Cypro. Can it end the madness for me?

[Peroxphos]

I am taking 1 gram, 2Xday orally of thiamine hcl. Thiamine hcl tends to have poor success getting absorbed through the gut. It is absorbed in the duodenum (small intestine) and if you have any issues there (inflammation, SIBO, etc.) then the absorption is even worse than usual. I'm following Dr. Costantini's protocol (2 grams thiamine hcl/day based on my weight) and it has helped me a lot. 2 grams of thiamine hcl/day taken orally for 7 days = the amount received in one 100mg thiamine hcl by injection/week. See here: HDT Therapy .

I'm not sure whose "standard high dose 100-300mg daily" you are referring to. I spent about 4 months slowly increasing my dosage and experienced ups and downs in recovery until I began taking the 2 grams/day (Dr. Costantini's protocol). On that dose, my recovery stabilized.

High dose thiamine is thought to reduce cancer cells: High-dose vitamin B1 reduces proliferation in cancer cell lines analogous to dichloroacetate - PubMed Research has been done regarding different levels of thiamine dosage and the effect on cancer. Linking vitamin B1 with cancer cell metabolism - Cancer & Metabolism
quote: "In 2001, Comin-Anduix et al. evaluated the effect of increasing thiamine supplementation in multiples of the RDI on an Ehrlich ascites tumor-mouse model [58]. Their findings indicated a statistically significant stimulatory effect of thiamine supplementation on tumor growth compared to non-supplemented controls. Moderate doses of 12.5 to 37.5 times the RDI had the greatest stimulatory effect, peaking at approximately 250% greater tumor cell proliferation with 25 times the RDI. Interestingly, at values above 75 times the RDI, no change was found in tumor cell proliferation, and a slight decrease was found at 2,500 times the RDI. This observation suggests that there is a specific range in which thiamine supports proliferation."

Thanks for this interesting info.

You mention thiamine is poorly absorbed in the gut. Have you ever tried it topically? Such as in idealabs energin. To compare the absorption

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for this interesting info.

You mention thiamine is poorly absorbed in the gut. Have you ever tried it topically? Such as in idealabs energin. To compare the absorption

No, I haven't. I'm doing well on thiamine hcl. I tried TTFD early on in the thiamine game and it gave me a raging 36 hour headache from one pill. I get no negative effects from the thiamine hcl so I plan to stick with it.

 

[AVTISTICVS]

Do you know any Peaty compounds that antagonise 5HTT2C receptor other than cyproheptadine?

Not sure what a “peaty compound is”. I believe mirtzapine is though. If you’re looking for hunger mk677 also increases appetite substantially.

 

[golder]

Not sure what a “peaty compound is”. I believe mirtzapine is though. If you’re looking for hunger mk677 also increases appetite substantially.

A Peaty compound is, as you might intuitively guess, something that works favourably in a bioenergetic context.
Mirtzapine is an antidepressent with a host of side effects.
MK677 ramps up growth hormone, which Ray has spoken against at length.

 

[AVTISTICVS]

A Peaty compound is, as you might intuitively guess, something that works favourably in a bioenergetic context.
Mirtzapine is an antidepressent with a host of side effects.
MK677 ramps up growth hormone, which Ray has spoken against at length.

Cyproheptadine’s side effects and long term effects are much worse than either. It targets what Mirtzapine does plus more and with higher affinity.

If you’re against growth hormone being raised that excludes just about every other option

Natural options don’t exactly fill that void either without their own side effects.

Best thing I can think of is getting on a schedule. Eating exactly at the same times (to pretty much the minute) every day. It’s hard as hell at first. But eventually your body gets used to it. After about a month I could have eaten anything at meal time.

 

[supercoolguy]

Okay will try. Yes I saw the drowsiness potentially. Did you take a dopamine agonist alongside ? Or just the crypro

Solo Cypro 1mg@ night.
Need to learn about dopamine agonist, thanks.

