Experience With Vitamin A And Acne

[j.]

Sad story is however, that many(maybe most?) people today eat tons of pufas every day, dont even know what retinol is and have a Vitamin A intake of maybe below 1000 IU per day (not to mention they probably never ate liver in their entire life). And still they have a non oily, perfect skin. I would love to understand this, but i just cant.

I've seen those people. And I've also seen them at some point worsen spectacularly in looks and health. Those who are still ok probably have a spectacular emotional life or something like that.

 

[mcconte75]

There is a brand in "Britain" that uses virgin olive oil in their Bio-A product 5000iu liquid form.

Its demonized on the "to much is toxic" grounds. The only clear cases of toxity are from Roche's messed up molecule in Roaccutane. By changing the natural form, in order to be able to profit from a patentable compound, this toxity was vastly multiplied.
http://test.biocare.co.uk/default.aspx? ... ductAnchor

 

[Dan W]

For anyone curious, I've tried switching from Nutrisorb to an equivalent dose of fish-liver vitamin A for the last 3 days. My skin has quickly become less dry, but my acne has quickly gotten worse. That suggests to me that water-miscibile forms are more absorbable, which might explain the toxicity problems.

Even if that's the case, Nutrisorb is expensive for high doses, so I'd like to avoid it. It seems like the alternatives are:

• Halibut liver oil: Peat seems to like this form, but I haven't been able to find a brand that isn't carried in high-omega-6 oils.
• General fish-liver oils: some of these are available in low-omega-6 carrier oils, but I suspect they may still end up higher in PUFA than halibut.
• Retinyl oils like Carlson and the brand mcconte75 mentioned. Some people claim that retinyl is less desirable, but it lets you avoid PUFAs.

Any opinions on which of those would be the best option? Or maybe there's a cheaper form of Nutrisorb?

 

[chris]

Those who are still ok probably have a spectacular emotional life or something like that.

j. - Could you explain what you meant by this?

 

[j.]

Those who are still ok probably have a spectacular emotional life or something like that.

j. - Could you explain what you meant by this?

I conjecture that people who eat bad for a really long time and still look good and are in good health might have very low stress, maybe because they do the things they enjoy, and are very accomplished and happy.

 

[key]

(10) 10,000IU vitamin A pills with the soybean oil probably only contains a few tenths of pufa. Taken throughout the day with food probably is best way to minimize problems from the soybean oil.

 

[Dan W]

Thanks Key, it was surprisingly hard to find fat content for the products I looked at. I'll stop worrying about the PUFA and just get one of the halibut liver oils that doesn't "fortify" with additional vitamins.

 

[Rudex]

Thanks Key, it was surprisingly hard to find fat content for the products I looked at. I'll stop worrying about the PUFA and just get one of the halibut liver oils that doesn't "fortify" with additional vitamins.

Hello,
Do you check Carlson solubilized?.
Polysorbate 80, gelatin, glycerin, water.
Natural color. Soy-free. Milk-free. Yeast-free. Wheat-free. Salt-free. Preservative-free. Sugar-free. Gluten-free.

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vitam ... /9363?l=es

I sometimes use Country life, since it is free oil pufa. But cold liver oil will have small quantity of omegha3 and soy from cod.
Ingredients:Gelatin, glycerin, purified water (capsule shell), medium chain triglycerides. Contains fish (cod).

http://www.iherb.com/country-life-glute ... 11689?l=en

 

[4peatssake]

Hello,
Do you check Carlson solubilized?.
Polysorbate 80, gelatin, glycerin, water.
Natural color. Soy-free. Milk-free. Yeast-free. Wheat-free. Salt-free. Preservative-free. Sugar-free. Gluten-free.

http://www.iherb.com/Carlson-Labs-Vitam ... /9363?l=es

I sometimes use Country life, since it is free oil pufa. But cold liver oil will have small quantity of omegha3 and soy from cod.
Ingredients:Gelatin, glycerin, purified water (capsule shell), medium chain triglycerides. Contains fish (cod).

http://www.iherb.com/country-life-glute ... 11689?l=en

to the forum Rudex!

 

[Dan W]

Yes, welcome Rudex. Thank you for those products, they look decent. I may write Peat and ask how important halibut liver is.

 

[charlie]

Rudex,

 

[Edward]

Has someone here experience with vitamin A and acne, that means the amount of vitamin A intake without risking overdoses. I noticed improvements by supplementing vitamin A, the problem is that after a while I have to increase the dose, because my acne (back and breast) reappears. I am now at 40 000 IU per day what seems to be high. Has somebody tried even higher doses? Otherwise in the forum once a study was posted in which they treated acne with 500 000 IU. Somebody has experience with this?

If you are eating liver and your acne still reoccurs it is because you are not getting enough zinc. If you take a large dose of Vitamin A and acne temporary goes away it is because of the thyroid suppressing aspect of the large dose. If your zinc intake is insufficient you cannot metabolize Vitamin A efficiently. If zinc is sufficient your requirement for Vitamin A will decrease. Vitamin A metabolism is dependent on zinc status.

