Estrogen seems to make me feel better...

[Ben.]

I didn’t accuse her of that. Did you read my post? I gave my personal opinion. I never accused her or told her not to.

Take a breath. Of course estrogen has a role. But one does not need to take estrogen to create a healthy balance of the hormones. Different stages of life present different needs especially for women.

Be careful not to do the very thing you accuse the forum of, becoming absolute.

Yes i read it. The dot before the @ realy eluded me and gave your post a whole different tone. I should've quoted the others too that reacted negatively. My response was not solely based on your post. Sorry for my sloppy writing.

I can't see absolutism in my post, so that sentence seems to be missplaced to me. Being absolute is not necessarily bad, in certain topics and areas it is not unusual to behave like that. I am sure i have done it too in my past and i also know that i was wrong and shoudln't have done it. Noone here, nor ray can realy say with absolute certainty whats going on in the body of a individual.

 

[Lollipop2]

Yes i read it. The dot before the @ realy eluded me and gave your post a whole different tone. I should've quoted the others too that reacted negatively. My response was not solely based on your post. Sorry for my sloppy writing.

I can't see absolutism in my post, so that sentence seems to be missplaced to me. Being absolute is not necessarily bad, in certain topics and areas it is not unusual to behave like that. I am sure i have done it too in my past and i also know that i was wrong and shoudln't have done it. Noone here, nor ray can realy say with absolute certainty whats going on in the body of a individual.

No worries, I wrote in everything one paragraph which can confuse. Usually I try to separate.

Where I had a red flag in your post was accusing the forum. I have been here for about 6 years and have seen people come and go, extreme positions and moderate ones. The beauty of the forum is that it accepts ALL of them. Stay a while and over time I think you will observe it all. When something triggers me on this forum, I learn a lot about myself.

I just saw this quote and thought it had great thoughts on engagement:


On Learning to Argue

"Once people accept the case for why you need to be exposed to people who disagree with you, and who challenge your ideas, then the question is, how do you do it? And here I have two recommendations. One, the one that worked for me, that really helped me, because I was an arrogant argumentative teenager and young adult, is reading Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's so easy once you read it. It's a great book, it's a really fun book. And what he teaches you is, don't come out saying, “You're wrong and here's why.” Come out saying, “Oh, that's very interesting. I think you're right about that one thing there.” Or, “We have this in common.” Or, “I can understand why you're saying that,” or, “Here's something in my experience that confirms what you said.” And once you start by agreeing on something, then you can pivot to, “But now on the other hand, it seems to me that...” and then you can raise your point. And then you're much more likely to persuade the person ... If you're a Homo sapien, you evolved for group combat, you evolved for confirmation bias and motivated reasoning. We're not really evolved to be academics or scientists searching for truth in an unbiased way. We evolved to basically CYA, and win in social competitions. But if you learn some skills, you can actually be very effective as a teacher, as someone who persuades, as someone who changes people."

— Jonathan Haidt on TKP

 

[Ben.]

No worries, I wrote in everything one paragraph which can confuse. Usually I try to separate.

Where I had a red flag in your post was accusing the forum. I have been here for about 6 years and have seen people come and go, extreme positions and moderate ones. The beauty of the forum is that it accepts ALL of them. Stay a while and over time I think you will observe it all. When something triggers me on this forum, I learn a lot about myself.

I just saw this quote and thought it had great thoughts on engagement:


On Learning to Argue

"Once people accept the case for why you need to be exposed to people who disagree with you, and who challenge your ideas, then the question is, how do you do it? And here I have two recommendations. One, the one that worked for me, that really helped me, because I was an arrogant argumentative teenager and young adult, is reading Dale Carnegie's book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And it's so easy once you read it. It's a great book, it's a really fun book. And what he teaches you is, don't come out saying, “You're wrong and here's why.” Come out saying, “Oh, that's very interesting. I think you're right about that one thing there.” Or, “We have this in common.” Or, “I can understand why you're saying that,” or, “Here's something in my experience that confirms what you said.” And once you start by agreeing on something, then you can pivot to, “But now on the other hand, it seems to me that...” and then you can raise your point. And then you're much more likely to persuade the person ... If you're a Homo sapien, you evolved for group combat, you evolved for confirmation bias and motivated reasoning. We're not really evolved to be academics or scientists searching for truth in an unbiased way. We evolved to basically CYA, and win in social competitions. But if you learn some skills, you can actually be very effective as a teacher, as someone who persuades, as someone who changes people."

