Help me with Vitex dosing..

[mostlylurking]

Sorry for sounding dense but why would Progest-E help heavy bleeding if it contains E? I definitely have watery blood. It lost it's dark red thickness after using some black seed oil and activated charcoal. BSO has some anti-platelet properties. Or maybe becus BSO is estrogenic..idk. I bled after using a dose. Will the Progesterone in Progest-E override that?

There are lots of scary reasons for heavy bleeding.

Endometriosis and Heavy Menstrual Bleeding: Two Sides of the Same Molecular Coin - Hormones Matter

Hypoxia and mitochondrial metabolism may be the keys to understanding endometriosis and a myriad of other disease processes like heavy menstrual bleeding.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Bleeding Disorders Overlooked in Women With Heavy Periods - Hormones Matter

Bleeding disorders are common in women but rarely considered. What you need to know about heavy periods.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Doing things that are anti-estrogen/anti-cancer would be high on my list of things to try.

Estrogenic things include polyunsaturated fats (seed oils) so banishing them from your diet would be a really good idea.

i forgot to ask here...does taking Progest-E cause one to stop producing owns progesterone down the line?

Not according to Ray Peat. I suggest again that you take the time to listen to the three radio shows about progesterone.

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

 

[Jennifer]

Ok it is time to put an end to my crazy bleeding I've had since 2018, when a naturopath tried to detox my liver with glutathione (I speculate it may have caused massive re-circulation of estrogen or it raised my prolactin). Long story short, profuse non-stop bleeding till now and I no longer have what resembles a menstrual period since it is continual. After that initial event in 2018, a gynecologist gave me high dose birth control pills for a month (6 pills a day) to try and stop it but what I didn't know was I was most likely very estrogen dominant to begin with. At one point he also gave me Prometrium that I took for a week. These pills only served to make me more estrogen dominant. I thought I was going to die not just from bleeding but from the hot flashes and mental anguish the BCP/Prometrium caused. It probably shut down my own ability to make progesterone/estrogen/testosterone, all while raising prolactin. I went through SSRI/Benzo withdrawal back in 2012 and wasn't recovered by 2018, so I suspect my dopamine was probaby all over the place. I also cold turkeyed birth control pills in 2010 but my periods always arrived in a timely manner up until the SSRI/benzo withdrawals, although they were on the heavy side.

My prolactin is currently in the higher part of the range. I looked back at old blood tests and I was always in the higher range. I'm presently taking DIM and Calcium D-glucarate, didn't stop my bleeding but it has lessened the flow. Im tracking ovulation and today I see the faintest second line on LH strips but I'm still bleeding. I have a feeling the DIM is helping some and my body is trying to have a LH surge. I've been tracking for over 14 days and if this was a normal cycle, ovulation would have happened by now. I am looking to initiate Vitex tomorrow at 800mg but I'm not sure how long to run it for. I've read to take it until a period arrives or if there's no ovulation to take it 25 days on and 5 days off. But with my continuous bleeding do you think it's possible for me to take Vitex continuously for two months without a break since I don't know whether my bleeding is an actual period? I assume Vitex will stop my bleeding at some point with an uptick in progesterone but if another bleed shows up, I won't know if it's a real menstrual period or if it's just one of these monstrous estrogen breakthrough bleeds. I'm not sure how to conduct this so I make sure that progesterone stays elevated and prolactin lowers to more comfortable levels. I'm afraid if I take a break even for a couple days, the progesterone won't be robust enough. Unless I would be doing more harm by staying on continuously. Any insight would be great!

PS. I have been using acupuncture on myself since 2018 to temporarily stop my bleeding for a week or more to regain hemoglobins. Instructed by acupuncturist. It's the only reason I'm still alive at this moment. I stopped going because i could no longer afford it and she couldn't leave me to die so she graciously taught me some points.

Hi June, I’m so sorry you’re suffering. Do you supplement thyroid or do you know if your thyroid is working optimally (good temp and pulse)? Do you get adequate protein? Like you, my mum bled for years and it had gotten so bad that she spent a night on the toilet hemorrhaging. She was going through a bottle of Progest-E a week trying to manage it and after that night, I suggested she increase her thyroid dose and within a day, her bleeding stopped.