 

[OliviaD]

October of 2020, my thiamine function was blocked from the Bactrim antibiotic debacle (took it July of 2020) and I felt like hell. I had been trying some thiamine but not very high doses. I got my thyroid bloodwork done 2 months early (it's done every 6 months) because I felt so hypothyroid (erratic pulse, low temp, brain fog, no energy) I thought my prescription natural desiccated thyroid was a bad batch. When the lab results came back, my free T3 was through the roof and my endo doctor freaked out about it and lowered my dose by 25%. My T3 was out of range high while I had classic hypothyroid symptoms. Both my endo and my regular GP told me that taking too much thyroid med (=hyperthyroidism) causes thiamine deficiency. But I had no hyperthyroid symptoms; just the opposite.

The endo doctor knew I was trying high dose thiamine and he was mildly interested as he had lost a couple of patients to Parkinson's Disease recently. He said to keep him posted about my experience with it. I got a lot better in February when I started taking the 2 grams/day; in May, the endo lowered my thyroid med again, to 50% of what I was taking the year before. I'm doing well now on that dose + the thiamine hcl.

It took me from October 1, 2020 to February 1, 2021 to get my dose of thiamine up to 1 gram 2Xday. That is when I started seeing some amazing improvement with things like my digestive tract.

I have a memory of Ray Peat saying that he preferred the older version of thiamine (hcl?) to the new fangled laboratory designer varieties. But now I can't find that quote so maybe I've remembered that wrong?

Dr. Costantini said (on his website HDT Therapy) that you should not have any negative effects from taking thiamine hcl. He said that he would rarely have someone react badly to the 2grams/day and when that happened he would stop the treatment for a week and then try again with half the dose. Dr. Costantini did not encourage his patients to take additional supplements with the thiamine. He said perhaps taking 75mg of magnesium once a week would be OK but people should be careful not to upset their digestion with too much magnesium.

After being on thiamine hcl for several weeks I played around with taking more magnesium. I was getting some relief from the cramping spasms in my feet and hands via soaking in epsom salts so I was pretty sure I needed more magnesium. I tested amounts of magnesium out and even a few grams didn't cause any issue but my chiroprator seemed alarmed about that so I backed off and settled on 1/2 teas. of magnesium glycinate 2Xday, which equals about 600mg of magnesium/day. I think you have to sort of feel your way through this. It's going to take some time. It's important to listen to your body.

Please read Dr. Costantini's Therapy page (linked above) and also read through his papers here: Published Study Articles The FAQs are helpful too: FAQ The videos are very interesting too: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu

The fat soluble thiamine is supposed to help you if you have "transporter" problems which are supposed to keep the thiamine from getting into the cell. But it seems to me that the fancy versions can open up other problems. Here's an article I found yesterday about it:
Paradoxical Reactions With TTFD: The Methylation Connection - Hormones Matter The more I read about the new/improved/fancy versions of thiamine the more I'm inclined to stick with Dr. Costantini and thiamine hcl. I should add that Ray Peat doesn't believe in trying to increase methylation. That said, I think that if you are having negative reactions to thiamine hcl that you should go very slowly and not "ramp up" too fast. It is not supposed to cause any negative effects.


My initial thought was maybe you need some magnesium? Taking some niacinamide and some riboflavin seemed to help me. I've settled on taking about 90mg of each 4xday. Perhaps a b-complex would be helpful?