 

[Dan W]

Edward, what are your thoughts for those of us who see improvements in acne without signs of thyroid suppression (measured by temps/pulse) when taking large doses of vitamin A? Wouldn't that suggest that our acne is prevented by something other than thyroid suppression? Or is that not a valid test?

Working under the assumption that there's something valuable about liver oil from halibut in particular, I've finished up my page summarizing all of the products I could find. Kiran's NOW Foods suggestion seems like the best option unless anyone knows of any quality differences in the oils.

 

[Edward]

Edward, what are your thoughts for those of us who see improvements in acne without signs of thyroid suppression (measured by temps/pulse) when taking large doses of vitamin A? Wouldn't that suggest that our acne is prevented by something other than thyroid suppression? Or is that not a valid test?

The best analogy I can give you is when Ray mentioned about sometimes drinking 50 cups of coffee a day until he discovered thyroid, or, when rats are given the polyunsaturates to correct a B6 deficiency, or, when a person exhibits hypothyroidism but their temperature and pulse is normal.

Vitman A is a fat-soluble vitamin it collects in the body and is recycled efficiently in a healthy individual and even when it is not used efficiently (due to a deficiency of other vitamins and minerals) it tends to persist for a long period of time, much like T4 tends to hang around and then when carbohydrate is eaten there is a temporary period of hyperthyroidism. A lot of people insist they need to take more Vitamin A when in fact they are exhibiting the dermatological symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity, keeping in mind that the symptoms are usually less pronounced because acute toxicity requires extremely large amounts. Because the symptoms are less pronounced they usually go unnoticed and ironically supplement users will use the symptoms as a cue that they need more Vitamin A.

Body temperature and pulse are useful tools in determining thyroid function. However, a good lot of the people applying Dr. Peat's research are doing so coming from a low-carbohydrate diet or some other extreme diet, or were exhibiting sub-clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism, etc. In that context temperature and pulse can be somewhat misleading, for example, in the case of a someone transitioning from a carbohydrate restricted diet, their glycogen is so depleted that as soon as carbohydrates enter the body they are used up, even when seemingly large amounts are consumed. The individual will notice that stress comes down but perhaps they feel a little colder which causes a panic, and then they begin the spiral down the "optimizing the thyroid black hole". They start taking niacin, aspirin, thyroid, etc., and many of the other useful substances that are helpful in some circumstances but can be harmful in others. The consumption of carbohydrates during this period often is revealing an overall low metabolic rate hence the low body temperature and pulse. Much like some people who start taking thyroid only to feel worse, so they increase the dose, feel somewhat better, and then feel worse, and increase the dose.

There are two types of hypothyroidism, pathological and physiological, pathological hypothyroidism requires thyroid supplementation to regain health, there is no getting around that. Physiological hypothyroidism does not, that is not to say T3 can't be helpful for those people in certain situations, but long term thyroid supplementation will not be required for good health. In those circumstances what makes body temperature and pulse misleading to a greater extent is that often the person will ingest carbohydrates, feel o.k. for a while, and then suddenly feel extremely warm, not realizing that the warmth is actually a stress response. I described this very basically on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1494&start=10

One can go in and out of this honeymoon period for a long time is one is not eating enough. Feeling warm, feeling cold, up and down. The up and down usually is a sign your doing something right, and means you just need to give it time and eat enough of the appropriate foods.

Saying that pulse and temperature is normal with large doses of Vitmain A is a legitimate consideration. However, it is a rather pharmacological mentality as it is symptom treatment, much like drinking 50 cups of coffee, feeding rats the polyunsaturates, etc. If you have to micro manage what you eat, something is wrong. And again, that is not to say that micro managing is not justified in the beginning, but that is to say if your constantly struggling to control health taking more and more of substance is not going to get you very far, as I said, if you are constantly having to take large doses of Vitamin A, then it is likely you need more Zinc and possibility more of the B vitamins.

Outside of that what I've observed in most people, is that it is simply a matter of eating more carbohydrate, nutrient density is important however nutrients are useless if the body can't use them, much like a car with a fresh oil change and fresh fluids, that's good, but you won't get anywhere without a tank of gas.

 

[tobieagle]

Edward,
what would be your advise for people, who cant get rid of their acne by eating lets say 200g beef liver a week, but with adding additional vitamin a?
Ray said he needed about 100.000 IU when his metabolic rate was very high. So why dont you think some of us need arround 30.000 IU a day?
When your explanation is true, then we should fix the problem with only ~5.000 IU a day, when we get enough zinc and other crucial nutrients.

 

[cliff]

I have found zinc and b vitamins do lower the need for vitamin A, I still need a good bit if it's really sunny maybe 60k IU. Even if you have these factors inline it's still possible to induce acne with foods that don't digest properly in my experience.

