Fish antibiotics

[Darleen]

Hello was wondering if anyone here has ever taken fish antibiotics in place of “human” antibiotics? I remember when I was younger and my parents had a pet store, we had an older gentleman that came in now and again to get fish moxi for when he was sick. For just about $5 he said it worked great lol. But my reasoning is not to save money, it’s Trouble obtaining an antibiotic and I have gut issues where I’d like to try some antibiotics. Not looking for advice on whether to take them or not, just if you have personal experience with taking them? Thanks so much

 

[mostlylurking]

I was prescribed three different antibiotics for a bladder infection over last summer. I wound up with a damaged gut and inability to absorb nutrients along with a thiamine deficiency/blockage. Bottom line, I got gut issues from the antibiotics that I have been working on for months to recover from. That's my personal experience with taking them.

 

[Regina]

Hello was wondering if anyone here has ever taken fish antibiotics in place of “human” antibiotics? I remember when I was younger and my parents had a pet store, we had an older gentleman that came in now and again to get fish moxi for when he was sick. For just about $5 he said it worked great lol. But my reasoning is not to save money, it’s Trouble obtaining an antibiotic and I have gut issues where I’d like to try some antibiotics. Not looking for advice on whether to take them or not, just if you have personal experience with taking them? Thanks so much

I think they are great to have on hand. Fish mino and doxy has been fantastic for my dog. I give him one or the other 1x a week. I take them much less frequently. But when feeling very crappy and/or run down with flu-like symptoms, I wlll take an ampicillan or a mino/doxy or tetra. After a 20 min nap, I feel fine.
I have not taken any for an extended period of time though.

 

[TheBeard]

Hello was wondering if anyone here has ever taken fish antibiotics in place of “human” antibiotics? I remember when I was younger and my parents had a pet store, we had an older gentleman that came in now and again to get fish moxi for when he was sick. For just about $5 he said it worked great lol. But my reasoning is not to save money, it’s Trouble obtaining an antibiotic and I have gut issues where I’d like to try some antibiotics. Not looking for advice on whether to take them or not, just if you have personal experience with taking them? Thanks so much

I'm all for antibiotics, but only if you have explored ALL other avenues.
For me probiotics make me worse, but for some they are a god send.

Have you tried home made Kefir and Sauerkraut?

If not, that should be your first resort.
Antibiotics will be for when you know your gut mocrobiota is messed up in a non recoverable way, like it was for me and antibiotics were the only viable solution.

 

[Darleen]

I'm all for antibiotics, but only if you have explored ALL other avenues.
For me probiotics make me worse, but for some they are a god send.

Have you tried home made Kefir and Sauerkraut?

If not, that should be your first resort.
Antibiotics will be for when you know your gut mocrobiota is messed up in a non recoverable way, like it was for me and antibiotics were the only viable solution.

Thank you, So I don’t do well on probiotics and have a history of getting very ill off of homemade ferments. I think I have Sibo, but have no been tested. Actually that’s when all the digestive issues began I had severe histamine /anaphylactic symptoms after consuming fermented pickles. Went to emergency once. Anyways I tried ampicillin last month and my itchy rash that I have on my chest and legs almost completely went away. I was considering another round of ampicillin. Or a good dose of vitamin k as I heard the quinones can be effective.? I’m not keen on antibiotics, lived on them as a child. But I was particularly wondering if these companies that sell the fish antibiotics such as ampicillin, amoxi etc were safe (no additives)

 

[Darleen]

I think they are great to have on hand. Fish mino and doxy has been fantastic for my dog. I give him one or the other 1x a week. I take them much less frequently. But when feeling very crappy and/or run down with flu-like symptoms, I wlll take an ampicillan or a mino/doxy or tetra. After a 20 min nap, I feel fine.
I have not taken any for an extended period of time though.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I give them to my dog as well. Mostly just flagyl as she gets Irritable bowel occasionally.

 

[Darleen]

I was prescribed three different antibiotics for a bladder infection over last summer. I wound up with a damaged gut and inability to absorb nutrients along with a thiamine deficiency/blockage. Bottom line, I got gut issues from the antibiotics that I have been working on for months to recover from. That's my personal experience with taking them.

