone I know who has gotten testicular suppression from using DHT was using a minimum of 50mg.
Either way, it seems like you have mostly recovered. How is your cognitive function and mood?

 

[Wagner83]

Isn't his estradiol level crushed? What is the reference range?

 

[Wagner83]

I've been there........purchased and used no less than 10 Idealabs sups with DMSO before dropping them all, and starting on a focused liver protocol of Caffeine + K2 + Thiamine + Niacinamide + Aspirin (it even took a while to get the balance right with these). I currently only use the non-DMSO vitamins from Haidut just to be safe.

"To hell with the cheese.......I wanted out of the trap!!!"

How have you been doing since starting this liver supplementation and dropping the dmso products from haidut ?

 

[allblues]

@Dhair The size thing is odd, it comes and goes. When using the steroids it was obvious, steroid dose -> testicular shrinkage and dull pains. Things are better now but quite often my testicles will shrink for no apparent reason. Blood flow/vascular health might be a thing because walking always makes my downstairs contract, as does coffee.

At the time I took those tests, and for the last few months really I've felt fatigued, unmotivated. Not very sharp mentally, though I think it's mainly because of the fatigue. And the low libido to go with that, made me think of hypogonadism, but I guess other things might be contributing. Are you dealing with similar symptoms?

@Wagner83 Yeah the estradiol seems low. It doesn't give me an exact number, just says <20 pmol/L. Top of the reference
range for males is <150 pmol/L according to the sheet.

 

[theLaw]

How have you been doing since starting this liver supplementation and dropping the dmso products from haidut ?

It's going well. I think adding too many products with DMSO at once ultimately caused my problems compounded by my poor liver function.

I've added in a small amount of Pansterone + Tyromix daily with no negative reactions so far, and am now up to 600-800mg Caffeine daily for the liver.

 

[Wagner83]

@Dhair The size thing is odd, it comes and goes. When using the steroids it was obvious, steroid dose -> testicular shrinkage and dull pains. Things are better now but quite often my testicles will shrink for no apparent reason. Blood flow/vascular health might be a thing because walking always makes my downstairs contract, as does coffee.

At the time I took those tests, and for the last few months really I've felt fatigued, unmotivated. Not very sharp mentally, though I think it's mainly because of the fatigue. And the low libido to go with that, made me think of hypogonadism, but I guess other things might be contributing. Are you dealing with similar symptoms?

@Wagner83 Yeah the estradiol seems low. It doesn't give me an exact number, just says <20 pmol/L. Top of the reference
range for males is <150 pmol/L according to the sheet.

It's weird it sounds as if the dht suppressed estrogens (at least estradiol) long term, given your potential really low estrogens levels I'm not sure there's any problem of T, for sure you are not suppressed. I'm far from an expert though so hopefully you can find more reliable information than that!

It's going well. I think adding too many products with DMSO at once ultimately caused my problems compounded by my poor liver function.

I've added in a small amount of Pansterone + Tyromix daily with no negative reactions so far, and am now up to 600-800mg Caffeine daily for the liver.

Ok, what improvement have you noticed? If you add the potential side effects of dmso mentioned in the dmso safety thread,the various mails from Ray and farmerMark's information there are many ways which could make dmso tricky to use, especially if you use various products daily.

 

[Dhair]

@Dhair The size thing is odd, it comes and goes. When using the steroids it was obvious, steroid dose -> testicular shrinkage and dull pains. Things are better now but quite often my testicles will shrink for no apparent reason. Blood flow/vascular health might be a thing because walking always makes my downstairs contract, as does coffee.

At the time I took those tests, and for the last few months really I've felt fatigued, unmotivated. Not very sharp mentally, though I think it's mainly because of the fatigue. And the low libido to go with that, made me think of hypogonadism, but I guess other things might be contributing. Are you dealing with similar symptoms?

@Wagner83 Yeah the estradiol seems low. It doesn't give me an exact number, just says <20 pmol/L. Top of the reference
range for males is <150 pmol/L according to the sheet.

Well like I said, your levels still aren't ideal, and a young male should have total T in the 800s, so I can definitely see how it would be causing you problems.
My T levels crashed after I was given flouroqinolone antibiotics. It took me months to figure out what was wrong. I have severe brain fog, depersonalization, and a lack of desire to do anything. I cant really interact with others and I cannot think clearly so it makes it extremely difficult to get out of bed in the morning. It's definitely the worst I've ever felt, but I am confident that I'm making some progress. Tyromix on the scrotum seems to help me more than anything I've tried. I also use Kuinone, Pansterone, and a couple drops of 11-keto-DHT or androsterone. I use aspirin too. I alternate if I get side effects. Now I'm looking to get an NDT supplement that won't push me too far.
I think it's important to remember that the basics work for a reason. Ray Peat recommends thyroid and aspirin for low T.

 

[theLaw]

It's weird it sounds as if the dht suppressed estrogens (at least estradiol) long term, given your potential really low estrogens levels I'm not sure there's any problem of T, for sure you are not suppressed. I'm far from an expert though so hopefully you can find more reliable information than that!



Ok, what improvement have you noticed? If you add the potential side effects of dmso mentioned in the dmso safety thread,the various mails from Ray and farmerMark's information there are many ways which could make dmso tricky to use, especially if you use various products daily.

Improved libido, improved Glycogen storage (blood sugar more stable for longer periods of time), and better sleep.

On Haidut's end, he has been lowering the amount of DMSO in several products just to be safe.

Also, keep in mind that with a sup like Tyromix, some can feel a difference on 1 drop per day, while Haidut himself tested 4 drops 3 times per day (posted on the Tyromix thread), so that's quite a range of DMSO exposure.

 

[Wagner83]

Improved libido, improved Glycogen storage (blood sugar more stable for longer periods of time), and better sleep.

On Haidut's end, he has been lowering the amount of DMSO in several products just to be safe.

Also, keep in mind that with a sup like Tyromix, some can feel a difference on 1 drop per day, while Haidut himself tested 4 drops 3 times per day (posted on the Tyromix thread), so that's quite a range of DMSO exposure.

Thanks.

Oh yes I agree on what you said, dose, frequency of use and the individual himself all play a part. I'm not saying no one should use it.

@Dhair I don't know if fluoroqinolone would damage you partly thanks to fluor but if so then: Taurine Reverses Thyroid Inhibition Due To Fluoride