Hi, I am new to forum and please forgive my newbie questions but also please help! My novice understanding from reading so far on this topic = estrogen alway bad. So why does it decrease in women as we age and does it serve a purpose at all in the body? Energy, etc? Of course the doctor listed horrific diseases and conditions that would surely befall if estrogen not supplemented and I'm not falling for this. However, my only question that persists is...if the young hold the standard for healthy levels and the young woman has higher estrogen, how is my low level good? Hormones work together to balance, yes? Please help me understand or direct me to the articles to read. Thanks so much!!!
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Estrogen And Menopause
- Thread starter frogified
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Welcome to the forum! Good you aren’t falling for it. Progesterone decreases at menopause, not estrogen.
“The "Estrogen Replacement" industry is based on the doctrine that a woman's tissues are depleted of estrogen after menopause. This doctrine is false.
The concentration of a hormone in the blood doesn't directly represent the concentration in the various organs.
The amount of estrogen in tissue is decreased when progesterone is abundant. In the absence of progesterone, tissues retain estrogen even when there is little estrogen circulating in the blood.”
“The menopause itself is produced by the prolonged exposure to estrogen beginning in puberty, in spite of the monthly protection of the progesterone produced by cycling ovaries. The unopposed action of the high concentration of tissue-bound estrogen after menopause must be even more harmful.
The decline of the antiestrogenic factors in aging, combined with the increase of pro-estrogenic factors such as cortisol and prolactin and FSH, occurs in both men and women. During the reproductive years, women’s cyclic production of large amounts of progesterone probably retards their aging enough to account for their greater longevity. Childbearing also has a residual antiestrogenic effect and is associated with increased longevity.
Being aware of this pervasive increase in estrogen exposure with aging should make it possible to marshal a comprehensive set of methods for opposing that trend toward degeneration. “
Tissue-bound estrogen in aging
Thanks @HDD! I was going to reply but I like your response much better.
L
lollipop
Guest
+1 I would only add that the ratio of how much estrogen drops as compared to progesterone during peri and menopause stages sets the real problem.
Estrogen drops much slower than progesterone so ratios become distorted and problems arise. Thus a small amount of progesterone supplementation helps return this healthy balance.
Welcome @Joanna Younger! At least your doctor did not try putting you on low dose ssri’s like my sister’s doctor did. I was livid when I found out.
Thank you all so very much for the welcome and replies!!! I have much reading to do! I’m hoping my doctor won’t give me a hard time about not taking the estrogen. He wanted to give me that as well as progesterone and testosterone. I have to read up here on the testosterone next. He’s also started me on 65 mg of Nature Throid to start (Hashimotos and slight hypothyroid). Also have one liver enzyme a little high ALT. I’m learning a lot but still figuring out how to navigate through the board and where to start. Last thing..I didn’t mean to use a full name to post..how to I change that? Lol. I did make a carrot salad this morning and it was freakin delicious and refreshing.
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The clinic I am following in California has been using Bio Rhythmic Dosing of E2/Pg for over 15 years now with SPECTACULAR results. Basically its and expanded Wiley Protocol ( and where Wiley fails many, they have made course corrections apparently). They are patenting their protocol and I will have my eyes on it by the end of the year hopefully. I have spoke to many of their clients and the transformations are truly phenomenal. Returning the serum levels to youthful numbers seems to work. I am eager to see their target minimums to compare to my levels I have been teasing out for the last 3 years. In men we also see replacing T properly being a total game changer. We have years of data on T replacement, but many physicians still have ZERO clue on proper titrating without residual damage.
L
lollipop
Guest
Interesting. Are you concerned with giving E2 to women who might be estrogen dominant like in menopause?
Lisaferraro I really think we’ll look back years from now and people will marvel at the archaic protocols doctors were giving. I feel like the current standard docs are two maybe three major waves of thought and study behind. The doc I’m seeing is studying to be a functional medicine doctor and although he’s not in the know about many things...he is way more open minded than most at least.
