Help me with Vitex dosing..

[June]

Ok it is time to put an end to my crazy bleeding I've had since 2018, when a naturopath tried to detox my liver with glutathione (I speculate it may have caused massive re-circulation of estrogen or it raised my prolactin). Long story short, profuse non-stop bleeding till now and I no longer have what resembles a menstrual period since it is continual. After that initial event in 2018, a gynecologist gave me high dose birth control pills for a month (6 pills a day) to try and stop it but what I didn't know was I was most likely very estrogen dominant to begin with. At one point he also gave me Prometrium that I took for a week. These pills only served to make me more estrogen dominant. I thought I was going to die not just from bleeding but from the hot flashes and mental anguish the BCP/Prometrium caused. It probably shut down my own ability to make progesterone/estrogen/testosterone, all while raising prolactin. I went through SSRI/Benzo withdrawal back in 2012 and wasn't recovered by 2018, so I suspect my dopamine was probaby all over the place. I also cold turkeyed birth control pills in 2010 but my periods always arrived in a timely manner up until the SSRI/benzo withdrawals, although they were on the heavy side.

My prolactin is currently in the higher part of the range. I looked back at old blood tests and I was always in the higher range. I'm presently taking DIM and Calcium D-glucarate, didn't stop my bleeding but it has lessened the flow. Im tracking ovulation and today I see the faintest second line on LH strips but I'm still bleeding. I have a feeling the DIM is helping some and my body is trying to have a LH surge. I've been tracking for over 14 days and if this was a normal cycle, ovulation would have happened by now. I am looking to initiate Vitex tomorrow at 800mg but I'm not sure how long to run it for. I've read to take it until a period arrives or if there's no ovulation to take it 25 days on and 5 days off. But with my continuous bleeding do you think it's possible for me to take Vitex continuously for two months without a break since I don't know whether my bleeding is an actual period? I assume Vitex will stop my bleeding at some point with an uptick in progesterone but if another bleed shows up, I won't know if it's a real menstrual period or if it's just one of these monstrous estrogen breakthrough bleeds. I'm not sure how to conduct this so I make sure that progesterone stays elevated and prolactin lowers to more comfortable levels. I'm afraid if I take a break even for a couple days, the progesterone won't be robust enough. Unless I would be doing more harm by staying on continuously. Any insight would be great!

PS. I have been using acupuncture on myself since 2018 to temporarily stop my bleeding for a week or more to regain hemoglobins. Instructed by acupuncturist. It's the only reason I'm still alive at this moment. I stopped going because i could no longer afford it and she couldn't leave me to die so she graciously taught me some points.

 

[Herbie]

@June Ray Peat never recommended dim or calcium d gluconate, I've seen that its been found to be estrogenic. I doubt you will get much advice about those.

I'm not sure about vitex. Hopefully some people with more expensive can chime in but I've seen many accounts of progesterone sorting everything out.

 

[June]

@June Ray Peat never recommended dim or calcium d gluconate, I've seen that its been found to be estrogenic. I doubt you will get much advice about those.

I'm not sure about vitex. Hopefully some people with more expensive can chime in but I've seen many accounts of progesterone sorting everything out.

Thanks! This is so interesting you say it is estrogenic. Usually i would be flooding by now but with DIM+ CDG, I am not. Could it have estrogenic like effects because it’s pulling estrogen out from tissues and it’s recirculated once the metabolites are reabsorbed in intestines? Of course, my bleeding has only slowed, no cessation with DIM yet. How can it be explained that i’m not profusely bleeding at the moment? I’ve been on this since Aug 17th, if there are any opposite effects, maybe I have yet to experience them. I hope that’s not the case.

 

[Herbie]

@June I don't know, his is a link about it DIM Is A Potent Androgen Antagonist And Estrogen Agonist

I while looking for it I read that @LadyRae used dim and calcium d gluconate, maybe she can share her experience.

 

[June]

@June I don't know, his is a link about it DIM Is A Potent Androgen Antagonist And Estrogen Agonist

I while looking for it I read that @LadyRae used dim and calcium d gluconate, maybe she can share her experience.

I hope someone will give insight into why it helps me partially. It is causing breakouts for me. Not sure if it’s an estrogen effect or detox.

Would love to reach out to @LadyRae but she doesn’t accept private messages. I’ve read her posts but still need more details.