Hi @mostlylurking - thank you SO much for taking the time to to write such an extensive reply! I don't have time now, so will be back later to reply more, but just wanted to quick thank you for your time and the good references. Yes, I remember reading about your Bactrim debacle! I'm still getting to know people here so didn't recognize the name right away. Yes, I probably do need some magnesium, as well as a B complex. I had been taking both pretty regularly for about 8 months or so, and sometimes it's hard to know if things are helping, but I think I am worse without them. My diet is abysmal, has been for over a decade (or longer), but worse the last couple years, so I'm sure I'm depleted in just about everything. I was taking Mg and a B supplement pretty regularly for about 8 months - not sure if they were helping; however since I haven't been taking them (I'll explain), things have gotten worse (may be other reasons, but that sure can't be helping). I ordered the B sup and it will arrive tomorrow, and I have some Mg Bisglycinate I've re-started, but I really want to be fine tune the dose & timing, etc. I just happened to have some B1 so just took that. It always has been my understanding that is is best to take all Bs if doing a high dose of one, but I was out of the B supp, and just thought I'd try it.

To be honest, it the past, I haven't been good about taking things consistently, and tend to give up easily if I don't notice any change. A lot of this is b/c I feel like I have been 'winging' it, without much of a plan; so I don't have a lot of faith in what i've been doing, it's easy for me to get lax. I really want to devote some time and energy to trying to fix myself and doing things in a more 'scientific' way, for lack of a better word!

Thanks again! Have a good day (or night! )

 

[OliviaD]

October of 2020, my thiamine function was blocked from the Bactrim antibiotic debacle (took it July of 2020) and I felt like hell. I had been trying some thiamine but not very high doses. I got my thyroid bloodwork done 2 months early (it's done every 6 months) because I felt so hypothyroid (erratic pulse, low temp, brain fog, no energy) I thought my prescription natural desiccated thyroid was a bad batch. When the lab results came back, my free T3 was through the roof and my endo doctor freaked out about it and lowered my dose by 25%. My T3 was out of range high while I had classic hypothyroid symptoms. Both my endo and my regular GP told me that taking too much thyroid med (=hyperthyroidism) causes thiamine deficiency. But I had no hyperthyroid symptoms; just the opposite.

The endo doctor knew I was trying high dose thiamine and he was mildly interested as he had lost a couple of patients to Parkinson's Disease recently. He said to keep him posted about my experience with it. I got a lot better in February when I started taking the 2 grams/day; in May, the endo lowered my thyroid med again, to 50% of what I was taking the year before. I'm doing well now on that dose + the thiamine hcl.

It took me from October 1, 2020 to February 1, 2021 to get my dose of thiamine up to 1 gram 2Xday. That is when I started seeing some amazing improvement with things like my digestive tract.

I have a memory of Ray Peat saying that he preferred the older version of thiamine (hcl?) to the new fangled laboratory designer varieties. But now I can't find that quote so maybe I've remembered that wrong?

Dr. Costantini said (on his website HDT Therapy) that you should not have any negative effects from taking thiamine hcl. He said that he would rarely have someone react badly to the 2grams/day and when that happened he would stop the treatment for a week and then try again with half the dose. Dr. Costantini did not encourage his patients to take additional supplements with the thiamine. He said perhaps taking 75mg of magnesium once a week would be OK but people should be careful not to upset their digestion with too much magnesium.

After being on thiamine hcl for several weeks I played around with taking more magnesium. I was getting some relief from the cramping spasms in my feet and hands via soaking in epsom salts so I was pretty sure I needed more magnesium. I tested amounts of magnesium out and even a few grams didn't cause any issue but my chiroprator seemed alarmed about that so I backed off and settled on 1/2 teas. of magnesium glycinate 2Xday, which equals about 600mg of magnesium/day. I think you have to sort of feel your way through this. It's going to take some time. It's important to listen to your body.

Please read Dr. Costantini's Therapy page (linked above) and also read through his papers here: Published Study Articles The FAQs are helpful too: FAQ The videos are very interesting too: Videos Parkinson's Patients before and after treatment - Ultima Edizione.Eu

The fat soluble thiamine is supposed to help you if you have "transporter" problems which are supposed to keep the thiamine from getting into the cell. But it seems to me that the fancy versions can open up other problems. Here's an article I found yesterday about it:
Paradoxical Reactions With TTFD: The Methylation Connection - Hormones Matter The more I read about the new/improved/fancy versions of thiamine the more I'm inclined to stick with Dr. Costantini and thiamine hcl. I should add that Ray Peat doesn't believe in trying to increase methylation. That said, I think that if you are having negative reactions to thiamine hcl that you should go very slowly and not "ramp up" too fast. It is not supposed to cause any negative effects.