Thank you for sharing! I am not keen on antibiotics but I feel at a loss. I’ve been having horrible gut issues for over 3 years now. Healed my erosive gastritis. I’m definitely hypothyroid and am still healing from all the crazy diets of keto and fasting. So stressful! So I’m sure it will take time I just feel stuck. I get nauseous often and have skin rash, gut cramping and constipation. Glad you shared your experience through! It’s appreciated

 

[Perry Staltic]

So I don’t do well on probiotics and have a history of getting very ill off of homemade ferments

I know you don't like probiotics, but in case you haven't tried spore-based priobiotics it might be something to research and consider. I give the first one a lot of credit for calming my gut down.

9 Promising Health Benefits of Bacillus coagulans - SelfHacked

B. coagulans is being researched for cholesterol, IBS, arthritis, and muscle recovery. Read on to learn about this promising probiotic.

selfhacked.com

5+ Promising Potential Benefits of the Probiotic B. subtilis - SelfHacked

Probiotics containing B. subtilis have produced promising results in constipation and H. pylori infections. What else could they help with?

selfhacked.com

 

[cjm]

Have you tried home made Kefir and Sauerkraut?

Agreed, try this first. I did a go with normal crap milk from the grocery store and it definitely loosened things up as far as chest/abdominal pressure. I'm trying to again now with raw milk and seems promising.

However,

I am not keen on antibiotics but I feel at a loss.

Well, good news, Darleen! The tetracyclines aren't true antibiotics, they are quinones.

Haidut posted these here:

Endotoxin - Kmud, November 19 2010
"...RP: There is a series that actually starts with vitamin K. It's a quinone structure that has been studied from about 1910 on as an anti-cancer, antiviral, energy-promoting, respiration-improving, anti-inflammatory, anti-fibrotic substance. For example, vitamin K is now used to strengthen bones, prevent osteoporosis and prevent calcification of arteries. That's a basic, vital function that does have tremendous range of functions. The emodin in cascara is a three-ring substance and the tetracycline is a four-ring substance, but they are all quinones that are intensified by adding the extra ring. So from vitamin K all the way up to tetracycline, it's a similar biological effect. It sounds too good to be true, to be able to stimulate respiration, be anti-inflammatory, germicidal, anti-cancer and so on."

viewtopic.php?t=5419
"...RP: If you put vitamin K and emodin and lapacho in a row and tetracycline (the antibiotic which is an anti-inflammatory), they're essentially the same structure with a different number of rings. But it's like each one is an analog of the other and each one has properties overlapping with those of the other — anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer, anti-stress."

And here:

"...As per Peat's writings and readily verifiable online, vitamin K, emodin, lapachon, and the tetracycline antibiotics class are really the same substance, with varying potency. I think he said that they are in increasing potency in the order I listed them. So, depending on the potency ratio you should be able to achieve what tetracycline does by taking say a higher dose vitamin K. However, the studies with vitamin K show potent anti-cancer effects both for prevention and treatment in human doses 100mg-150mg daily, which is suspiciously close to the therapeutic doses of doxycycline (100mg+ daily). That makes me think that for cancer prevention and treatment vitamin K may not be that much "weaker" than the tetracyclines."

So, if Peat is right then vitamin K is essentially a type of tetracycline as are the other quinones like lapachon and emodin. Maybe I should have said that vitamin K action (as a type of tetracycline) is probably like the other tetracycline antibiotics on cancer. We certainly have evidence for vitamin K preventing and maybe even treating some cancers. I did not mean to say that vitamin K should act like a general purpose antibiotics on micro-organisms, and I don't see who else interpreted it that way. Who are the people you say blindly believed me? And where did you see me recommending or discussing vitamin K to be used as an antibiotic, including on bacterial overgrowth?

 

[cjm]

But I was particularly wondering if these companies that sell the fish antibiotics such as ampicillin, amoxi etc were safe (no additives)

I'm on my third bottle of doxycycline from Chewy.com and no adverse effects yet. There's 12 pills per bottle and I'm taking 2 (100mg each) in the morning. It's been like 3 weeks. From perusing the forum and studies, this is an antibiotic dose. People are talking about taking 40mg for the anti-inflammatory/respiratory effect.

I don't see any additives on my bottle but you may want to check.

Speaking of ampicillin, I could never get the stuff to work consistently, plus I was taking too much and/or in such bad shape that I would reek of "medicine" that would rub off on clothes, bags, etc. Maybe low doses are the way to go, but it's not the wonder substance the tetracyclines (doxycycline, etc.) are.

If you didn't have luck with ampicillin, maybe try doxy? Relatively cheap, no rx required.

 

[Perry Staltic]

If you didn't have luck with ampicillin, maybe try doxy? Relatively cheap, no rx required.

