Why Can't I High Dose Progesterone?

[Kelly]

I've tried twice now to take high dose progesterone to stop my cycle for a time in an effort to treat endometriosis and migraines. Here is the endometriosis protocol recommended by CeMCOR: Endometriosis and Natural Progesterone It's 300 mg progesterone day and night.

Their migraine protocol is 300 mg progesterone per day with no breaks.

The first time I tried was with a high dose cream with very few additives and nothing that seemed problematic. I started having sore breasts and got the feeling of let-down, the same as when nursing, which I haven't had in 7 years. And it didn't have a positive effect on any other symptoms so I stopped.

I took a break for half a year then tried again with ingested progesterone. I felt amazing. It took away my mid cycle migraine and I had a little spotting but no other bleeding for my period and no migraine. Then my breasts started feeling very sore and hard fullness. I started getting bad hip pain while I slept. It was unbearable, I had to lower the progesterone dose, then I got my period and then a migraine. But no more pain in my hip or sore breasts (however my back hurts like heck due to menstruating and the endometriosis).

Has anyone else done very high dose progesterone successfully?

 

[Kelly]

Bump, anyone?

I had pretty debilitating mid back pain, I think due to carrying several folding chairs a long distance for the 4th. I took a little less than 100mg progesterone (I'm using the health natura simply progesterone) and 20 minutes later the pain was 80% reduced. Progesterone is amazing stuff and I so wish I could high dose it to treat my endometriosis.

 

[PowertothePeatple]

Bump, anyone?

I had pretty debilitating mid back pain, I think due to carrying several folding chairs a long distance for the 4th. I took a little less than 100mg progesterone (I'm using the health natura simply progesterone) and 20 minutes later the pain was 80% reduced. Progesterone is amazing stuff and I so wish I could high dose it to treat my endometriosis.

Well, my initial thought is that those sound like high estrogen and prolactin symptoms which makes me wonder about the quality of the progesterone. If you are using over the counter or prescription progesterone you may not be getting what you think you are in terms of both potency and quality. I think a lot of "progesterone" products are actually either synthetics or slightly estrogenic. Are you using Peat's product or Haiduts? I would consider trying either of those before giving up. Also there are a lot of lifestyle things that can help i.e. vitamin C. You can look that up online in a lot of fertility forums.

I have been taking pretty high doses of Progest-E for a couple years with good effect. The first good effect I felt was just a sense of relaxation. I had been so stressed the years previous and when I took the progesterone it was like I could let go and finally relax. It almost works like an antidepressant for me. I have been taking it long enough and high enough that I have very light periods but it hasn't stopped them. My main problem now is that I would like to lower it a bit but I get moody and crabby when I try to lower it, which I am taking as a sign that I am still benefiting from it.

 

[Kelly]

Well, my initial thought is that those sound like high estrogen and prolactin symptoms which makes me wonder about the quality of the progesterone. If you are using over the counter or prescription progesterone you may not be getting what you think you are in terms of both potency and quality. I think a lot of "progesterone" products are actually either synthetics or slightly estrogenic. Are you using Peat's product or Haiduts? I would consider trying either of those before giving up. Also there are a lot of lifestyle things that can help i.e. vitamin C. You can look that up online in a lot of fertility forums.

I have been taking pretty high doses of Progest-E for a couple years with good effect. The first good effect I felt was just a sense of relaxation. I had been so stressed the years previous and when I took the progesterone it was like I could let go and finally relax. It almost works like an antidepressant for me. I have been taking it long enough and high enough that I have very light periods but it hasn't stopped them. My main problem now is that I would like to lower it a bit but I get moody and crabby when I try to lower it, which I am taking as a sign that I am still benefiting from it.

Thanks for the response. Do you have any idea how much you're taking? I'm using Health Natura's Simply Progesterone which is just progesterone, mixed tocopherols, and MCT oil. I also get so many great effects from high dose progesterone. Also like an antidepressant for me and stopped my migraines. This is the first time I got it high enough to actually stop my period, which is really what I need to do for several cycles to have any hope of helping with my endometriosis, but the breast and hip pain is really unbearable. It's frustrating to think this *could* be helping so many things but I just can't do it.

I agree about high prolactin. I got some p5p and am going to try 10 mg of that for awhile, plus some daily aspirin, then try to raise my progesterone dose again.