From Ray’s Progesterone Summaries article:

Symptoms in cycling women are most common around ovulation and in the premenstrual week, when the estrogen/progesterone ratio is normally highest. At puberty, in the early twenties and in the late thirties and menopause are the ages when the ratio is most often disturbed--and these are also the ages when thyroid disorders are commonest in women.

The individual who suffers from one aspect of the progesterone (and/or thyroid) deficiency will tend to develop other problems at different times. With cyclic depressions or migraine headaches at age 22, there will possibly be breast disease later, and often there will be problems with pregnancy. These people with a history of sever symptoms are the ones most likely to have severe problems around menopause. Prenatal exposure to poorly balanced hormones seems to predispose the child to later hormone problems.

Excess stress (which can block progesterone synthesis and elevate estrogen) may bring on symptoms in someone who never had them. Spending a summer in Alaska, with an unusually long day, may relieve the symptoms of a chronic sufferer. Dark cloudy winters in England or the Pacific Northwest are powerful stressors, and cause lower production of progesterone in women, and testosterone in men. Toxins can produce similar symptoms, as can nutritional deficiencies. A very common cause of an estrogen excess is a dietary protein deficiency--the liver simply cannot detoxify estrogen when it is under-nourished.

With a diet high in protein (e.g., at least 70-100 grams per day, including eggs) and vitamin A (not carotene), I have found that the dose of progesterone can be reduced each month. Using thyroid will usually reduce the amount of progesterone needed. Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol.

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[lilsticky]

9

 

[June]

Sorry for the late reply. I've been dealing with the anxiety and sleepless night the Vitex has caused. Good news..the bleeding is stopping..bad news...the side effects at the 400mg twice a day dose I used. I'm going to try a lower dose and see if I still feel the effects of heart palps, agitation and feeling hot and sweating. I'm afraid that a lower dose like 200mg could possibly raise prolactin. Unless I'm so sensitive to Vitex that it will raise my progesterone/lower prolactin at any dose. How to tell if these adverse signs is a dopamine effect, or an increased progesterone/lower estrogen effect?

There are lots of scary reasons for heavy bleeding.

Endometriosis and Heavy Menstrual Bleeding: Two Sides of the Same Molecular Coin - Hormones Matter

Hypoxia and mitochondrial metabolism may be the keys to understanding endometriosis and a myriad of other disease processes like heavy menstrual bleeding.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Bleeding Disorders Overlooked in Women With Heavy Periods - Hormones Matter

Bleeding disorders are common in women but rarely considered. What you need to know about heavy periods.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Doing things that are anti-estrogen/anti-cancer would be high on my list of things to try.

Estrogenic things include polyunsaturated fats (seed oils) so banishing them from your diet would be a really good idea.

Not according to Ray Peat. I suggest again that you take the time to listen to the three radio shows about progesterone.

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

I will be trying my best to implement all the anti-estrogen/anti-cancer. It's just strange that my bleeding only started when I took some substance such as LDN or glutathione. Other than that it was just heavy periods every 28 days. I chalked it up to to enduring stress from SSRI/Benzo withdrawals at the time and healing from it. I'm now learning those medications raise prolactin. I have no idea what happens to prolactin once withdrawing. Probably amplifies the damage.

Hi June, I’m so sorry you’re suffering. Do you supplement thyroid or do you know if your thyroid is working optimally (good temp and pulse)? Do you get adequate protein? Like you, my mum bled for years and it had gotten so bad that she spent a night on the toilet hemorrhaging. She was going through a bottle of Progest-E a week trying to manage it and after that night, I suggested she increase her thyroid dose and within a day, her bleeding stopped.

From Ray’s Progesterone Summaries article:

Symptoms in cycling women are most common around ovulation and in the premenstrual week, when the estrogen/progesterone ratio is normally highest. At puberty, in the early twenties and in the late thirties and menopause are the ages when the ratio is most often disturbed--and these are also the ages when thyroid disorders are commonest in women.

The individual who suffers from one aspect of the progesterone (and/or thyroid) deficiency will tend to develop other problems at different times. With cyclic depressions or migraine headaches at age 22, there will possibly be breast disease later, and often there will be problems with pregnancy. These people with a history of sever symptoms are the ones most likely to have severe problems around menopause. Prenatal exposure to poorly balanced hormones seems to predispose the child to later hormone problems.