— Jonathan Haidt on TKP

Does it accept all? I guess that depends on the person or what majority of people makes up the collective of the forum.

The quote is good, makes me want to read the mentioned book. I've read some stuff in regards to that topic before, this post of yours is a good reminder for me to be more aware again.
Perhaps my post came across to much as judgment but i asure you it was mostly me trying to express my dismay that people so deep into rays work and having seen/tryed so much, came to such "strong" or even "absolute" conclusions for themself.

 

[Lollipop2]

dismay that people so deep into rays work and having seen/tryed so much, came to such "strong" or even "absolute" conclusions for themself.

Actually if you go look through people’s posts that have been here long, you will see that they have evolved and mostly through experimentation. My posts alone will show that: old name Lisa Ferraro —> Lollipop—> Lollipop2. This is what is exciting about this forum - soooo much experimentation. If someone is strong - like my opinion was - it might be because someone pulled themselves out of trouble using experimentation. I know I pulled myself out of heavy suffering and totally saw how estrogen dominance and hypothyroidism tanked my health so badly. That I pulled myself up and out of that completely by learning and experimentation with no professional help is downright miraculous.

Anyway, glad you found Ray and this forum, hang on, there is so much wisdom here. It does take some sifting and discrimination.

 

[InChristAlone]

Excellent post. Funny I never looked at this thread until today. Totally surprised. Some seriously bad advice. @sugarbabe are you in perimenopause yet? I would NEVER suggest estrogen to ANYONE. Please people read up more on the subject. I take vaginal Progest-e and Cortnon which is Progesterone and DHEA 3:1. What a difference in my world! Stopped all peri menopausal symptoms and no menopausal symptoms. Not facing the dry painful syndrome. Estrogen is not needed. The body converts the DHEA to what is needed.

Like I said I don't suggest using estrogen ever. But I also don't necessarily agree with the amounts of progesterone people use unless like you are doing balancing it with the parent hormone of estrogen. When I have used DHEA it gave me anxiety-a clear estrogen dominance symptom for me. So yes you are boosting estrogen by using DHEA.

 

[InChristAlone]

She didnt suggest it to anyone? Just that it has its role in our biology.

---

Sometimes i feel a little dismal from the absolutism presented here. Wouldn't ray peats work induce more open eyes to critical thinking of all potential possibilites that may help/lead us to get a better grasp of what is true ? Or atleast the realization that our understanding of the complexity that is "us" and nature is far from being understood?
That we should ask why until it is no longer possible to do so?

What if "taking care of estrogen" (w/e measures that entails) leads to a persons demise? Could you live with the fact that such a suggestion might ruin the life of another person? The same applies to antibiotics and probiotica. For one person it is the cure and for another it is the beginning of a long long series of health issues.

And before someone jumps me here, i do not advice estrogen to anyone nor am i an advocate of elevated estrogen levels.

Thanks, I agree, I don't like black and white thinking about biology anymore. I've read and listened to Peat for 10 yrs.

 

[mrchibbs]

Idk if you follow TRT research they are pretty much behind the idea that blocking estrogen via AIs is bad for the heart and cholesterol.

Idk to be honest.

I think there are no selective AIs and they never just block estrogen.