Doxy on chewy is Rx (script required)

 

[cjm]

 

[Perry Staltic]

View attachment 21356

Oh OK, I was looking at dog doxy.

 

[Archon]

I'm on my third bottle of doxycycline from Chewy.com and no adverse effects yet. There's 12 pills per bottle and I'm taking 2 (100mg each) in the morning. It's been like 3 weeks. From perusing the forum and studies, this is an antibiotic dose. People are talking about taking 40mg for the anti-inflammatory/respiratory effect.

I don't see any additives on my bottle but you may want to check.

Speaking of ampicillin, I could never get the stuff to work consistently, plus I was taking too much and/or in such bad shape that I would reek of "medicine" that would rub off on clothes, bags, etc. Maybe low doses are the way to go, but it's not the wonder substance the tetracyclines (doxycycline, etc.) are.

If you didn't have luck with ampicillin, maybe try doxy? Relatively cheap, no rx required.

since you use an antibiotic dose may you say what is it for? Also i've heard that ray lately toned down a bit on the "long term low dose" tetra recommendation, anyone with insight? I was just about to go on doxy thinking i'll use it for at least 5 months

 

[cjm]

since you use an antibiotic dose may you say what is it for? Also i've heard that ray lately toned down a bit on the "long term low dose" tetra recommendation, anyone with insight? I was just about to go on doxy thinking i'll use it for at least 5 months

Interesting. Hadn't heard that but I usually hear those things second-hand.

It's an antibiotic dose, yes, but I assume the respiratory effects are still happening at a higher intensity -- I was trying to maximize those without getting "die-off" symptoms or whatever happens when you nuke the gut, which I've done several times. I kind of just settled on 200mg and paid attention to progress. I'm trying to stretch and revive muscles that have seemingly gone offline. But also I have terrible breath, "death breath" my girlfriend calls it. So I have an eye on that.

 

[cjm]

Oh OK, I was looking at dog doxy.

Lol, the rules make no sense.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I don't see any additives on my bottle but you may want to check.

A comment in that Chewy fish doxy page says product didn't dissolve in 300 ml distilled H2O, I bet the non-dissolved stuff is excipients.

 

[cjm]

A comment in that fish Chewy fish doxy page says product didn't dissolve in 300 ml distilled H2O, I bet the non-dissolved stuff is excipients.

That was my suspicion. The pill itself probably weighs about a half gram, and there's only 100mg of doxy in it.

 

[CreakyJoints]

I'm all for antibiotics, but only if you have explored ALL other avenues.
For me probiotics make me worse, but for some they are a god send.

Have you tried home made Kefir and Sauerkraut?

If not, that should be your first resort.
Antibiotics will be for when you know your gut mocrobiota is messed up in a non recoverable way, like it was for me and antibiotics were the only viable solution.

I found this quite interesting: could you explain why you have recommended those two specifically? My understanding was that Ray Peat was not a fan of too many fermented foods being taken simultaneously, and that as a general rule, one should try to reduce the number of different bacterial cultures in their diet or stick to a few familiar ones - is two at once not a bit of a gamble, potentially exacerbating certain issues one might have in the gut biome?

 

[cjm]

I found this quite interesting: could you explain why you have recommended those two specifically? My understanding was that Ray Peat was not a fan of too many fermented foods being taken simultaneously, and that as a general rule, one should try to reduce the number of different bacterial cultures in their diet or stick to a few familiar ones - is two at once not a bit of a gamble, potentially exacerbating certain issues one might have in the gut biome?

I think you could categorize them both as lactic-acid-producing species, which are the least harmful. There are flora out there that produce really nasty substances, those that metabolize amino acids. Peat always stresses transit time because the longer the bacteria have to eat your own undigested food, the more they will poison you. It's less of an issue with lactic acid species.

Unconfirmed: the lactic acid species compete with the amino acid species. The enemy of your enemy is your friend. Someone check that, please.

Just to get this out of the way: gut sterility is a cool concept for its implications but totally unfeasible. The small intestine should be mostly sterile but good luck cleaning out the colon.

Kefir is a combination of bacteria and yeast and sort of in its own category. I don't claim to understand how exactly it works, only that it has a long track record of promoting health and it's worked for me and others @Jib

Have you been following Amazoniac at all since you've been here? He's got a great summary of John Harvey Kellog's book Autointoxication -- worth a read.

It's not entirely Peatish, though dude loves milk and fruit, but there's this:

"Carrots may be advantageously used in a regimen that has for its purpose the changing of intestinal flora."