Retired yes. As for his post yes I read that. We still see a relative decline in estrogen output. So after much clinical experience with working alongside providers and seeing the real world impact, I can safely say that BHRT done correctly will enhance a woman's life just as it does in men. Problem is that there are only 2 folks doing BioRhythmic dosing in the USA right now to my knowledge. Static dosing is just not enough to upregulate all the receptors present that are dormant in tissue. SO, without saying too much that would get me in some legal waters, that is my position. BioRhytmic dosing which will in fact start these folks cycling again. That is not a bad thing for most but I get the occasional opposition from those that had horrible periods, a life of birth control and so on. Takes a few months to dial these folks in, but for the most part, when E2 and Pg are robust as they should be, then the Testosterone corrects nicely....In most but not all.... I understand this may be in opposition to what some say, but I only support what I know and I KNOW it works with few exceptions.
sweetpeat
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I've read that article before, and there's something about it that bugs me. I think it's this: If we can't know true estrogen status based on blood levels, how can we trust progesterone blood levels? I decided to re-read the article to see if I'd missed something. This time, I also looked at the references at the end of the article.
From the first reference:
"Contraception 1981 Apr;23(4):447-55. Comparison of plasma and myometrial tissue concentrations of estradiol-17 beta and progesterone in nonpregnant women. Akerlund M, Batra S, Helm G ....In postmenopausal women, the tissue concentration of E2 was not significantly lower than in menstruating women in follicular phase, and the tissue concentration of P was not significantly lower than in fertile women in any of the phases. Neither in these women nor in menstruating women was there a close correlation between tissue and plasma levels. The present data indicate that the myometrial uptake capacity for ovarian steroids may be saturated, and also that a certain amount of these steroids is bound to tissue even if plasma levels are low."
So plasma levels of both estradiol and progesterone don't correlate to tissue levels. How then does one know if you're estrogen dominant? According to the study, tissue progesterone levels could be fine even if blood levels are low, same as with estrogen. I suppose you could go by symptoms. Yet Peat says to try to get progesterone blood levels at 10 to 100 times that of estradiol. What's the point of that if plasma levels don't correlate to tissue levels anyway?
Yes there are thresholds that can be reached in serum using prescription E2 and Pg preparations. Presentation by the client of symptoms is used for sure. Vitality, libido, lean mass all are considered. We do this in men. I mean personally I don't like T levels in the 1100-1200 range and sides must be controlled. So for me, my sweetspot tends to be about 800 with E2 below 30. I also use Pregnenolone and some DHEA and occasional HCG for my personal optimization. SO bio-individual, but we must start somewhere and evaluate. Just my .02Cents
This is a good question for Ray Peat. I have been trying to find an old post where I believe Peatarian said something along the lines of measuring progesterone from the brain. I believe this was implying that the blood tests are not that useful.
“The brain is the body's richest source of cholesterol, which, with adequate thyroid hormone and vitamin A, is converted into the steroid hormones pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA, in proportion to the quantity circulating in blood in low-density lipoproteins. The brain is also the richest source of these very water-insoluble (hydrophobic) steroid hormones; it has a concentration about 20 times higher than the serum, for example. The active thyroid hormone is also concentrated many-fold in the brain.”
However, Ray wrote about measuring the progesterone levels to see the effectiveness of the progesterone taken.
“Because of the difficulties involved in scientifically studying the clinical effectiveness of various formulations, I think the most practical way of evaluating the effectiveness of different progesterone formulations is to measure the amount extractable from the red blood cells, a few hours after the peak serum level has been reached. This will reasonably reflect the amounts reaching brain cells, adrenal glands, and the various other cells on which progesterone has its therapeutic action.”
Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone
SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: And also Dr Peat, how would you compare estrogen levels with menopausal women and men? RAY PEAT: With aging, a man’s estrogen pretty steadily increases but if he has a heart attack it goes up sharply or if he has a traumatic injury it goes up during the recovery time - but generally there’s a trend upward in men and in women when the ovaries stop cycling and up until about the age of 38–40 there is an actual steady increase in the estrogen and when the ovaries stop cycling, they stop
00:20:42 > suddenly producing progesterone but they continue producing a considerable amount of estrogen until the body can adjust it downward. So there are a few years in the 40s or early 50s usually, when estrogen is extremely excessive relative to the anti- estrogen effect of progesterone. But then again after the ovaries have pretty much stopped functioning, the rest of the body, as the progesterone fails, all the other tissues begin, similarly it happens in men, all of a woman’s tissues tend to start increasing their production of estrogen so that after menopause, the fatter a woman is, the more estrogen she’s producing
00:21:44 > because the fat tissue is a good source of it. But any tissue after menopause to the degree that it’s stressed, will begin producing estrogen. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: So is that about the same level between men and women, after the menopausal period? RAY PEAT: Yeah, I think woman tend to be fatter in old age and so they are more likely to have a higher level of estrogen. But just measuring the blood estrogen gives a misleading impression because when progesterone is deficient, the estrogen receptor as well as the aromatase enzyme that makes estrogen, the receptors binded in cells and there’s no progesterone to destroy the estrogen receptor so it just stays in the cell and some of the enzymes that
00:22:46 > are no longer inactivated by progesterone, other enzymes capture circulating estrogen that should have been excreted, cause it to be deposited in cells still other enzymes shift any estrogen away from the estrone form to the estriol form which is the most active, intense estrogen. So everything that happens when progesterone is deficient tends to load up various cells all through the body with more and more estrogenic stimulation, even though, it isn’t being released to be measured in the blood. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Right, so the blood test could appear that it’s fine but if you have a large amount of fat cells it could be stored in that and other tissues. And what about weight loss for woman who are in the menopause state, to lose that
00:23:48 > weight do they then poison themselves with that estrogen as it comes out of the cells? RAY PEAT: Just temporarily, but it’s better to get rid of it than have it local because inside the cells because it produces things such as breast cancer, lung cancer, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, all of the tissues that no longer have enough progesterone are subject to cancer infestation.
Dr Peat, I wanted to pick up on the point that you mentioned during your last discourse there. I’ve not
00:25:52 > heard that before: Progesterone destroys the estrogen receptor? Does anything similarly happen with estrogen doing the same thing to progesterone receptors or is it just that way around? RAY PEAT: Well, estrogen activates its own receptor in most tissues and it will activate inflammatory things, which tend to turn off the progesterone receptor, if you have excess. Generally, the normal function would be for progesterone to rise as soon as the estrogen has had its surge and then knock it out. The estrogen is fine if it is active only for 12- 24hrs every month. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: It does its job and then it’s finished. ANDREW MURRAY: But like you said the tissues will carry on producing estrogen in tissues especially in obese individuals and
00:26:54 > menopausal or even postmenopausal women. RAY PEAT: Yeah. Alexander Lipschutz showed that if you remove the ovaries and then implant just a tiny estrogen-releasing pellet, just a very small but continuous dose, it’s very carcinogenic. But if you interrupt that, or even a large dose with progesterone periodically, you don’t get cancer and in his experiments the estrogen uninterrupted was carcinogenic to uterus, breasts, lungs, kidneys, brain and intestines, basically everything. ANDREW MURRAY: OK, so just another call for all the ladies out there that there really is nothing, and I know it is a personal thing, but nothing wrong with continuing your menstrual cycle as long as you possibly can Progesterone is your friend, estrogen is your enemy
00:27:56 > and the only thing really that estrogen is any good for is the implantation
Ray Peat
“Progesterone and vitamin A interact with the thyroid hormone; when body temperature is below normal there is typically a progesterone deficiency (or estrogen excess, which may be functionally equivalent to a thyroid deficiency).”
Much of that fits with the optimization of Post Menopausal woman imo. I mean if we do nothing and the state of the body is excess E2 and Pg is bottomed out, why suffer..? I think where most have an issue giving woman Bio-identical E2 and Pg to levels when they were more youthful. Clinically if done correctly (in my humble opinion...=)), using certain SERUM targets, you will displace excess E2 in tissue as the axis recognizes blood stream levels and sheds E2 through normal processes like Glucuronidation, lowering aromatase etc. I use Calcium D Glucarate with men, but it effective with woman as well. Calcium-D-glucarate. - PubMed - NCBI
CALLER: Well, what is his opinion of the bio -identical hormone? RAY PEAT: Well, all of the hormones that are bioidentical can have – they have to fit into the system in a balanced way and
00:56:18 > it is okay to have a physiological amount of any of the serotonin, estrogen, melatonin and so on. But when you supplement estrogen or serotonin, you are most likely increasing something that is already excessive. The doctrine of replacement with the natural hormones, it’s building on the history of the estrogen replacement with synthetic hormones. And what they neglect is that, as a woman ages from age 19 to 39, for example, there is a steady average increase in the amount of estrogen in her bloodstream as well as a fairly continuous amount of progesterone. With every
00:57:20 > cycle, the estrogen is forced out of the cells or through the body by the rising – large amount of progesterone. And in the 40s, progesterone production is no longer able to fully keep up with this deadly increasing estrogen production with the aging. And as soon as progesterone decreases and can no longer force estrogen out of the cells, the blood estrogen level will drop, but the estrogen inside the cells will increase. Publications by some – I think they’re Norwegians , Batra and others and by Richard Landau in University of Washington showed that the tissues of old organisms retain
00:58:22 > much estrogen in the tissues than the tissues of young animals. And the fact that you don’t find it in the blood is simply because estrogen sticks inside the cells in proportion to the deficiency of progesterone. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: So that was probably the reason why they recommend it is because of low blood levels. And so, Dr. Peat's advice would be to not use it.