 

[Nemo]

"One of estrogen's effects is to chronically increase the circulation of free fatty acids, and to favor the long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids, such as EPA and DHA. These fatty acids, which slow the heart rate (Kang and Leaf, 1994), extend the excited state (action potential: Li, et al., 2011), and are negatively inotropic (Dhein, et al., 2005; Macleod, et al., 1998; Negretti, et al., 2000), are being proposed as heart protective drugs. (EPA and alpha-linoleic acid also prolong the QT interval: Dhein, et al., 2005).

"Many publications still promote estrogen as a cardioprotective drug, but there is now increased recognition of its role in heart failure and sudden cardiac death. A prolonged excited state (action potential) and delayed relaxation (QT interval) are known to increase the risk of arrhythmia and sudden death, and estrogen, which causes those changes in humans, causes sudden cardiac death in susceptible rabbits, with an adrenergic stimulant increasing the arrhythmias, and progesterone and androgen preventing them (Odening et al., 2012). Progesterone's protective effect seems to be the result of accelerating recovery of the resting state (Cheng, et al., 2012).

"Estrogen's interactions with adrenalin in promoting blood vessel constriction has been known for many years (for example, Cheng and Gruetter, 1992). Progesterone blocks that effect of estrogen (Moura and Marcondes, 2001). Environmental estrogens such as BPA can exacerbate ventricular arrhythmia caused by estrogen (Yan, et al., 2013)."

Heart and hormones

invoking the discredited 'wear and tear' theory of aging, could have many unexpected harmful consequences. It would reinforce existing misconceptions about heart functions.

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

"By the middle of the century, many toxic effects of the estrogens were known, and more are being discovered.

"Cancer, abnormal blood clotting, and infertility were known to be caused by estrogen before 1940, but at the same time the drug companies began calling estrogen “the female hormone,” and claiming that it would improve fertility.

"Since the 19th century, some people argued that aging was caused by hormonal deficiency; for example, the symptoms of thyroid deficiency resembled aging. The estrogen industry exploited this idea to create the 'hormone replacement' business.

"Some hormones do decrease with aging, but others increase.

"All of the unpleasant consequences of estrogen excess happen to resemble some of the events of aging.

"If aging involves the same processes that are created by estrogen, then our knowledge of how to protect ourselves against estrogen can be used to protect ourselves against aging.

"Estrogen steals oxygen from mitochondria, shifting patterns of growth and adaptation."

Aging, estrogen, and progesterone

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

Ray: "Leptin (which is promoted by estrogen) is a hormone produced by fat cells, and it, like estrogen, activates the POMC-related endorphin stress system. The endorphins activate histamine, another promoter of inflammation and cell division."

 

[Nemo]

"The stress-induced factors emitted by irradiated cells are the same toxic factors emitted by cells undergoing carcinogenesis from other causes, such as over-exposure to estrogen."

"Over the decades, many studies have confirmed that prolonged, continuous exposure to estrogen is carcinogenic."

"Studies of the endogenous hormones in women showed that those with a natural excess of estrogen, and/or deficiency of progesterone, were the most likely to develop uterine or breast cancers."

"Among the cell activating factors, other than estrogen, are proteins that are considered to be "oncogenes," because of their involvement in cancer. Several of these proteins are activated by estrogen."

"Both the excitatory amino acids and a peptide that promotes inflammation, tumor necrosis factor (TNF), activate the enzyme which makes estrogen, aromatase. Estrogen, by activating NF kappaB, increases the formation of TNF, which in itself can promote the growth and metastasis of cancer."

"An enzyme that has been thought of mainly in relation to the brain is catechol-O-methyl transferase, which is inhibited by estrogen (producing effects similar to cocaine), leading to brain excitation.The enzyme detoxifies catecholestrogen (Creveling, 2003), protecting cells from DNA damage (Lavigne, et al., 2001). When the activity of this enzyme is low, there is increased risk of breast cancer (Matsui, et al., 2000)."