Excess stress (which can block progesterone synthesis and elevate estrogen) may bring on symptoms in someone who never had them. Spending a summer in Alaska, with an unusually long day, may relieve the symptoms of a chronic sufferer. Dark cloudy winters in England or the Pacific Northwest are powerful stressors, and cause lower production of progesterone in women, and testosterone in men. Toxins can produce similar symptoms, as can nutritional deficiencies. A very common cause of an estrogen excess is a dietary protein deficiency--the liver simply cannot detoxify estrogen when it is under-nourished.

With a diet high in protein (e.g., at least 70-100 grams per day, including eggs) and vitamin A (not carotene), I have found that the dose of progesterone can be reduced each month. Using thyroid will usually reduce the amount of progesterone needed. Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol.

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

I'm so so sorry your mom went through this ordeal. Is she fine now? YES..I did the toilet method too. I actually sat there for long periods to gauge how fast the blood was dropping out of me. That and the fact I couldn't afford to use more sanitary napkins. No point in continuously changing when it can just drip and be flushed. I've lived by the toilet for these 6 years now. My thyroid numbers look fine except my Anti-TPO and ANA are high. I have something attacking my thyroid. I think my body is extremely inflamed from estrogen dominance. I wonder if the numbers would drop once I regulate my adrenals. I've been off the chart high in cortisol during my 9 years after withdrawing from my antidepressants. I will be trialling some Rhodiola soon. My protein consumption is good. I'm just about right but I'm worried about my Urate levels in my test results. I'll have to watch the protein or else my kidneys will be in trouble. So at this point in the game, my focus is the Vitex and my adrenals. I'm just not appreciating the fact that Vitex is giving me the warm hot flashy feeling. Like that heat that rises up the spine before one has a panic attack. It's really putting me off but seeing that my bleeding is about to end, I'm not sure what to think. I still haven't ovulated so I'm hoping with longer use, it will bring it on.

 

[wzuo]

Low doses have opposite effects.

 

[June]

Low doses have opposite effects.

That's my worry. So what is the lowest dose one can start at? 400mg? 200mg?
I'm also curious, am I feeling initially awful on Vitex like those who feel awful when they start a progesterone product. It's mentioned here that one should either increase dose or push through the side effects as progesterone levels increase. Or does that only apply to an external source of progesterone since Vitex increases own production of progesterone? But wouldn't any increase in progesterone impact estrogen just the same?

 

[wzuo]

According to dr. Różanski, low dosage of dry extract is 45mg <60kg and 90mg >60kg body weight
high dosage is 120-240mg

The effect of chasteberry on the endocrine system is slow, it lasts for months, hence the importance of regular use of the preparations. Chasteberry is also suitable for the short-term treatment of many diseases, e.g. infections of the gastrointestinal tract and respiratory system, bronchitis and pharyngitis due to infections and allergies; cough, gastric neurosis, colds, angina, fever, flu, digestive disorders, and even oliguria and lymph circulation disorders. In the form of tincture, infusion and syrup, it has an expectorant, drying effect on the respiratory tract, sedative, diuretic, diaphoretic, antipyretic and antiseptic. The tincture and wine extract have a warming and strengthening effect on the heart, improve cerebral and limb circulation.

be aware of because it can stop TSH secretion (it will be a problem if you don't supplement thyroid):

Interestingly, chasteberry has been shown to inhibit TRH (thyroliberin), i.e. the thyrotropin-releasing hormone TSH.

to produce your own progesterone you'll need to have pregenenolone, so adequate cholesterol is needed

 

[Jennifer]

I'm so so sorry your mom went through this ordeal. Is she fine now? YES..I did the toilet method too. I actually sat there for long periods to gauge how fast the blood was dropping out of me. That and the fact I couldn't afford to use more sanitary napkins. No point in continuously changing when it can just drip and be flushed. I've lived by the toilet for these 6 years now. My thyroid numbers look fine except my Anti-TPO and ANA are high. I have something attacking my thyroid. I think my body is extremely inflamed from estrogen dominance. I wonder if the numbers would drop once I regulate my adrenals. I've been off the chart high in cortisol during my 9 years after withdrawing from my antidepressants. I will be trialling some Rhodiola soon. My protein consumption is good. I'm just about right but I'm worried about my Urate levels in my test results. I'll have to watch the protein or else my kidneys will be in trouble. So at this point in the game, my focus is the Vitex and my adrenals. I'm just not appreciating the fact that Vitex is giving me the warm hot flashy feeling. Like that heat that rises up the spine before one has a panic attack. It's really putting me off but seeing that my bleeding is about to end, I'm not sure what to think. I still haven't ovulated so I'm hoping with longer use, it will bring it on.