 

[naevastar]

Ok it is time to put an end to my crazy bleeding I've had since 2018, when a naturopath tried to detox my liver with glutathione (I speculate it may have caused massive re-circulation of estrogen or it raised my prolactin). Long story short, profuse non-stop bleeding till now and I no longer have what resembles a menstrual period since it is continual. After that initial event in 2018, a gynecologist gave me high dose birth control pills for a month (6 pills a day) to try and stop it but what I didn't know was I was most likely very estrogen dominant to begin with. At one point he also gave me Prometrium that I took for a week. These pills only served to make me more estrogen dominant. I thought I was going to die not just from bleeding but from the hot flashes and mental anguish the BCP/Prometrium caused. It probably shut down my own ability to make progesterone/estrogen/testosterone, all while raising prolactin. I went through SSRI/Benzo withdrawal back in 2012 and wasn't recovered by 2018, so I suspect my dopamine was probaby all over the place. I also cold turkeyed birth control pills in 2010 but my periods always arrived in a timely manner up until the SSRI/benzo withdrawals, although they were on the heavy side.

My prolactin is currently in the higher part of the range. I looked back at old blood tests and I was always in the higher range. I'm presently taking DIM and Calcium D-glucarate, didn't stop my bleeding but it has lessened the flow. Im tracking ovulation and today I see the faintest second line on LH strips but I'm still bleeding. I have a feeling the DIM is helping some and my body is trying to have a LH surge. I've been tracking for over 14 days and if this was a normal cycle, ovulation would have happened by now. I am looking to initiate Vitex tomorrow at 800mg but I'm not sure how long to run it for. I've read to take it until a period arrives or if there's no ovulation to take it 25 days on and 5 days off. But with my continuous bleeding do you think it's possible for me to take Vitex continuously for two months without a break since I don't know whether my bleeding is an actual period? I assume Vitex will stop my bleeding at some point with an uptick in progesterone but if another bleed shows up, I won't know if it's a real menstrual period or if it's just one of these monstrous estrogen breakthrough bleeds. I'm not sure how to conduct this so I make sure that progesterone stays elevated and prolactin lowers to more comfortable levels. I'm afraid if I take a break even for a couple days, the progesterone won't be robust enough. Unless I would be doing more harm by staying on continuously. Any insight would be great!

PS. I have been using acupuncture on myself since 2018 to temporarily stop my bleeding for a week or more to regain hemoglobins. Instructed by acupuncturist. It's the only reason I'm still alive at this moment. I stopped going because i could no longer afford it and she couldn't leave me to die so she graciously taught me some points.

Hey,
Sorry to hear about your bleeding.
Are you taking Vitex capsules or liquid?

I used capsules in 2015 when I stopped taking birth control pills after being on them for 9 years.
I just followed the recommended dosage on the bottle which I think was 1 capsule a day..
It brought back a period in 35 days and after that my cycles were 28 days regular.
I had only been following Ray Peat's research for 3 or 4 months prior to that.

I remember reading about some women here that took small doses of progesterone throughout their entire cycles.. I believe it is once you have a regular cycle it is recommended to try only using progesterone from day 14 or so till period arrives.

 

[liam183]

Don't know much about vitex other than it can be very tricky to find the correct dosage. Too much actually raises prolactin. It's supposed to be used at a very low dose if I'm remembering correctly. As far as the bleeding, I would recommend lots of vitamin K.

 

[mostlylurking]

I am looking to initiate Vitex tomorrow at 800mg but I'm not sure how long to run it for. I've read to take it until a period arrives or if there's no ovulation to take it 25 days on and 5 days off. But with my continuous bleeding do you think it's possible for me to take Vitex continuously for two months without a break since I don't know whether my bleeding is an actual period? I assume Vitex will stop my bleeding at some point with an uptick in progesterone but if another bleed shows up, I won't know if it's a real menstrual period or if it's just one of these monstrous estrogen breakthrough bleeds. I'm not sure how to conduct this so I make sure that progesterone stays elevated and prolactin lowers to more comfortable levels. I'm afraid if I take a break even for a couple days, the progesterone won't be robust enough. Unless I would be doing more harm by staying on continuously. Any insight would be great!

