Experience With Vitamin A And Acne

[Edward]

Cliff brings up an important point about food not being properly digested. Endotoxin alone can cause acne. Typically you can tell the difference between endotoxin induced acne and acne caused by a deficiency of a nutrient by applying topical virgin coconut oil. Acne that responds to virgin coconut oil (or sulfur compounds) is largely of bacterial origin whereas acne that doesn't respond is a literal malfunction in skin metabolism. Sometimes it can be a combination of the two as well.

1) Would you expect endotoxin based acne to be more likely to cause the cystic acne, and nutrient deficiency or bad habits (washing face with soap) to cause smaller benign pimples?

2) What do you think of a topical niacinamide? There's a study suggesting topical niacinamide may be more helpful than internally. I dissolve it in water and rubbed the water of my face, but I'm never sure how much gets absorbed if at all. I get a few benign pimples the next day, I think just due to the rubbing the face. I would expect applying any oil incl. coconut oil to be even worse, but I never tried.

I would say that if you have ever been prescribed antibiotics for acne, which is something common in the case of cystic acne, that if there is an improvement then it is likely it is endotoxin related. Smaller pimples, white heads, black heads, typically seem to be predominately nutrition related and irritating skin care products and soaps can be problematic. Yesterday I was browsing the e-mail compilation thread of e-mail exchanges with Peat and saw in one exchange that skin care products and soaps can disrupt the endocrine system persistently this seems accurate as when I've advised people to stop using product it usually takes a few days for them to notice improvement.

I've never used topical niacin. So I can't comment on it. I have recommended to people with acne to use virgin coconut oil in the evenings before bed. I myself take a coconut oil bath where I fill the tub up and drop a cube or two in the water. As you move around it coats you and it usually stays on for a few days as long as you don't use soap. Island cultures considered topical coconut oil important for the protective effects from being in the sun and for overall skin health. I've never seen a mostly saturated fat oil cause breakouts. I have seen things like olive oil and other popular skin oils that are higher in the polyunsaturates cause breakouts though. The only brand I have experience with is Tropical Traditions. And for skin related things virgin seems to be best. I have talked with some people who started eating more coconut products like coconut milk and coconut cream and virgin coconut oil and have noted improvement in overall skin quality.

But topical things like coconut oil I view as secondary things, primarily it's important to balance vitamin A and zinc and the B vitamins, and remain patient before attempting more what I like to call "shotgun blast approaches" things like aspirin, niacinamide, etc. Again not because they can't be helpful but more so is the appropriate question being asked. Why am I taking this approach?

I would say that one should also not underestimate the power of raw calories. Skin is a secondary organ, the brain is a primary organ and if it is not supplied sufficiently then skin will never begin to heal. Organs that your body values will heal first. I've seen Cliff mention somewhere that people who have problems often just are not eating enough sugar. It wasn't on this forum but somewhere on the Internet. I couldn't agree more.

There was a period of time where my skin was dry and I was drinking plenty of milk, eating plenty of liver, and zinc seemed sufficient. One day I decided to drink lemonade over the day so I sipped on that for several hours and the next day there was a dramatic improvement in skin quality. So I repeated that several days while somewhat reducing my milk intake, and my skin continued to improve. Despite eating less daily nutrients.

If you are stressed the idea of sipping on lemonade or another fruit juice throughout the day works for a couple reasons, but primarily it's an effective way at suppressing free fatty acids. If you suppress free fatty acids stress goes down and your body can begin to heal. And once you become glycogen replete the sipping becomes optional.

Over a long period of time I have noticed that if you are eating enough nutrient rich carbohydrate whether it be potato or orange juice that overall nutrients are used more efficiently.

The idea that oily products would make things worst stems mostly from the cultural idea that oil and oily foods is what causes acne and that "clean" skin is resistant to acne.

 

[Edward]

Edward,
what would be your advise for people, who cant get rid of their acne by eating lets say 200g beef liver a week, but with adding additional vitamin a?
Ray said he needed about 100.000 IU when his metabolic rate was very high. So why dont you think some of us need arround 30.000 IU a day?
When your explanation is true, then we should fix the problem with only ~5.000 IU a day, when we get enough zinc and other crucial nutrients.

