Estrogen seems to make me feel better...

[LizAnn]

Many women start losing estrogen (all at once) quite early, in their 40's. Men don't start losing testosterone until much later, and they don't lose it all at once, but very gradually, and still can have sex when they are 80. Not so with most women unless they get bio-identical hormone replacement. And still, women are told that estrogen causes cancer. Men aren't told that testosterone supplementation causes cancer. Plus men have made viagra, etc., to help them. The help that women have is estradiol and a little testosterone. But this is frowned on, and it's very difficult to find a doctor who understands hormones and who will prescribe bio-identical hormones. Doctors don't know enough about women's hormones, but they all have heard about the large study of Women's Health Initiatives, the results of which showed that women on HRT showed an increase in breast cancer, etc. However, very few doctors seem to know that the WHI study used Premarin (horse urine estrogens) and Progestin (a synthetic compound). Prempro (a combination of estrogen and medroxy-progesterone) was the kind of HRT used in the WHI study. The study did not use bio-identical hormones. Progestin is not the same as bio-identical progesterone; neither is Premarin the same as compounded E2 (Estradiol as it exists in the body). Premarin contains at least 10 forms of estrogen, including estradiol, but it also has equilin, and is approved and regulated by the FDA.

This is so interesting. Thank you for sharing. ?

 

[SonOfEurope]

Lol.

 

[Nemo]

I am new to Ray Peat, and I understand that the more estrogen we have the less healthy we tend to be, but I find that without fail, during the days/week of my cycle when estrogen is highest, I feel happier and more energetic. Can someone help me understand why this is?

Probably because they are high progesterone times, not really high estrogen times.

Ray:

"Many publications describe the follicular phase as a time of high estrogen, and the luteal phase as a time of low estrogen, roughly the opposite of the actual situation."

 

[Nemo]

Many women start losing estrogen (all at once) quite early, in their 40's. Men don't start losing testosterone until much later, and they don't lose it all at once, but very gradually, and still can have sex when they are 80. Not so with most women unless they get bio-identical hormone replacement. And still, women are told that estrogen causes cancer. Men aren't told that testosterone supplementation causes cancer. Plus men have made viagra, etc., to help them. The help that women have is estradiol and a little testosterone. But this is frowned on, and it's very difficult to find a doctor who understands hormones and who will prescribe bio-identical hormones. Doctors don't know enough about women's hormones, but they all have heard about the large study of Women's Health Initiatives, the results of which showed that women on HRT showed an increase in breast cancer, etc. However, very few doctors seem to know that the WHI study used Premarin (horse urine estrogens) and Progestin (a synthetic compound). Prempro (a combination of estrogen and medroxy-progesterone) was the kind of HRT used in the WHI study. The study did not use bio-identical hormones. Progestin is not the same as bio-identical progesterone; neither is Premarin the same as compounded E2 (Estradiol as it exists in the body). Premarin contains at least 10 forms of estrogen, including estradiol, but it also has equilin, and is approved and regulated by the FDA.

Good God, this has to be the most dangerous thread I have ever seen on these forums. It is absolutely clear a bunch of you here (Sugar Babe!) have never read Ray Peat's writings on estrogen. If you act on what you're saying, you're endangering your health and even your life.

Bio-identical estrogen will give you cancer just like Premarin.

Estrogen is a stress hormone. It DOES cause cancer. Testosterone supplementation (DHT is likely better) doesn't cause cancer. Instead, DHT is therapeutic in all kinds of conditions for both men and women, just as progesterone is therapeutic for all kinds of conditions in both men and women.

 

[Nemo]

As women we absolutely need the good estrogen that is produced in preparation for ovulation. As we age less and less of the good estrogen is being produced and we may even stop ovulating which is called menopause. You will know when estrogen gets too low when sex hurts and you have little drive for life. Don't let Peat fool you in to thinking we only need progesterone. Estrogen makes us females.

The problems women get from menopause are due to declining progesterone levels.

You are a menace to the health of anyone who reads and believes you, Sugar Babe.