 

[Edward]

Here is the link to a Google Scholar search for "'Vitamin A', Zinc, Acne": http://goo.gl/e7piy

Most of the supplemental Zinc dosages throughout different studies were fairly low compared to what one might get in a single oyster, yet there is improvement in acne. I think there was a few where Zinc alone out performed Vitamin A and Zinc combined.

There are few studies that mention RBP, retinol-binding-protein, which is dependent on zinc but most of the study authors seem unaware of RBP. That really is the key.

Zinc levels correspond nicely with RBP and it probably is a more accurate test of Zinc status since ferritin results can often have dualistic meanings.

Cliff brings up an important point about food not being properly digested. Endotoxin alone can cause acne. Typically you can tell the difference between endotoxin induced acne and acne caused by a deficiency of a nutrient by applying topical virgin coconut oil. Acne that responds to virgin coconut oil (or sulfur compounds) is largely of bacterial origin whereas acne that doesn't respond is a literal malfunction in skin metabolism. Sometimes it can be a combination of the two as well.

I do think that living in a sunny climate does require more Vitamin A—but in my opinion—not much more than you would get if you were eating eating 2-4 ounces of liver daily. However, what is also important to consider is that people living in sunny climates traditionally ate a lot critters of that were rich in Zinc—daily.

I see that people mention Ray using 100,000 units per day. On several occasions however he has mentioned that people with hypothyroid symptoms that 1 or 2 drops (assuming he is talking about NutriSorb A) is more than enough assuming that you are eating liver once every 10 days or so.

Finally some anecdotal accounts:

One woman I advised had severe cystic acne, she felt that if she only consumed enough liver that there would be improvement, and there was minor improvement but nothing miraculous. First I told her to continue eating her liver which she was eating 4 ounces 3 or 4 times a week but to stop washing her face with product and only wash with water. Within about 2 weeks there was noticeable improvement. Then I told her to reduce her liver intake to 4 ounces once a week and to eat either 1-2 oyster a day or a stack of them in one day once a week. I also told her to reduce her red meat to 4 ounces one or two times a week and replace those meals with more milk products, starch, and fruit. After about 2 weeks new acne stopped appearing and from there out her face began to heal. It’s been several years and with each passing year her scaring becomes less and less visible. She lives on the coast in a sunny climate and is outside all the time.

Another woman I advised was in her 50’s she was having trouble losing about 10 pounds and her skin was fairly clear but she had persistent white and black heads (blackheads on the nose, white heads in the chin area). She was eating about 1800 kcals a day. I told her to include oysters and shrimp in her diet and to drink more milk products, and in particular eat more starch in the form of white potato. She didn't eat liver as frequently but she did eat about 4 ounces periodically. I also told her to eat about 1000 kcals more than she was eating. In two weeks she lost 10 pounds eating more than she had ever eaten in her life. In 4 weeks the white and blackheads were gone and her pale skin turned to a healthy tan color despite working in an office setting and not getting a lot of outdoor time. She eats more than her husband who is obese. For whatever reason potato seems to be effective at eliminating blackheads, I’m not exactly sure of the mechanism. There is some evidence that Vitamin B6 plays an indirect role.

 

[Wilfrid]

More than often, Ray seems to adapt his advices to people.
However, but I may be wrong, he ,now, rarely advocates the use of supplemental vitamin A by mouth....
He seems to favor a lot the transdermal route....
He uses himself around 50 000 UI on skin....
People are often asking him what kind of vitamin A (and brand...) he's using but also forget to ask him how he takes the vitamin.

http://www.litalee.com/documents/Skin%20Problems.doc

Keeping that in mind, it would be very interesting to know how many people here get the advice from Ray to take synthetic vitamin A by mouth?

 

[jyb]

Cliff brings up an important point about food not being properly digested. Endotoxin alone can cause acne. Typically you can tell the difference between endotoxin induced acne and acne caused by a deficiency of a nutrient by applying topical virgin coconut oil. Acne that responds to virgin coconut oil (or sulfur compounds) is largely of bacterial origin whereas acne that doesn't respond is a literal malfunction in skin metabolism. Sometimes it can be a combination of the two as well.

1) Would you expect endotoxin based acne to be more likely to cause the cystic acne, and nutrient deficiency or bad habits (washing face with soap) to cause smaller benign pimples?

2) What do you think of a topical niacinamide? There's a study suggesting topical niacinamide may be more helpful than internally. I dissolve it in water and rubbed the water of my face, but I'm never sure how much gets absorbed if at all. I get a few benign pimples the next day, I think just due to the rubbing the face. I would expect applying any oil incl. coconut oil to be even worse, but I never tried.

 

[Dan W]

Interesting ideas all around. The B-vitamin/zinc issue intrigues me since I have vertically-ridged fingernails, which some people claim indicates a deficiency of those nutrients. Anyone have an opinion on how much of them might be necessary? I'm well above the RDAs on both, eating oysters, liver, etc. almost daily.