 

[Vida]

Well, my initial thought is that those sound like high estrogen and prolactin symptoms which makes me wonder about the quality of the progesterone. If you are using over the counter or prescription progesterone you may not be getting what you think you are in terms of both potency and quality. I think a lot of "progesterone" products are actually either synthetics or slightly estrogenic. Are you using Peat's product or Haiduts? I would consider trying either of those before giving up. Also there are a lot of lifestyle things that can help i.e. vitamin C. You can look that up online in a lot of fertility forums.

I have been taking pretty high doses of Progest-E for a couple years with good effect. The first good effect I felt was just a sense of relaxation. I had been so stressed the years previous and when I took the progesterone it was like I could let go and finally relax. It almost works like an antidepressant for me. I have been taking it long enough and high enough that I have very light periods but it hasn't stopped them. My main problem now is that I would like to lower it a bit but I get moody and crabby when I try to lower it, which I am taking as a sign that I am still benefiting from it.

May I ask what your age is/was when started the Progest-E?

 

[Peatful]

Bump, anyone?

I had pretty debilitating mid back pain, I think due to carrying several folding chairs a long distance for the 4th. I took a little less than 100mg progesterone (I'm using the health natura simply progesterone) and 20 minutes later the pain was 80% reduced. Progesterone is amazing stuff and I so wish I could high dose it to treat my endometriosis.

Hi Kelly.
Im a fellow migraine sufferer that progesterone alleviated quite nicely.
And I also had to stop progesterone due to breast engorgement and weight gain in hips and butt.
I heard about the cortisol steal, but I do not fully understand the mechanism behind it.
I read a Peat quote once stating that a healthy liver, good glycogen stores, good elimination etc are essential prior to starting hormone tx.

 

[PowertothePeatple]

May I ask what your age is/was when started the Progest-E?

I am 41 and I started 2 years ago.

 

[PowertothePeatple]

Thanks for the response. Do you have any idea how much you're taking? I'm using Health Natura's Simply Progesterone which is just progesterone, mixed tocopherols, and MCT oil. I also get so many great effects from high dose progesterone. Also like an antidepressant for me and stopped my migraines. This is the first time I got it high enough to actually stop my period, which is really what I need to do for several cycles to have any hope of helping with my endometriosis, but the breast and hip pain is really unbearable. It's frustrating to think this *could* be helping so many things but I just can't do it.

I agree about high prolactin. I got some p5p and am going to try 10 mg of that for awhile, plus some daily aspirin, then try to raise my progesterone dose again.

I am taking Progest-E and I take 3 drops in the morning and 3 at night. And my first year I took 3 drops, 3 times a day. Each drop is supposed to be about 3 mg and it is a 10% solution of progesterone. I have no idea how that compares to the Health Natura brand.

 

[PowertothePeatple]

You have probably seen this but if not it could answer some questions. This is from Ray Peat's site.

PROGESTERONE SUPPLEMENTATION

SYMPTOMATIC: For tendonitis, bursitis, arthritis, sunburn, etc., progesterone in vitamin E can be applied locally after a little olive oil has been put on the skin to make it easier to spread the progesterone solution. For migraines, it has been taken orally just as the symptoms begin.

FOR PMS: The normal pattern of progesterone secretion during the month is for the ovaries to produce a large amount in the 2nd two weeks of the menstrual cycle, (i.e., day 14 through day 28) beginning at ovulation and ending around the beginning of menstruation, and then to produce little for the following two weeks. An average person produces about 30 milligrams daily during the 2nd two weeks. The solution I have used contains approximately 3 or 4 milligrams of progesterone per small drop. Three to four drops, or about 10 to 15 milligrams of progesterone, is often enough to bring the progesterone level up to normal. That amount can be taken days 14 through 28 of the menstrual cycle; this amount may be repeated once or twice during the day as needed to alleviate symptoms. Since an essential mechanism of progesterone's action involves its opposition to estrogen, smaller amounts are effective when estrogen production is low, and if estrogen is extremely high, even large supplements of progesterone will have no clear effect; in that case, it is essential to regulate estrogen metabolism, by improving the diet, correcting a thyroid deficiency, etc. (Unsaturated fat is antithyroid and synergizes with estrogen.)