Vitex is estrogenic:

Vitex rotundifolia L. f. and Vitex trifolia L.: A review on their traditional medicine, phytochemistry, pharmacology

Vitex rotundifolia L. f. and Vitex trifolia L. belong to the genus Vitex, and Vitex rotundifolia L. f. evolved from Vitex trifolia L. Both are essenti…

www.sciencedirect.com

Results​

A total of 369 compounds have been identified, including 159 terpenoids, 51 flavonoids, 83 phenylpropanoids, and 76 other compounds. Pharmacological studies have shown that Vitex rotundifolia L. f. and Vitex trifolia L. have a variety of pharmacological activities, such as anti-tumor, analgesic, antipyretic, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, antibacterial, and estrogen-like activity. Modern clinical use for treating cold headaches, diarrhea dysentery, irregular menstruation, and other diseases.
-end paste-

I spent many years (age 28-age 65) with estrogen dominance which was exacerbated by a tubal ligation at age 28. The hemorrhaging got really tiresome and the resulting anemia was incapacitating. So I can identify with your plight.

Have you researched progesterone? I've been taking fairly high dose progesterone for 8 years. It has helped me a great deal. I avoid all things estrogenic like the plague.

suggested listening:

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

 

[June]

Hey,
Sorry to hear about your bleeding.
Are you taking Vitex capsules or liquid?

I used capsules in 2015 when I stopped taking birth control pills after being on them for 9 years.
I just followed the recommended dosage on the bottle which I think was 1 capsule a day..
It brought back a period in 35 days and after that my cycles were 28 days regular.
I had only been following Ray Peat's research for 3 or 4 months prior to that.

I remember reading about some women here that took small doses of progesterone throughout their entire cycles.. I believe it is once you have a regular cycle it is recommended to try only using progesterone from day 14 or so till period arrives.

I will be taking capsules. It says 1 capsule twice a day for total of 800mg. My LH strips test shows no ovulation today unfortunately. Progesterone would be my next option if this doesn't yield any change. Did you use continuously without breaks? Any side effects?

Don't know much about vitex other than it can be very tricky to find the correct dosage. Too much actually raises prolactin. It's supposed to be used at a very low dose if I'm remembering correctly. As far as the bleeding, I would recommend lots of vitamin K.

this is the frustrating part. I read that at low doses it increases prolactin also. I tried high dose Vitamin k1 and all it did was cause my INR to lower which meant I was clotting quickly, yet I was still bleeding. So it's definitely about the ability for my uterus to stop making the lining.

Vitex is estrogenic:

Vitex rotundifolia L. f. and Vitex trifolia L.: A review on their traditional medicine, phytochemistry, pharmacology

Vitex rotundifolia L. f. and Vitex trifolia L. belong to the genus Vitex, and Vitex rotundifolia L. f. evolved from Vitex trifolia L. Both are essenti…

www.sciencedirect.com

Results​

A total of 369 compounds have been identified, including 159 terpenoids, 51 flavonoids, 83 phenylpropanoids, and 76 other compounds. Pharmacological studies have shown that Vitex rotundifolia L. f. and Vitex trifolia L. have a variety of pharmacological activities, such as anti-tumor, analgesic, antipyretic, anti-inflammatory, antioxidant, antibacterial, and estrogen-like activity. Modern clinical use for treating cold headaches, diarrhea dysentery, irregular menstruation, and other diseases.
-end paste-

I spent many years (age 28-age 65) with estrogen dominance which was exacerbated by a tubal ligation at age 28. The hemorrhaging got really tiresome and the resulting anemia was incapacitating. So I can identify with your plight.

Have you researched progesterone? I've been taking fairly high dose progesterone for 8 years. It has helped me a great deal. I avoid all things estrogenic like the plague.

suggested listening:

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

The confusing part of that statement is it says Vitex is anti-tumor yet has estrogen-like activity. I thought tumours thrived off estrogen. Also does this apply to Vitex Agnus Castus berries? Which is what my supplement is made from? Maybe other parts, such as leaves and stems, are more estrogenic? Sorry to read about your long battle with estrogen dominance. Hemorrhaging is so scary to look at day in and day out. Do you take Progest-E now?

 

[mostlylurking]

I will be taking capsules. It says 1 capsule twice a day for total of 800mg. My LH strips test shows no ovulation today unfortunately. Progesterone would be my next option if this doesn't yield any change. Did you use continuously without breaks? Any side effects?


this is the frustrating part. I read that at low doses it increases prolactin also. I tried high dose Vitamin k1 and all it did was cause my INR to lower which meant I was clotting quickly, yet I was still bleeding. So it's definitely about the ability for my uterus to stop making the lining.