My initial thought was maybe you need some magnesium? Taking some niacinamide and some riboflavin seemed to help me. I've settled on taking about 90mg of each 4xday. Perhaps a b-complex would be helpful?

re: Ray Peat's thoughts: that does sound like something he would say! I have read Dr. Constantine's info on his website (or what the person writing for him posted). He prefers the thiamine HCl also.

I also agree with you - in general, I think often pharma & supplement companies (which are just as bad with the marketing) try to make 'fancy, new and improved' formulations to sell a new product.

When you said it took from Oct to Feb to get your B1 dose to 1g 2x/day, do you mean that you ramped up to that dose, or had to play around with different higher doses to find this as the optimal?

After reading his page, I decided to just go rambo and try his usual protocol for the PD patients - which was to use the high dose, usually 2g right away, and see if there is a response. I am going to try to be good scientist and document carefully. I have not always done that I'm also feeling impatient, as having a bad day.

I took 1000 mg this am with a B Supp, although now i'm now sure if I want to add the latter. Interestingly , I didn't have a headache after this. Who knows. Maybe the past headaches were caused by something else. I had taken IVM yesterday and today, and maybe that helps the headaches.

Yes, I read that he did not recommend Mg, except 2x per week, an extended release form (that might be an Italian brand).

He also recommended not taking the B supplement or rather one with B6, but mainly b/c it inhibits the peripheral dopamine decarboxylase, which would be a problem for the PD patients taking L-dopa for treatment. Shouldn't be a problem for me, and since I am taking it for GI issues, maybe the B's would be good for me.

It sounds like you have a good endo who works with you, and your GP. That is great.

I guess I'm kind of grasping at straws, as I'm hoping to ameliorate GI function - and I wish there was a "GI Dr. Constantine" - b/c I don't know of any forum or any place where people are using this/ or have used this.

Am I correct in that the low thiamine caused the hypo symptoms you describe above, and that is what you have been getting relief from?

 

[mostlylurking]

re: Ray Peat's thoughts: that does sound like something he would say! I have read Dr. Constantine's info on his website (or what the person writing for him posted). He prefers the thiamine HCl also.

re: Ray Peat's thoughts: I also have a memory of Ray warning about P5P as it is much easier to get too much of it (toxic amount) than it is with just taking plain old B6. This is what makes me question my "memory" of Ray saying that about thiamine. Here's a link to a collection of Ray Peat quotes on thiamine: Ray Peat On Vitamin B1 - Thiamine He likes thiamine, he's just not enthusiastic about the high dosing (2 grams/day). I'm doing the high dose anyway because it has been so helpful for me.

When you said it took from Oct to Feb to get your B1 dose to 1g 2x/day, do you mean that you ramped up to that dose, or had to play around with different higher doses to find this as the optimal?

I didn't have anyone helping me so I was just winging it. When a dose stopped working for me, I would increase it and then it would work again. Around mid January of 2021 I was up to 1500mg/day and it wasn't working so well again. So I went searching online and found Dr. Costantini's site and learned that 2 grams/day would be OK for me to try so I did. Within 2 days, I experienced massive improvement in my digestive tract. It was really remarkable.

According to my weight at that time, my optimal dose was supposed to be 2.5grams/day (not 2grams/day) so one day (March of 2021) I tried that higher dose. That night I experienced shooting electrical zaps in my thighs when I lay down to sleep. I found online (Costantini article?) that the electrical zapping pains were a sign that I had taken too much so I settled on the 2 gram/day dose as my correct dose. I had packed on 25 pounds in about 30 days when the Bactrim blocked my thiamine function (summer of 2020); I've lost that weight now and according to my current weight my optimum dose is supposed to be 2 grams/day.