PERIMENOPAUSAL: The symptoms and body changes leading up to menopause are associated with decreasing production of progesterone, at a time when estrogen may be at a lifetime high. The cyclic use of progesterone, two weeks on, two weeks off, will often keep the normal menstrual cycle going. Three to our drops, providing ten or twelve milligrams of progesterone, is typical for a day, but some women prefer to repeat that amount. Progesterone is always more effective when the diet contains adequate protein, and when thee isn't an excessive amount of unsaturated fat in the diet..

POSTMENOPAUSAL: Some women continue the cyclic use of progesterone ater menopause, because the pituitary gland and brain may continue to cycle long after menstruation has stopped, and progesterone is an important regulator of pituitary and brain function. The cycling pituitary affects the adrenal glands and other organs, and progesterone tends to protect against the unopposed actions of prolactin, cortisol, and adrenal androgenic hormones. Progesterone's effects on the pituitary apparently contribute to its protective effect against osteoporosis, hypertension, hirsutism, etc. But some women prefer to use progesterone without interruption after the menopause, for its protective antistress effects. Slender people usually find that two or three drops are enough, but this amount may be repeated once or twice as needed to relieve symptoms. Adequate protein in the diet and good thyroid function help the body to produce its own progesterone; even if the ovaries have been removed, the adrenal glands and brain continue to produce progesterone.



DOSAGE OF PROGESTERONE
Since progesterone has none of the harmful side effects of other hormones (except for alteration of the menstrual cycle if it is taken at the wrong time of month), the basic procedure should be to use it in sufficient quantity to make the symptoms disappear, and to time its use so that menstrual cycles are not disrupted. This normally means using it only between ovulation and menstruation unless symptoms are sufficiently serious that a missed period is not important. The basic idea of giving enough to stop the symptoms can be refined by some information on a few of the factors that condition the need for progesterone.

If a person has an enlarged thyroid gland, progesterone promotes secretion and unloading of the stored “colloid,” and can bring on a temporary hyperthyroid state. This is a corrective process, and in itself isn't harmful. A thyroid supplement should be used to shrink the goiter before progesterone is given. Normal amounts of progesterone facilitate thyroid secretion, while a deficiency, with unopposed estrogen, causes the thyroid to enlarge. The production of euphoria has been mentioned as a side effect, but I think euphoria is simply an indication of a good physiological state. (The history of official medical attitudes toward euphoria is a subject that deserves more attention.) Very large doses that are given in vitamin E solution, allowing complete absorption, can reach the level that is sometimes achieved late in pregnancy, producing both euphoria and a degree of anesthesis. To avoid unexpected anesthesia, the correct dose should be determined by taking about 10 mg. at a time allowing it to spread into the membranes of the mouth, and repeating the dose after 10 minutes until the symptoms are controlled.

An excessive estrogen/progesterone ratio is more generally involved in producing or aggravating symptoms than either a simple excess of estrogen or a deficiency of progesterone, but even this ratio is conditioned by other factors, including age, diet, other steroids, thyroid, and other hormones. The relative estrogen excess seems to act by producing tissue hypoxia (as reported in my dissertation, University of Oregon, 1972), and this is the result of changes induced by estrogen in alveolar diffusion, peripheral vascular changes, and intracellular oxygen wastage.

Hypoxia in turn produces edema (as can be observed in the cornea when it is deprived of oxygen, as by a contact lens) and hypoglycemia (e.g., diminished ATP acts like insulin), because glycolysis must increase greatly for even a small deficiency of oxygen. Elevated blood lactic acid is one sign of tissue hypoxia. Edema, hypoglycemia, and lactic academia can also be produced by other “respiratory” defects, including hypothyroidism, in which the tissue does not use enough oxygen. In hypoxia, the skin will be bluer (in thin places, such as around the eyes), than when low oxygen consumption is the main problem. Low thyroid is one cause of excess estrogen, and when high estrogen is combined with low thyroid, the skin looks relatively bloodless.

Symptoms in cycling women are most common around ovulation and in the premenstrual week, when the estrogen/progesterone ratio is normally highest. At puberty, in the early twenties and in the late thirties and menopause are the ages when the ratio is most often disturbed--and these are also the ages when thyroid disorders are commonest in women.

The individual who suffers from one aspect of the progesterone (and/or thyroid) deficiency will tend to develop other problems at different times. With cyclic depressions or migraine headaches at age 22, there will possibly be breast disease later, and often there will be problems with pregnancy. These people with a history of sever symptoms are the ones most likely to have severe problems around menopause. Prenatal exposure to poorly balanced hormones seems to predispose the child to later hormone problems.