Yes, I think that when the other co-factors are in balance especially zinc and reducing iron rich foods and getting plenty of calories that 4-8 ounces of liver per week is enough. Consistent levels of salt intake are probably important as well. As a rule I myself usually supplement with one teaspoon of salt per day as a baseline so that I can eliminate it as a variable.

 

[Edward]

One other thing to note is that while generally I feel a raw carrot is a good thing, I have seen it cause visible deterioration in skin quality over 2-3 days. Not completely sure why.

 

[cliff]

I've noticed that with the carrot sometimes it seems to help with acne but other times it seems like it causes it.

I've tried topical niacainamide and it's pretty effective.

 

[jyb]

I've noticed that with the carrot sometimes it seems to help with acne but other times it seems like it causes it.

I've tried topical niacainamide and it's pretty effective.

What's your way of preparing a niacinamide cream?

 

[Edward]

I went ahead and confirmed with Ray what I wrote since I could detect some resistance to the mechanism I was describing, here is what he had to say:

"If a person is already hypothyroid, 8 ounces of liver a week could be enough to make it worse, so it's essential to watch for its effects. There are several ways that zinc and vitamin A interact, supporting protein and steroid synthesis and cell differentiation."

"it" being acne.

So I would experiment with reducing iron intake and increasing zinc intake. It may be that reducing iron enough will be sufficient to bring up zinc levels but if that doesn't you would want to experiment with zinc rich foods.

 

[j.]

Interesting Edward, but if people were to e-mail Ray when a forum member doubts something, he would get a lot of e-mails.

 

[Edward]

Interesting Edward, but if people were to e-mail Ray when a forum member doubts something, he would get a lot of e-mails.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread.

 

[cliff]

I've noticed that with the carrot sometimes it seems to help with acne but other times it seems like it causes it.

I've tried topical niacainamide and it's pretty effective.

What's your way of preparing a niacinamide cream?

I make a 5% solution in water and spray/rub it on my skin

 

[jyb]

I've noticed that with the carrot sometimes it seems to help with acne but other times it seems like it causes it.

I've tried topical niacainamide and it's pretty effective.

What's your way of preparing a niacinamide cream?

I make a 5% solution in water and spray/rub it on my skin

Thanks. So you don't seem to think that a "carrier" oil like coconut oil is necessary for absorption. Since the skin has it own oil, I would have thought that any water solution would not penetrate and stay on top of the skin oil.

If I rub a water-niacinamide solution, when the water dries I'll see that some niacinamide powder remaining on the skin, but maybe a small amount goes in.

 

[jyb]

I would say that if you have ever been prescribed antibiotics for acne, which is something common in the case of cystic acne, that if there is an improvement then it is likely it is endotoxin related. Smaller pimples, white heads, black heads, typically seem to be predominately nutrition related and irritating skin care products and soaps can be problematic. Yesterday I was browsing the e-mail compilation thread of e-mail exchanges with Peat and saw in one exchange that skin care products and soaps can disrupt the endocrine system persistently this seems accurate as when I've advised people to stop using product it usually takes a few days for them to notice improvement.

Actually from experience I think that cystic acne can also be triggered by oily skin products, as if pores got clogged.

I'm not sure what large, visible pores on the skin mean as a diagnostic - what it tells about the skin and what causes it. It's probably not good. In my experience, a year into a RP diet, my acne prone areas on the cheeks are not as oily and acne prone as before as long as I don't apply anything on it topically, but is still slightly inflamed (doctors call it rosacea) and has visible pores.

 

[Edward]

I forgot to mention that vitamin K2 is involved with retinol availability as well.

 

[moriwatzi]

Thanks for your lucid arguments, Edward! You have really managed to bring something new to the table.

I'm curious about your thoughts on the symmetrical distribution of lesions sometimes encountered in acne (and other inflammatory diseases).

 

[Edward]

Thanks for your lucid arguments, Edward! You have really managed to bring something new to the table.

I'm curious about your thoughts on the symmetrical distribution of lesions sometimes encountered in acne (and other inflammatory diseases).

Fascinating question! This is speculation. Bear with me.