“Hi, hello. I came in a little bit late to the discussion, but I haven’t really heard mention of the three different types of estrogen in our bodies. They have hugely disparate impact on our bodies. And I think that is really germane to this conversation, so please inform CALLER: us of that. ANDREW MURRAY: Sure. RAY PEAT: There are probably a dozen important types of estrogen, but almost all of them, the three main types – estriol, estrone and estradiol –
00:43:54 > those are the best known and have been used as drugs. Those all have pretty much the same effects, but just at different potencies, so that If you can turn your most potent estradiol into the others, you are protected against some of the worst toxic effects of estrogen. During pregnancy, enzymes are detoxifying estrogen by many different routes, but the index of a healthy pregnancy is when the estriol is high because that means you are destroying your estradiol RAY PEAT: very quickly. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: So the estradiol is the most dangerous form and that's usually what I recommend women have tested to make sure their most dangerous form is not too high. RAY PEAT: And these different forms are exactly the issue that
00:44:56 > Elwood Jensen denied happened. He said the estradiol can turn into estrone and estriol. But, in fact, that’s a major way of either activating or inactivating estrogen according to the cell’s energy RAY PEAT: system. SARAH JOHNANNESEN MURRAY: So the only reason you’d want high estriol is because that would tell us that the estradiol is SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: being detoxified. RAY PEAT: Yeah. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Not that high estriol in itself is protective in any SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: way, shape or form. RAY PEAT: Yeah. It’s about ten times weaker than estrogen, so every little bit of estradiol that you turn to estriol, it’s a down- stepping of your estrogen effect. “
Ray Peat
Imo, it seem illogical to add both estrogen and progesterone. Progesterone antagonizes estrogen. And what I would guess to be benefits of both estrogen/progesterone treatment is the powerful ability of progesterone to interrupt the damaging effects of estrogen, if in fact, real progesterone is used.
I will simply offer that the fact that the clinical presentation of bio rhythmic dosing flat out works. We see clinically a more youthful appearance, more energy, libido returns etc etc. All signs of thriving and not perpetuating advanced accelerated aging. Sure there are exceptions, and for some we see reasonable results with Progesterone alone, but the picture is so much broader. I believe you can displace cellular estrogens and detoxify them for excretion (especially in Post Menopausal folks. There is value to testing and analyzing with serum, urine and even saliva at times. I cannot discount them as useless. SO ensuring that those are broken down to proper metabolites and excreted is key as body BMI starts to change and the rhythm is restored. We can surmise all we want, but when you see the actual results (and you will start hearing more and more about this next generation of BHRT), I think we will also have more data available to answer many questions.
I find this recent publication of value: Sex Hormones and Healthy Psychological Aging in Women
"
Interventions: The Impact of HT on Cognition
"Hormone therapy consists predominantly of estrogens, since menopausal symptoms essentially derive from the effect of withdrawal of estrogens at different target tissues."
Dr Meehan on BHRT for woman:
"
Interventions: The Impact of HT on Cognition
"Hormone therapy consists predominantly of estrogens, since menopausal symptoms essentially derive from the effect of withdrawal of estrogens at different target tissues."
Dr Meehan on BHRT for woman:
L
lollipop
Guest
@skycop00 Is this research related to what you are speaking about?
Efficacy of biorhythmic transdermal combined hormone treatment in relieving climacteric symptoms: a pilot study
Efficacy of biorhythmic transdermal combined hormone treatment in relieving climacteric symptoms: a pilot study
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