 

[Nemo]

Thank you so much! I feel like I am low in Thyroid and minerals like magnesium and copper, and I tend to be low energy and depressed, so a lot of what Peat says resonates with me. But this past year, I’ve noticed that I have one really good week a month when I feel happy, clear, and actually have energy—the second week of my cycle when my estrogen is highest. This has made me question whether maybe my estrogen is actually too low. I’m thinking about trying the Dutch test.

Everything Sugar Babe is saying to you is wrong. Please stop and do your homework and actually read Ray's work on this subject before you give yourself breast cancer.

 

[InChristAlone]

The problems women get from menopause are due to declining progesterone levels.

You are a menace to the health of anyone who reads and believes you, Sugar Babe.

A menace? Lol. If a woman doesn't produce enough estrogen she can't ovulate and without ovulation she's not producing the 40 mg of progesterone a day from the corpus luteum. All hormones in our body have a function. I don't demonize any of them anymore. It's the same as saying there's good and bad cholesterol. There's a reason menopausal women aren't getting enough progesterone! They aren't ovulating! Where do you think all that progesterone comes from? Unfortunately I am not convinced yet menopausal women only need to take progesterone. It depends on the person. I have never told anyone to take bio identical estrogen. I am not a proponent of using any exogenous hormones. Been there done that for 5 yrs.

 

[SonOfEurope]

And how ironic... The accumulation of Estrogen and it's gradual damage to female gonads is precisely what starts menopause.... The more times a woman has been pregnant, and in former times of higher progesterone, women used to remain fertile into their late 50's.

Estrogen, aside from its functions that can only be coherent in short bursts, is a toxic hormone of cellular proliferation... It's the hormone of disorganization in the cell, chaos to start reproduction - it's spike is needed to always -begin something- related to cellular proliferation.... Such as a man who has just been seriously injured will have a localized and to lesser extent general increase in aromatization so tissues can start to heal, but that initial "shock " state must quickly balance towards progesterone or it will eventually become cancer.

Just like Cortisol, no one is saying Estrogen does not have a biological function in some amount, time, and the context of its regulator (P4), let's not go to extremes

It's just that in a world where we are already surrounded by it from every angle, and here's the thing, that's precisely the cause of women's issues and cancer, earlier and earlier infertility, and men's too - to paint it as something we're in "deficiency " of is just a joke.

BTW, in a Woman's hormonal cycle it is precisely Progesterone which sensitizes the body to E2, so in a younger woman with higher progesterone than her older self, even a lower amount of Estrogen has the same needed effect for whatever regulated sexual and reproductive characteristics it must perform during its short bursts, progesterone, by nature of opposition, is what sensitized tissues to it's antithesis and allows E2 to perform cohetently while at the same time protecting tissues from its toxicity (accumulation ) that as the years go by, and in a more estrogenic world than ever, eventually turns the tide and wrecks havoc, more estrogen.. Less sensitivity to it, more cellular damage, gonadal exhaustion and the path towards "menopause".

 

[tankasnowgod]

I am new to Ray Peat, and I understand that the more estrogen we have the less healthy we tend to be, but I find that without fail, during the days/week of my cycle when estrogen is highest, I feel happier and more energetic. Can someone help me understand why this is?

Progesterone is also rising at the same time. Are you sure it's not the days where Progesterone is the highest?

Even the Merck Manual shows this-

Menstrual Cycle - Women's Health Issues - Merck Manuals Consumer Version

Menstrual Cycle and Women's Health Issues - Learn about from the Merck Manuals - Medical Consumer Version.

www.merckmanuals.com

Are you taking blood tests to confirm it's the days when estrogen is the highest when you feel the best? Or is the 9 or so days after, when Progesterone is the highest?

I guess you could do a simple test..... get some bio identical estrogen, and some bio identical progesterone. And take both for about a week two weeks after ovulation (separate months), and see how both make you feel.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Many women start losing estrogen (all at once) quite early, in their 40's. Men don't start losing testosterone until much later, and they don't lose it all at once, but very gradually, and still can have sex when they are 80.