Thank you, June. :) Unfortunately, she passed away last year, about a year and a half after she had the night of hemorrhaging. Along with the bleeding, she had reoccurring polyps that needed to be surgically removed. When she developed her first polyp and bleeding, I had her start taking Progest-E, but sadly her gynecologist said she needed estrogen not progesterone so she stopped taking it. Two surgeries later, the polyps had turned into uterine cancer and a year after her hysterectomy, which went extremely well following Ray’s dietary advice and having her high dose Progest-E and thyroid, she developed blood clots that traveled to her lungs and died of a pulmonary embolism. I later learned that those with hypothyroidism have a high tendency to clotting and we struggled with doctors for years to get her thyroid treated because her thyroid numbers were within range. Even after telling doctors that she stopped bleeding by supplementing thyroid, they told her it was impossible and to stop taking it so I personally put more value in temps, pulse and the achilles tendon reflex test when gauging thyroid function.

The heat you feel running up your spine sounds like adrenaline, which compensates for poor thyroid function. The adrenals are the backup energy source of the body when the thyroid, the main energy source, isn’t functioning optimally. I get that heat up my spine and even up into my head when I’m having an adrenaline attack, which is essentially the same thing as a panic/anxiety attack. The body cuts off circulation to the extremities to redirect heat to our vital organs to keep us alive so along with shortness of breath, a person may feel cold extremities or even chills/teeth chattering right before the rush of heat. At its worst, I start convulsing and pass out. For me, it’s triggered by hypoglycemia and/or an allergic reaction to something I ate, both related to my thyroid function. The way I understand it is when our blood sugar falls too low, adrenaline is released, and then cortisol is released to break down tissue into sugar to raise BS. If anything is off with my period, I know it’s my thyroid, usually that I need to increase my dose. Chaste tree berry was part of an endocrine formula I used for years. I wish I had taken it in isolation so I could share my experience with it and be of some help to you. I hope you’re able to find a solution soon. 6 years by a toilet is terrible, and it’s terrible that so many doctors are clueless.

 

[mostlylurking]

I chalked it up to to enduring stress from SSRI/Benzo withdrawals at the time and healing from it. I'm now learning those medications raise prolactin.

SSRI/Benzo withdrawals entail more that elevated prolactin.

benzodiazepine withdrawal Archives - Hormones Matter

www.hormonesmatter.com

SSRI use implies the possibility of serotonin overload which can last for years if you are thiamine deficient.

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

That's my worry. So what is the lowest dose one can start at? 400mg? 200mg?
I'm also curious, am I feeling initially awful on Vitex like those who feel awful when they start a progesterone product. It's mentioned here that one should either increase dose or push through the side effects as progesterone levels increase. Or does that only apply to an external source of progesterone since Vitex increases own production of progesterone? But wouldn't any increase in progesterone impact estrogen just the same?

When you start progesterone, it can cause the estrogen inside cells to come out into the bloodstream so high estrogen symptoms can worsen for a little while until the liver is able to detox the estrogen. Liver health and digestive tract function enter into the equation. Constipation can allow the estrogen to be reabsorbed via the gut wall.

I have no clue about Vitex except it is confusing because it is supposed to "balance" female hormones, whatever that means.

 

[Peachy]

When you start progesterone, it can cause the estrogen inside cells to come out into the bloodstream so high estrogen symptoms can worsen for a little while until the liver is able to detox the estrogen. Liver health and digestive tract function enter into the equation. Constipation can allow the estrogen to be reabsorbed via the gut wall.

Ray later said it’s a detoxified form of estrogen leaving the cells, and continued that for this reason starting progesterone shouldn’t worsen estrogen symptoms.

If that’s correct, it’s something else that can cause symptoms with the start of progesterone. Maybe just the transition, or another nutrient deficiency surfacing, I don’t know.

 

[mostlylurking]

Ray later said it’s a detoxified form of estrogen leaving the cells, and continued that for this reason starting progesterone shouldn’t worsen estrogen symptoms.

If that’s correct, it’s something else that can cause symptoms with the start of progesterone. Maybe just the transition, or another nutrient deficiency surfacing, I don’t know.