Generally, I view symmetrical distribution as a good thing even in the case of inflammation. I tend to think of the body in terms of gradients or fields. If we can imagine the moment after conception—the zygote—from that point forward the cell divides forming what will eventually become a human. When the mother is providing enough energy and nutrients the fetus will develop with symmetrical features and structure. Any interruptions in the gradient of nutrients or any disturbances in the how the nutrients get passed to the fetus will interrupt symmetrical development. Sometimes one leg will be slightly longer than the other or an ear will be slightly higher than the other, etc. I think this happens in the brain as well and I view this variation along with other factors in fetal programming as part of the process that will determine our strengths and weaknesses both physical and nonphysical. I have a brief article I wrote about this which I will post in the “Health Topics Not Directly Related To Ray Peat” section of the forum under the title “Fetal programming”.

When the body cannot produce energy on demand as it refreshes and regenerates there will be bottlenecks in various parts of the body. You sometimes see this in long term ketogenic dieters and aged people, their faces become less symmetrical. Glucose is first spared for the brain. After which excess glucose will go to areas where energy is needed for repair or maintaining structure. It’s a matter of importance, when the body places emphasis one area over another eventually asymmetries develop. There are many occasions in metabolic disorders where one side of the body will atrophy while the other side to a lesser extent. An analogy would be a spinning electrical field, if you introduce a disturbance the spin will become lopsided and overall loose efficiency.

In the case of acne I view symmetrical distribution as a good sign that even though there is inflammation internally energy distribution and structure are still quite sound. When asymmetry develops I believe this is an indicator that energy distribution and production along with structure are bottlenecked either by developing pathologies or inefficient and lopsided cellular respiration.

One good example is of people with naturally straight teeth, over time as they age, or change their diets, to diets that perhaps don’t allow sufficient and readily available energy and nutrients, their teeth start to crowd. If the person is sharp enough to catch this and understand what is going on often times just with changing the diet to a more energy dense diet the teeth will straighten. Some people have noticed that while increasing the amount of sugar in their diet that their gums and teeth get sore. I think in some cases this can be an indicator that the teeth are “rearranging”. This happened in me. I had very straight teeth all my life. After a few months of experimenting with low carbohydrate dieting I began to notice some crowding or asymmetries in my teeth. After resuming my normal diet they straightened back up after a few nights of my jaw feeling like it was going to fall off. Symmetry is beautiful. And typically people who start eating rationally often become more attractive I think that this is because of improved energy production and availability and the consequence is symmetry and the body regenerates.

 

[jyb]

@Edward: Your point on symmetry echoes and extends the comments about that in RP articles.

You seem quite knowledgeable, what's your take on the aspirin debate in http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175&hilit=aspirin&start=190? Some members have concerns about aspirin increasing gut permeability (not the irritation issue that people think about) and therefore it would be safe to keep to a lower dose. RP gave a reply to this, which didn't convince them. It's one of the very few technical points in this community that doesn't seem consensual.

On a more anecdotal note, what is your interpretation of a skin prone to freckles (not moles)? Large spots appearing with ageing is related to iron (and pufa) accumulation, but a skin prone to freckles is given from birth.

 

[Edward]

On a more anecdotal note, what is your interpretation of a skin prone to freckles (not moles)?

True freckles can result from melanocyte stimulating hormone which is secreted by the pituitary gland.

 

[kiran]

On a more anecdotal note, what is your interpretation of a skin prone to freckles (not moles)?

True freckles can result from melanocyte stimulating hormone which is secreted by the pituitary gland.

Inadequate dopamine?

 

[cartman]

Thank you for your thoughts Edward. I already tried zinc but had no success with that, even on a diet with liver twice a week. I would give zinc another try because I am on higher vitamin A now. Does somebody have a good source for oysters? I could only find the canned ones in the grocery. However I don't think that low vitamin A doses would do it in my case. I am now one week on 100,000 IU and it's getting worse, so I should increase the dose, which scares me in this high dosage amounts. If somebody has further suggestions, I would appreciate it.

 

[Edward]

Thank you for your thoughts Edward. I already tried zinc but had no success with that, even on a diet with liver twice a week. I would give zinc another try because I am on higher vitamin A now. Does somebody have a good source for oysters? I could only find the canned ones in the grocery. However I don't think that low vitamin A doses would do it in my case. I am now one week on 100,000 IU and it's getting worse, so I should increase the dose, which scares me in this high dosage amounts. If somebody has further suggestions, I would appreciate it.