Lol, Obviously you haven't seen that Testosterone levels are at all time lows in Men in their 20s and 30s.

"All at once" is a silly thing to say, as I'm sure you could find some Testotsterone in every human (and likely every animal, including insects) on the planet, if you used a PCR test and ran it at 60 cycles. Even corpses who died a few days ago probably have some detectable level of testosterone.

And side note...... men aren't "lucky" because Viagra exists. After all, it can cause gangrene "down there." Yeah, no thanks.

But again, it's completely unnecessarily. You just need to supplement Vitamin K2. I've found that to take care of any issues, even with low levels of testosterone (which I've battled for a while). Still, NPT has become far more common in my 30s and 40s than it ever was in my teens and 20s, and I think it's mostly to do with that vitamin.

 

[mrchibbs]

Very insightful post @SonOfEurope

Indeed, I don't think Ray has ever said that humans "don't need estrogen". Clearly it plays crucial functional roles and is associated with various stimulatory "growth" processes. And Ray has spoken about this several times and has written about estrogen in his books, referring to it as the "hormone of new beginnings".

It can be stimulatory just like cortisol or adrenaline, which is why high estrogen can make people feel great. This happens in transgenders all the time. But there is always a point where everything falls apart. In healthy people (and women especially) the elevations in estrogen are transient and accompanied with high progesterone as well.

Chronic estrogen dominance is reliably found in sick people. It's not a desirable trait. Cyclical elevations in estradiol as found through healthy menstrual cycle are quite healthy and I believe are part of the reason why healthy women retain some neoteny and overall greater resilience to stress than most men. This is at least, throughout reproductive age.

There is a dynamic at play here, an interaction between E2 and P4 that's important to understand. Jerilynn Prior is a researcher who has done the best job writing about this topic I feel.

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

Very insightful post @SonOfEurope

Indeed, I don't think Ray has ever said that humans "don't need estrogen". Clearly it plays crucial functional roles and is associated with various stimulatory "growth" processes. And Ray has spoken about this several times and has written about estrogen in his books, referring to it as the "hormone of new beginnings".

It can be stimulatory just like cortisol or adrenaline, which is why high estrogen can make people feel great. This happens in transgenders all the time. But there is always a point where everything falls apart. In healthy people (and women especially) the elevations in estrogen are transient and accompanied with high progesterone as well.

Chronic estrogen dominance is reliably found in sick people. It's not a desirable trait. Cyclical elevations in estradiol as found through healthy menstrual cycle are quite healthy and I believe are part of the reason why healthy women retain some neoteny and overall greater resilience to stress than most men. This is at least, throughout reproductive age.

There is a dynamic at play here, an interaction between E2 and P4 that's important to understand. Jerilynn Prior is a researcher who has done the best job writing about this topic I feel.

I'm just wondering how Ray reconciles all the evidence estrogen has a neuroprotective effect as well.

 

[mrchibbs]

I'm just wondering how Ray reconciles all the evidence estrogen has a neuroprotective effect as well.

I think it's important to realize that most of what we consider to be "evidence" from major universities and mainstream research centers are often just propaganda studies designed to perpepuate certain myths.

I for one, don't believe for one instant that supraphysiological doses of estrogen have any protective effect. It's been a sham since the 1930s. Estrogen therapy is associated with things like dementia so I highly doubt it is neuroprotective.

 

[supercoolguy]

Ha!

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

I think it's important to realize that most of what we consider to be "evidence" from major universities and mainstream research centers are often just propaganda studies designed to perpepuate certain myths.

I for one, don't believe for one instant that supraphysiological doses of estrogen have any protective effect. It's been a sham since the 1930s. Estrogen therapy is associated with things like dementia so I highly doubt it is neuroprotective.

Idk if you follow TRT research they are pretty much behind the idea that blocking estrogen via AIs is bad for the heart and cholesterol.

Idk to be honest.

 

[GreenTrails]

Idk if you follow TRT research they are pretty much behind the idea that blocking estrogen via AIs is bad for the heart and cholesterol.

Idk to be honest.

That's interesting. I'd like to know more about this.