"Estrogen's effects in the nervous system go beyond the production of cocaine-like hypomania, or chorea, or epilepsy, and include the activation of the basic stress hormones, increasing the formation in the hypothalamus of pro-opiomelanocortin (POMC), which is a precursor of ACTH to activate the adrenals, and endorphins ("endogenous opiates"), which stimulate growth processes. Both endorphins and ACTH can be found in tumors such as breast cancer."

Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone.

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

"Unopposed estrogen increases water retention, without an equivalent sodium retention, so low thyroid, high estrogen people have two of the conditions (edema and hyponatremia) known to predispose to seizures."

"Estrogen also stimulates the production of free radicals. Calcium, free radicals, and unsaturated free fatty acids impair energy production, decreasing the ability to regulate potassium and calcium. The increased estrogen associated with seizures is associated with reduced serum calcium (Jacono and Robertson, 1987)."

"Estrogen blocks the liver's ability to produce albumin, and increases the level of circulating free fatty acids. Free fatty acids cause brain edema."

Epilepsy and Progesterone

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

"Estrogen (6) and cortisol (7) are nerve-destroying, acting through the excitotoxic amino acids."

"Tissue hypoxia (lower than optimal concentrations of oxygen in the blood) may result from estrogen excess, vitamin E deficiency, or aging. There is a close biological parallel between estrogen-dominance and the other hypoxic states, such as stress/shock, and aging."

"During these times of estrogen dominance [e.g. around ovulation], the blood is not only poorly oxygenated, but it has other special properties, such as an increased tendency to clot."

"Estrogen tends to promote spasm of blood vessels."

"In toxemia of late pregnancy, or eclampsia, the exaggerated clotting tendency caused by excess estrogen (or by inadequately opposed estrogen, i.e., progesterone deficiency), can cause convulsions and strokes. Vascular spasms could be involved here, too. The stasis caused by the vasospasm would facilitate clotting. (Vascular spasm has been observed in epilepsy, too. Epilepsy can be brought on by the premenstrual excess of estrogen.)"

"The amphetamine-like action of estrogen, which undoubtedly contributes to the general level of stress and excitotoxic abuse of nerve cells, is probably the only 'useful' facet of estrogen treatment, but a little cocaine might achieve the same effect with no more harm, possibly less."

"Estrogen's powerful ability to nullify learning seems never to be mentioned by the people who promote its use."

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS AND OTHER HORMONE-RELATED BRAIN SYNDROMES

The hormones pregnenolone, thyroid, and estrogen are involved in several ways with the changes that occur in multiple sclerosis, but no one talks about them.

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

"Estrogen and stress are both known to create some of the conditions of diabetes, while increasing fat oxidation and inhibiting glucose oxidation. Emotional stress, overwork, trauma, and infections have been known to initiate diabetes. Estrogen increases free fatty acids and decreases glycogen storage."

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

Diabetes was named for the excessive urination it causes, and for the sugar in the urine. It was called the sugar disease, and physicians were taught that sugar was the problem. Patients were ordered to avoid sweet foods, and in hospitals they were sometimes locked up to keep them from finding...

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

"With the incidence of hip fractures increasing while the percentage of women using estrogen was increasing, it seems likely that there is something wrong with the theory that osteoporosis is caused by an estrogen deficiency. That theory was derived from the theory that menopause was the consequence of ovarian failure, resulting from the failure to ovulate and produce estrogen when the supply of eggs was depleted. The theory was never more than an ideological preference, but the estrogen industry saw it as an opportunity to create a huge market."

"Animal studies show that estrogen stunts growth, including bone growth. The high estrogen levels in girls' teen years and early twenties accounts for the fact that women's bones are lighter than men's. In rat studies, treatment with estrogen was found to enlarge the space between the jawbone and the teeth, which is a factor in periodontal disease (Elzay, 1964). Teeth are very similar to bones, so it's interesting that treating male or female rats with estrogen increases their incidence of tooth decay."

"One of the 'estrogen receptors' appears to actively contribute to bone loss (Windahl, et al., 1999, 2001)."