Or, maybe he was right to begin with and the later idea is faulty. How does estrogen inside the cells get detoxified?

 

[Peachy]

Or, maybe he was right to begin with and the later idea is faulty. How does estrogen inside the cells get detoxified?

Could be, but he sounded pretty clear about it. He explains how it’s detoxified here, starting around 1:35


View: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4Rdoeb2iIz4mIxcN32qmNb

 

[June]

Wow so sorry for the delayed reply. I never got the notifications for these replies! I wish I had more time to reply at this very moment but I am still dealing with the bleeding. @Jennifer I'm so saddened by the outcome. Truly sorry for what you endured. You can understand my distrust in the medical profession. My heart goes out to you.

I really appreciate the replies. I feel encouraged to continue on. On a positive note, I am seeing very slight improvement with Vitex. I discovered the hot flashes I experienced was actually Vitex amplifying the remaining effects of DIM since at that point I stopped DIM when it made me feel off. It initially helped and then I became more estrogenic!! I haven't a clue whether it's because the conversion of estrogens made me more estrogenic? I carried on with Vitex despite the uptick in estrogen symptoms, suspecting it was DIM since Vitex is more pro-progesterone in higher doses. There's slow improvements with Vitex at my current dose of 2200mg, split into two doses. I have read 2500mg is the cut off point for dry herbs or berry. Just for consistency sake, I will stick to 2400mg cause that allows me to take the full capsules rather than me opening them to split doses. I will probably stick to this dose for 6 months and then blood test to see if prolactin has dropped. If nothing, then I will move on to Progest-E. On the pregnancy forums, some take Vitex alongside progesterone, so maybe Vitex with Progest-E is an option. By the end of the night, the blood will engorge in my uterus and then drop down but halved in volume with Vitex, sorry for TMI. I can't seem to find more sources on how many grams taken is safe. One person on Drugs-forum.com was testing up to 20 grams! It's still early days of experimenting, so I will be back with an update.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, anyone know if my high anti-TPO and ANA could be due to high estrogen causing an immune reaction?

 

[Jennifer]

Wow so sorry for the delayed reply. I never got the notifications for these replies! I wish I had more time to reply at this very moment but I am still dealing with the bleeding. @Jennifer I'm so saddened by the outcome. Truly sorry for what you endured. You can understand my distrust in the medical profession. My heart goes out to you.

I really appreciate the replies. I feel encouraged to continue on. On a positive note, I am seeing very slight improvement with Vitex. I discovered the hot flashes I experienced was actually Vitex amplifying the remaining effects of DIM since at that point I stopped DIM when it made me feel off. It initially helped and then I became more estrogenic!! I haven't a clue whether it's because the conversion of estrogens made me more estrogenic? I carried on with Vitex despite the uptick in estrogen symptoms, suspecting it was DIM since Vitex is more pro-progesterone in higher doses. There's slow improvements with Vitex at my current dose of 2200mg, split into two doses. I have read 2500mg is the cut off point for dry herbs or berry. Just for consistency sake, I will stick to 2400mg cause that allows me to take the full capsules rather than me opening them to split doses. I will probably stick to this dose for 6 months and then blood test to see if prolactin has dropped. If nothing, then I will move on to Progest-E. On the pregnancy forums, some take Vitex alongside progesterone, so maybe Vitex with Progest-E is an option. By the end of the night, the blood will engorge in my uterus and then drop down but halved in volume with Vitex, sorry for TMI. I can't seem to find more sources on how many grams taken is safe. One person on Drugs-forum.com was testing up to 20 grams! It's still early days of experimenting, so I will be back with an update.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, anyone know if my high anti-TPO and ANA could be due to high estrogen causing an immune reaction?

Thank you, June. I appreciate your kindness. I’ve also had missing notifications. So strange. Anyhow, I’m really glad Vitex is working for you. I took it in a tincture form with an herbal strength of 1:4 so I was getting a fairly large dose of it and even though it was in a combination with other herbs, the formula kept my cycle regular when I was stuck consuming an inadequate diet.

 

[mostlylurking]

I’ve also had missing notifications. So strange.

Go to your account, then choose Alerts, then Alert Preferences. You can fix it there.

 

[Jennifer]

Great! Thank you, @mostlylurking. I appreciate your help. :)