I took 1000 mg this am with a B Supp, although now i'm now sure if I want to add the latter. Interestingly , I didn't have a headache after this. Who knows. Maybe the past headaches were caused by something else. I had taken IVM yesterday and today, and maybe that helps the headaches.

It is extremely hard/impossible to discern what reaction you are having to a new supplement if you start taking more than one at the same time.

It would be a good idea to keep a diary of what you eat plus what you supplement with and any issues/changes you notice. If you are thiamine deficient and have gut issues then you may have some issues with leaky gut; this would make you sensitive to things you eat.

Yes, I read that he did not recommend Mg, except 2x per week, an extended release form (that might be an Italian brand).

I found that I needed more magnesium. Epsom salts baths were very helpful so I did increase my supplement of magnesium glycinate which really helped my foot and hand spasms. These have resolved pretty much completely now. Ray Peat told me that both thiamine and magnesium are needed to heal the gut.

He also recommended not taking the B supplement or rather one with B6, but mainly b/c it inhibits the peripheral dopamine decarboxylase, which would be a problem for the PD patients taking L-dopa for treatment. Shouldn't be a problem for me, and since I am taking it for GI issues, maybe the B's would be good for me.

I wouldn't assume that B6 shouldn't be a problem for you. I'm still not supplementing with B6. Ray Peat is very conservative about supplementing with B6. I have not been able to find a b-complex that doesn't have too much of B6 in it (according to Ray's dosage suggestions).

It sounds like you have a good endo who works with you, and your GP. That is great.

My endo is a good doctor. He is on the far side of 85 and he took the vaccine. The last time I saw him he wasn't as sharp as he usually is. The GP is still pretty young. I've seen him a couple of times. The first time I saw him, he wanted to give me a prescription for estrogen, which I declined. But he did give me a prescription for Ivermectin so I think there's hope that things will work out with him.

I guess I'm kind of grasping at straws, as I'm hoping to ameliorate GI function - and I wish there was a "GI Dr. Constantine" - b/c I don't know of any forum or any place where people are using this/ or have used this.

Elliot Overton has written articles about thiamine and GI function. Here's one: When SIBO & IBS-Constipation are just unrecognized thiamine deficiency . He has also done some great videos about thiamine. Although he usually recommends TTFD thiamine, I believe what he is saying is pertinent to thiamine hcl too.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSh_5AVXVsg


hormonesmatter.com is an excellent source for info about thiamine. Dr Lonsdale has a lot of articles posted there:

Gastrointestinal Disease and Thiamine - Hormones Matter

Modern research has revealed that the GI tract has a very complex relationship with the rest of the body, especially the brain.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Am I correct in that the low thiamine caused the hypo symptoms you describe above, and that is what you have been getting relief from?

Yes. I believe my hypothyroidism was caused by thiamine deficiency which was caused by heavy metal poisoning which began when I was a child. There's a video with Dr. Chandler Marrs where she mentions that a thiamine deficiency will derail the thyroid. I found that video helpful. I'll post it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkKmiZkiEPI

 

[froot1s]

Yes. I know of people who were the high adrenaline type couldn't gain weight, very thin, struggled with eating and then after a long course of it completely changed their life, less anxious, well fed, good physique.

Hello. I just been reading this topic and found on this message that is exactly about me. Also i struggled with digestion problems. but now thanks god solved it with supplements, also im using vit d, two per day, magnesium, betaine, enzymes, probiotics, everything of it completely, i would say - changed my life, but still i have mid-day fatigue and cannot weight gain, but i have typical "anxious" type, since childhood very thin, etc.
Exactly what you said.
And started to think about cypro. So... what does would you recommend? And, maybe there is something can be used with cypro for additional support? thanks