Cartman, when you mention trying zinc, what is your source? Canned oysters can be just as good. Certainly better than nothing. Why do you think less vitamin A wouldn't work? I eat approximately 2-4 ounces of liver every 7-9 days. I would be more than happy to try and help you.

 

[moriwatzi]

Wow, Edward, this is some fascinating stuff! Thanks for the detailed reply. I have been wondering about symmetry for quite some time now, and was surprised to find Ray Peat had not covered it in more depth, like he did with transparency in his supreme article "The transparency of life". Your ideas fill this gap to a large extent. Peat suggested that "the endorphins differ in their effects on the two sides of the body, so when I knew two women (within the same year) who had been having mysterious one-sided symptoms for a few months before discovering that they had ovarian cancer (on the same side), I thought that the endorphins were probably involved, maybe to suppress pain on that side."

I too have observed a progession of teeth crowding following a very low carb diet for little over a year. I do think it got better with nutrional suggestions by Ray Peat, but it has not fully reversed yet. Peat talked about this effect while doing DHEA: "Wisdom teeth impacted 20 years prior rotated into position". Unfortunately acne exacerbations by DHEA supplementation (even with doses in the 3 to 5 mg range) prevented me from going down this road. I would give it another try with ample zinc, but I'm having second thoughts since Peat feels rather strongly against zinc, at least in supplemental forms. Two studies he once enclosed via mail:

29. Bioinorg Chem. 1977;7(1):35-56.
Cancer mortality correlation studies--IV: associations with dietary intakes and
blood levels of certain trace elements, notably Se-antagonists.
Schrauzer GN, White DA, Schneider CJ.
The per-capita intakes of zinc, cadmium, copper and of chromium were estimated
from food consumption data in 28 countries and were found to correlate directly
with the age-corrected mortalities from cancers of intestine, prostate, breast,
leukemia, skin and of other organs, suggesting that the anticarcinogenic effect
of selenium is counteracted by other trace elements. Similarly calculated dietary
intakes of manganese are inversely correlated, particularly with the mortalities
from cancer of pancreas, an organ normally known to contain high concentrations
of this element. Arsenic intakes correlate inversely with the male lung cancer
mortalities. A number of other direct and inverse associations were observed
which suggest that trace elements in the human diet may hav both benign and
adverse effects on tumor development. The zinc concentrations in whole blood
collected from healthy donors in the U.S. correlate directly with regional
mortalities from cancers of intestine, breast and of other sites. The origin of
these associations is discussed primarily in terms of the seleium-antagonistic
effect of zinc and of some of the other elements considered. Results of animal
experiments and of other studies are cited which support hypotheses that link
human cancer development to possible deficiencies or excesses in the dietary
trace element intakes.

8. Biol Trace Elem Res. 2008 Summer;123(1-3):27-34. Epub 2008 Feb 9.
Interactive effects of selenium and cadmium on mammary tumor development and
growth in MMTV-infected female mice. A model study on the roles of cadmium and
selenium in human breast cancer.
Schrauzer GN.
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, University of California, San Diego,
CA, USA. [email protected]
Previous studies demonstrated that the age-corrected breast cancer mortalities in
different countries are inversely correlated with the per-capita dietary intakes
of selenium and directly with the estimated intakes of cadmium, zinc, and
chromium, suggesting that the anticarcinogenic properties of selenium are
counteracted by these elements. The tumor-preventative effects of selenium and
the converse effects zinc and chromium have already been confirmed experimentally
in studies with female inbred C3H mice carrying murine mammary tumor virus
(MMTV). Using the same model of human breast cancer, it is now demonstrated that
cadmium abolishes the cancer-protecting effects of selenium. In addition, cadmium
was also found to interact with zinc, copper, and chromium. At 1.4 ppm in the
drinking water, cadmium caused a significant depletion of zinc in vital organs
such as the liver, which is held responsible for a delay of the appearance of the
mammary tumors by 4 months and their slower growth rates relative to the
Cd-unexposed controls. The results of the present study are relevant to human
breast cancer prevention as selenium counteracts the effects of cadmium.