The confusing part of that statement is it says Vitex is anti-tumor yet has estrogen-like activity. I thought tumours thrived off estrogen. Also does this apply to Vitex Agnus Castus berries? Which is what my supplement is made from? Maybe other parts, such as leaves and stems, are more estrogenic? Sorry to read about your long battle with estrogen dominance. Hemorrhaging is so scary to look at day in and day out. Do you take Progest-E now?

They'll "say" anything.... If somewhere they admit that it's estrogenic then you know what that means. Just extrapolate what Peat has taught. Estrogen's sole purpose is to cause inflammation. If Vitex is estrogenic I'd stay away from it.

The radio show interviews of Ray Peat titled Progesterone discuss estrogen a LOT. Also about the sleaziness of the estrogen multi-billion dollar industry.

I dissolve progesterone powder into Unique-e vitamin E. My homemade mix is very similar to Progest-e and it's messy to make yourself, but I do it anyway. I like the pump bottle Unique-e comes in; it measures out 200mg of E so at 11% of progesterone, I get around 22mg progesterone per pump; I use 2 pumps/day.

 

[liam183]

They'll "say" anything.... If somewhere they admit that it's estrogenic then you know what that means. Just extrapolate what Peat has taught. Estrogen's sole purpose is to cause inflammation. If Vitex is estrogenic I'd stay away from it.

The radio show interviews of Ray Peat titled Progesterone discuss estrogen a LOT. Also about the sleaziness of the estrogen multi-billion dollar industry.

I dissolve progesterone powder into Unique-e vitamin E. My homemade mix is very similar to Progest-e and it's messy to make yourself, but I do it anyway. I like the pump bottle Unique-e comes in; it measures out 200mg of E so at 11% of progesterone, I get around 22mg progesterone per pump; I use 2 pumps/day.

In this case, I'd be careful with vitamin E intake. It thins blood and can act as an anticoagulant

 

[mostlylurking]

this is the frustrating part. I read that at low doses it increases prolactin also. I tried high dose Vitamin k1 and all it did was cause my INR to lower which meant I was clotting quickly, yet I was still bleeding. So it's definitely about the ability for my uterus to stop making the lining.

go to this site: bioenergetic search
type in "prolactin", read the info that shows up. Peat recommended thyroid.
type in "vitex", read the info that shows up. If you find something you would like to hear, click on the type and the audio will come up.
type in "menorrhagia", read what comes up. Peat ties it with hypothyroidism.

I am hypothyroid and during the time that I had the problem, I was inadequately treated for it. In addition, I was thiamine deficient. There is a connection between menorrhagia and thiamine deficiency. Hypothyroidism and thiamine deficiency share many symptoms which can make things confusing. The thyroid needs thiamine to function. So both things can be correct; thyroid could be beneficial and thiamine could be beneficial too.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.103.2676.441

 

[wzuo]

If you are curious about Vitex and mechanism how it works (depending on dosage) see article in Polish from famous researcher : Niepokalanek – Vitex agnus-castus raz jeszcze, nowe spojrzenie na roślinę. « Medycyna dawna i współczesna

You can translate it, there's plenty of useful info that comes from practice use and research, not copied from the other websites.

 

[Peachy]

I’m not sure about vitex for your situation but I can share my experience and some info. Really hope you can find a solution.

Also would like to add that just a little progest-e lightened my period. It had been getting longer and heavier in recent years and now it’s easy again. However it shortened my cycle a wee bit from 28 to 26 days. I take 6 drops daily (separated in 3 doses) transdermally in the luteal phase.

I took vitex years ago to resolve amenorrhea. But I’ve heard it can do the opposite too (reduce flow). I made a tincture using these instructions. It worked well for me.

Here’s an article about who may not want to use vitex that may be helpful even if it’s describing a different situation than yours.

Flo Living - Natural Healthcare for Your Female Hormones

We make it easy & affordable to put period problems, PMS, fertility issues & perimenopause into remission with food-based protocols & natural supplements!

floliving.com

 

[Peachy]

I didn’t use a wine press or anything special. Just squeezed it out best I could.

 

[Peachy]

Actually I used the above instructions to make the tincture and dosed according to the below instructions. 40 drops daily in water for 3 months.