"Verzar and his colleagues investigated the effects of hormonal treatments on the aging of rat collagen, especially in their tail tendons. They found that estrogen treatment increased the stiffness and the melting temperature of collagenous tissues."

"Estrogen was known to increase prolactin, and prolactin was known to accelerate bone loss..."

Osteoporosis, aging, tissue renewal, and product science

With the incidence of hip fractures increasing while the percentage of women using estrogen was increasing, it seems likely that there is something wrong with the theory that osteoporosis is caused by an estrogen deficiency.

raypeat.com

 

[InChristAlone]

That info is all fine and dandy, but a woman needs estrogen to have a menstrual cycle. For those that think estrogen is only a stress hormone you would be absolutely floored by how much estrogen is produced by every Mother in the history of the world.

 

[Nemo]

"Serotonin and histamine are increased by estrogen, and their activation mimics the effects of estrogen."

"Liver disease and brain disease, e.g., Alzheimer’s disease, are both much more common in women than in men, and serotonin and estrogen strongly affect the energetic processes in these organs."

"The high incidence of multiple sclerosis in women, and its onset during their reproductive years, is well known. The number of brain lesions is associated with the ratio of estrogen to progesterone. Estrogen activates mast cells to release histamine and serotonin, and activated mast cells can produce brain edema and demyelination."

"Irritable bowel syndrome, another kind of “movement disorder,” can be treated effectively with anti-serotonin agents. This syndrome is very common in women, with premenstrual exacerbations, when estrogen is highest."

"Estrogen increases serotonergia, and decreases body temperature, these effects help to explain the long-observed interference of estrogen with learning."

"The increase in the number of “cardiovascular events” recently seen in the study of women using estrogen is what might be expected from something which increases serotonin dominance."

Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

Serotonin research is relatively new, but it rivals estrogen research for the level of incompetence and apparent fraudulent intent that can be found in professional publications. This is partly because of the involvement of the drug industry, but the U.S. government also played a role in setting...

raypeat.com

 

[Nemo]

That info is all fine and dandy, but a woman needs estrogen to have a menstrual cycle. For those that think estrogen is only a stress hormone you would be absolutely floored by how much estrogen is produced by every Mother in the history of the world.

You need estrogen to rise for a few hours every month. Then, thank God, progesterone rises quickly to save you from the devastation of the estrogen.

Estrogen is something bad that women take for the team, to keep the species going.

You said Ray was wrong, but you were wrong.

 

[InChristAlone]

You need estrogen to rise for a few hours every month. Then, thank God, progesterone rises quickly to save you from the devastation of the estrogen.

Estrogen is something bad that women take for the team, to keep the species going.

You said Ray was wrong, but you were wrong.

No we do not 'take for the team'. If estrogen was the big bad wolf those who have the most children and breastfeed the most would be the ones dying early. But on the contrary breastfeeding can protect against breast cancer. And it is estrogen that is responsible for the ability to breastfeed. The breast tissue needs to grow and form the milk ducts. Unfortunately women who decide they don't want to have children are still exposed to growing their breast tissue and could be at risk.

Menopause is when problems arise and women have similar outcomes as men. Problems with PCOS and anovulation can also trigger many problems because ovulation is where the progesterone is coming from. We can't take away our menstrual cycle until after we completely stop ovulating. So the goal is always ovulation. And then after menopause it can shift towards making sure estrogen isn't unopposed.

 

[opethfeldt]

I see estrogen as similar to testosterone in that it is beneficial as long as it's opposed by the appropriate hormones. In the case of testosterone, this would be progesterone and DHT and in the case of estrogen, especially in women, it would be progesterone. I'm not sure why human beings always seem to have a black and white view of how things work. Almost everything in this world exists as a shade of gray. If estrogen were really so bad, why do men with low estrogen have greater all cause mortality than men with high levels? It's clearly a hormone that can cause issues in excess but this is true of pretty much every hormone. It's all about balance.