Excess stress (which can block progesterone synthesis and elevate estrogen) may bring on symptoms in someone who never had them. Spending a summer in Alaska, with an unusually long day, may relieve the symptoms of a chronic sufferer. Dark cloudy winters in England or the Pacific Northwest are powerful stressors, and cause lower production of progesterone in women, and testosterone in men. Toxins can produce similar symptoms, as can nutritional deficiencies. A very common cause of an estrogen excess is a dietary protein deficiency--the liver simply cannot detoxify estrogen when it is under-nourished.

With a diet high in protein (e.g., at least 70-100 grams per day, including eggs) and vitamin A (not carotene), I have found that the dose of progesterone can be reduced each month. Using thyroid will usually reduce the amount of progesterone needed. Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol.

Progesterone stimulates the ovaries and adrenals to produce progesterone, and it also activates the thyroid, so one dose can sometimes have prolonged effects. It shouldn't be necessary to keep using progesterone indefinitely, unless the ovaries have been removed. In slender post-menopausal women, 10 mg. per day is usually enough to prevent progesterone deficiency symptoms.

In a 10% solution of progesterone in vitamin E, one drop contains about three milligrams of progesterone. Normally, the body produces 10 to 20 milligrams per day. A dose of 3 or 4 drops usually brings the blood levels up to the normal range, but this dose can be repeated several times during the day if it is needed to control symptoms.

For general purposes, it is most economical and effective to take progesterone dissolved in vitamin E orally, for example taking a few drops on the lips and tongue, or rubbing it into the gums. (It is good for the general health of the gums.) These membranes are very thin, and the progesterone quickly enters the blood. When it is swallowed, the vitamin E allows it to be absorbed through the walls of the stomach and intestine, and it can be assimilated along with food, in the chylomicrons, permitting it to circulate in the blood to all of the organs before being processed by the liver. These droplets are smaller than red blood cells, and some physicians seem to forget that red blood cells pass freely through the liver.

For the topical treatment of sun damaged skin, or acne, wrinkles, etc. the oil can be applied directly to the affected area.

 

[Kelly]

Thanks again for the responses, everyone. I went back into my old emails, when I asked Dr Peat about endometriosis years ago. His reply was only: thyroid, especially T3. I didn't follow through because I didn't want to mess with getting a doctor to rx it for me, or ordering from overseas. But I may just give one of haidut's thyroid supps a try.

 

[HDD]

This thread has a portion of an interview with Ray Peat on endometriosis-
Help For Endometriosis

 

[wild-bee]

PROGESTERONE SUPPLEMENTATION

Very large doses that are given in vitamin E solution, allowing complete absorption, can reach the level that is sometimes achieved late in pregnancy, producing both euphoria and a degree of anesthesis.

How large a dose would this be?

Kelly was it 300mg per day which you found to stop your period?
I delayed my period (once) by 15 days on this dose of topically applied cream but when I reduced down to 200mg bled three days later. I use it everyday but one time missed a dose and got my period on CD12 as though my body is not even storing any.

I don't know why I have to use so much, 300mg seems excessive but it's the lowest dose that I feel stable on and I've been using it for 18 months now. Is progest-E really 10x more effective than cream ??? Does thyroid really make that much of a difference?

 

[jitsmonkey]

The health natura product is great but if you're using 300mg that may be way way too much tocopherols (I don't know how much is actually in the bottle)
might be better off with the alcohol based product if high dosing

 

[jitsmonkey]

How large a dose would this be?

Kelly was it 300mg per day which you found to stop your period?
I delayed my period (once) by 15 days on this dose of topically applied cream but when I reduced down to 200mg bled three days later. I use it everyday but one time missed a dose and got my period on CD12 as though my body is not even storing any.

I don't know why I have to use so much, 300mg seems excessive but it's the lowest dose that I feel stable on and I've been using it for 18 months now. Is progest-E really 10x more effective than cream ??? Does thyroid really make that much of a difference?

progest -E and health natura's products are far superior to every cream I've seen and or used
thyroid makes a HUGE difference.

 

[wild-bee]

thanks @jitsmonkey - is it a case that the creams are simply progesterone suspended in oils rather than properly dissolved? or the quality of the progoesterone itself? the cream I use has 20% 5 micron progesterone from spectrum chemicals in coconut oil with 10% dmso.