 

[Lollipop2]

And how ironic... The accumulation of Estrogen and it's gradual damage to female gonads is precisely what starts menopause.... The more times a woman has been pregnant, and in former times of higher progesterone, women used to remain fertile into their late 50's.

Estrogen, aside from its functions that can only be coherent in short bursts, is a toxic hormone of cellular proliferation... It's the hormone of disorganization in the cell, chaos to start reproduction - it's spike is needed to always -begin something- related to cellular proliferation.... Such as a man who has just been seriously injured will have a localized and to lesser extent general increase in aromatization so tissues can start to heal, but that initial "shock " state must quickly balance towards progesterone or it will eventually become cancer.

Just like Cortisol, no one is saying Estrogen does not have a biological function in some amount, time, and the context of its regulator (P4), let's not go to extremes

It's just that in a world where we are already surrounded by it from every angle, and here's the thing, that's precisely the cause of women's issues and cancer, earlier and earlier infertility, and men's too - to paint it as something we're in "deficiency " of is just a joke.

BTW, in a Woman's hormonal cycle it is precisely Progesterone which sensitizes the body to E2, so in a younger woman with higher progesterone than her older self, even a lower amount of Estrogen has the same needed effect for whatever regulated sexual and reproductive characteristics it must perform during its short bursts, progesterone, by nature of opposition, is what sensitized tissues to it's antithesis and allows E2 to perform cohetently while at the same time protecting tissues from its toxicity (accumulation ) that as the years go by, and in a more estrogenic world than ever, eventually turns the tide and wrecks havoc, more estrogen.. Less sensitivity to it, more cellular damage, gonadal exhaustion and the path towards "menopause".

Excellent post. Funny I never looked at this thread until today. Totally surprised. Some seriously bad advice. @sugarbabe are you in perimenopause yet? I would NEVER suggest estrogen to ANYONE. Please people read up more on the subject. I take vaginal Progest-e and Cortnon which is Progesterone and DHEA 3:1. What a difference in my world! Stopped all peri menopausal symptoms and no menopausal symptoms. Not facing the dry painful syndrome. Estrogen is not needed. The body converts the DHEA to what is needed.

 

[Ben.]

Excellent post. Funny I never looked at this thread until today. Totally surprised. Some seriously bad advice. @sugarbabe are you in perimenopause yet? I would NEVER suggest estrogen to ANYONE.

She didnt suggest it to anyone? Just that it has its role in our biology.

I have never told anyone to take bio identical estrogen. I am not a proponent of using any exogenous hormones.

---

Sometimes i feel a little dismal from the absolutism presented here. Wouldn't ray peats work induce more open eyes to critical thinking of all potential possibilites that may help/lead us to get a better grasp of what is true ? Or atleast the realization that our understanding of the complexity that is "us" and nature is far from being understood?
That we should ask why until it is no longer possible to do so?

What if "taking care of estrogen" (w/e measures that entails) leads to a persons demise? Could you live with the fact that such a suggestion might ruin the life of another person? The same applies to antibiotics and probiotica. For one person it is the cure and for another it is the beginning of a long long series of health issues.

And before someone jumps me here, i do not advice estrogen to anyone nor am i an advocate of elevated estrogen levels.

 

[Lollipop2]

She didnt suggest it to anyone? Just that it has its role in our biology.

I didn’t accuse her of that. Did you read my post? I gave my personal opinion. I never accused her or told her not to.

Take a breath. Of course estrogen has a role. But one does not need to take estrogen to create a healthy balance of the hormones. Different stages of life present different needs especially for women.

Be careful not to do the very thing you accuse the forum of, becoming absolute.

 

[schultz]

And still, women are told that estrogen causes cancer.

It does. To understand why it's important to understand what estrogen is doing, how it works (effects on oxygen for one things).

I'm just wondering how Ray reconciles all the evidence estrogen has a neuroprotective effect as well.

Because he considers the evidence showing its detrimental effects to be more compelling and in line with his understanding of how estrogen functions in the organism. There are a lot of backwards ideas and assumptions in scientific literature.