 

[mostlylurking]

Ok it is time to put an end to my crazy bleeding I've had since 2018, when a naturopath tried to detox my liver with glutathione (I speculate it may have caused massive re-circulation of estrogen or it raised my prolactin). Long story short, profuse non-stop bleeding till now and I no longer have what resembles a menstrual period since it is continual. After that initial event in 2018, a gynecologist gave me high dose birth control pills for a month (6 pills a day) to try and stop it but what I didn't know was I was most likely very estrogen dominant to begin with. At one point he also gave me Prometrium that I took for a week. These pills only served to make me more estrogen dominant. I thought I was going to die not just from bleeding but from the hot flashes and mental anguish the BCP/Prometrium caused. It probably shut down my own ability to make progesterone/estrogen/testosterone, all while raising prolactin. I went through SSRI/Benzo withdrawal back in 2012 and wasn't recovered by 2018, so I suspect my dopamine was probaby all over the place. I also cold turkeyed birth control pills in 2010 but my periods always arrived in a timely manner up until the SSRI/benzo withdrawals, although they were on the heavy side.

My prolactin is currently in the higher part of the range. I looked back at old blood tests and I was always in the higher range. I'm presently taking DIM and Calcium D-glucarate, didn't stop my bleeding but it has lessened the flow. Im tracking ovulation and today I see the faintest second line on LH strips but I'm still bleeding. I have a feeling the DIM is helping some and my body is trying to have a LH surge. I've been tracking for over 14 days and if this was a normal cycle, ovulation would have happened by now. I am looking to initiate Vitex tomorrow at 800mg but I'm not sure how long to run it for. I've read to take it until a period arrives or if there's no ovulation to take it 25 days on and 5 days off. But with my continuous bleeding do you think it's possible for me to take Vitex continuously for two months without a break since I don't know whether my bleeding is an actual period? I assume Vitex will stop my bleeding at some point with an uptick in progesterone but if another bleed shows up, I won't know if it's a real menstrual period or if it's just one of these monstrous estrogen breakthrough bleeds. I'm not sure how to conduct this so I make sure that progesterone stays elevated and prolactin lowers to more comfortable levels. I'm afraid if I take a break even for a couple days, the progesterone won't be robust enough. Unless I would be doing more harm by staying on continuously. Any insight would be great!

PS. I have been using acupuncture on myself since 2018 to temporarily stop my bleeding for a week or more to regain hemoglobins. Instructed by acupuncturist. It's the only reason I'm still alive at this moment. I stopped going because i could no longer afford it and she couldn't leave me to die so she graciously taught me some points.

I found an article that I think you may find helpful regarding estrogen:

These vitamins lower estrogen in your body

We know having too much estrogen causes health problems. And now we know that getting enough of these two B vitamins lowers dangerous estrogen levels.

www.dailymedicaldiscoveries.com

 

[June]

They'll "say" anything.... If somewhere they admit that it's estrogenic then you know what that means. Just extrapolate what Peat has taught. Estrogen's sole purpose is to cause inflammation. If Vitex is estrogenic I'd stay away from it.

The radio show interviews of Ray Peat titled Progesterone discuss estrogen a LOT. Also about the sleaziness of the estrogen multi-billion dollar industry.

I dissolve progesterone powder into Unique-e vitamin E. My homemade mix is very similar to Progest-e and it's messy to make yourself, but I do it anyway. I like the pump bottle Unique-e comes in; it measures out 200mg of E so at 11% of progesterone, I get around 22mg progesterone per pump; I use 2 pumps/day.

In this case, I'd be careful with vitamin E intake. It thins blood and can act as an anticoagulant

Sorry for sounding dense but why would Progest-E help heavy bleeding if it contains E? I definitely have watery blood. It lost it's dark red thickness after using some black seed oil and activated charcoal. BSO has some anti-platelet properties. Or maybe becus BSO is estrogenic..idk. I bled after using a dose. Will the Progesterone in Progest-E override that?

 

[June]

I found an article that I think you may find helpful regarding estrogen:

These vitamins lower estrogen in your body

We know having too much estrogen causes health problems. And now we know that getting enough of these two B vitamins lowers dangerous estrogen levels.

www.dailymedicaldiscoveries.com

Thank you! was just going to read up on B's.

 

[June]

If you are curious about Vitex and mechanism how it works (depending on dosage) see article in Polish from famous researcher : Niepokalanek – Vitex agnus-castus raz jeszcze, nowe spojrzenie na roślinę. « Medycyna dawna i współczesna

You can translate it, there's plenty of useful info that comes from practice use and research, not copied from the other websites.

Thanks! will do now! i forgot to ask here...does taking Progest-E cause one to stop producing owns progesterone down the line?