How Excess Cortisol/serotonin Inhibits Or Lowers Dopamine?

[bruschi11]

Hello all,

I'm 28 and have been on a crazy ride this past year. Long story short, I went from low cortisol majority of last 3 years, to keeping cortisol in range for 6 months, to having high cortisol for the past two months. I worked with CHILLN on allthingsmale forum to increase cortisol with TRT cream and t3/pregnenolone. Finasteride for 15 days caused a hormonal shift in November that pushed me from in range cortisol to high cortisol.

I believe I made things worse going hypothyroid for this past month too as I lowered thyroid supplementation. I have bloodwork to prove all of this so I am not looking to answer questions "how do you know"- I'm just looking for help. I did this to myself. I messed up.

That said, it was apparent to me that I had some minor form of "serotonin syndrome" from all of the above. I took cyproheptadine for 3 days (last dose was 1mg yesterday morning) and that seemed to stop it at least for the time being. I have introduced t3 back into my system (4 doses of 5mcg per day dose). While that's all good and dandy, I'm glad the "serotonin syndrome" has seemed to stop, I believe I am still in a bit of a high cortisol state and can say for sure that something happened to dopamine during this time period. When I apply my testosterone gel- I barely if even feel the nice dopamine sensation I used to received before this happened.

Basically, my question is this. Would a sudden major increase of cortisol/serotonin for 1 or 2 months either systemically lower dopamine or just inhibit the dopamine receptors?

 

[docall18]

Hello all,

I'm 28 and have been on a crazy ride this past year. Long story short, I went from low cortisol majority of last 3 years, to keeping cortisol in range for 6 months, to having high cortisol for the past two months. I worked with CHILLN on allthingsmale forum to increase cortisol with TRT cream and t3/pregnenolone. Finasteride for 15 days caused a hormonal shift in November that pushed me from in range cortisol to high cortisol.

I believe I made things worse going hypothyroid for this past month too as I lowered thyroid supplementation. I have bloodwork to prove all of this so I am not looking to answer questions "how do you know"- I'm just looking for help. I did this to myself. I messed up.

That said, it was apparent to me that I had some minor form of "serotonin syndrome" from all of the above. I took cyproheptadine for 3 days (last dose was 1mg yesterday morning) and that seemed to stop it at least for the time being. I have introduced t3 back into my system (4 doses of 5mcg per day dose). While that's all good and dandy, I'm glad the "serotonin syndrome" has seemed to stop, I believe I am still in a bit of a high cortisol state and can say for sure that something happened to dopamine during this time period. When I apply my testosterone gel- I barely if even feel the nice dopamine sensation I used to received before this happened.

Basically, my question is this. Would a sudden major increase of cortisol/serotonin for 1 or 2 months either systemically lower dopamine or just inhibit the dopamine receptors?

High serotonin lowers dopamine. However it can revert very rapidly IME.

High serotonin/cortisol/prolactin which all go together cause weight gain, poor libido, low motivation, poor sleep.
To reduce the serotonin/cortisol the most usefull supps are: low dose Dhea, thyroid, pregnenolone and aspirin.

Using cypro at night until you stablise is also a good option.

 

[Tarmander]

I'm curious, what was there behind getting to a high cortisol level? Were you just trying to get it back in range from being low and overshot?

 

[bruschi11]

High serotonin lowers dopamine. However it can revert very rapidly IME.

High serotonin/cortisol/prolactin which all go together cause weight gain, poor libido, low motivation, poor sleep.
To reduce the serotonin/cortisol the most usefull supps are: low dose Dhea, thyroid, pregnenolone and aspirin.

Using cypro at night until you stablise is also a good option.

Thank you so much for the response. My thread hadn't been touched for a few days there- figured nobody had anything to say.

@docall18 When you say "it can revert very rapidly IME"- you mean that dopamine can return back to normal rapidly correct? As in serotonin was high, if we can contain that back to normal, we can get dopamine back to normal correct?

The high serotonin/cortisol/prolactin was horrible for a full month. I had to stop working except short hours because literally 2 hours or so of stress caused me to have anxiety/panic attacks that I could not contain where blood pressure would go up to 160/100 and I could not relax. The mind would not stop. I could no sleep without the help of Xanax. Many nights I went with only 2-3 hours of sleep. I was horrible. I had all the symptoms of moderate serotonin syndrome.

I am lucky I work for my family's business and have done well for us for some time so they gave me benefit of doubt.

I am currently using low dose dhea, increased my thyroid back to the normal 20mcg per day (4 doses of 5mcg spread out throughout the day), my systemic PREG levels in blood test were ridiculously high (300 range) so I may just start supplementing with PROG instead, I am actually deathly allergic to aspirin so I may start using Feverfew instead and Lycine.

Currently I am using a bout 3g of tyrosine, 3g of taurine, 3 grams glycine, 5mg creatine monohydrate.
I was using 200-300mg B6 per day but realize I need to lower that substantially.
Also taking vitamins c, d, A in solid doses.

I started Cypro last Saturday, eventually moved to ritanserin last 3 days. Very low dose is all I need of both of these to contain these spirals and keep blood pressure within the 130s. 1mg of ritanserin every 36 hours has done the job. 10mg cypro on day 1 made me feel absolutely awful on day 2. But I learned I just need absolute minimum of these compounds to get me at least functional.

I used lisuride for one 6 drop dose yesterday morning. Since then, I can definitely feel dopamine in my head. I believe it was a good decision getting the dopamine receptors awakened.

Ritanserin and Cypro are absolutely killing libido. Really none of it even after lisuride use. I had a solid amount of libido before using these even as I had these horrible anxiety spirals. I was still having some nocturnal erections if I got enough sleep before ritanserin and cypro.

6 days in, I honestly hate the feeling of being on cypro/ritanserin as I feel numb, depersonalized, lack any type of personality, but understand that I may need them for a few weeks to a few months to help get cortisol, serotonin down and allow adequate stress response.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I look back and see where my biggest mistakes were. Finasteride being #1, but 3 weeks later after doing well for a week, I had a "low cortisol crash" and the guy I was working with Chilln from all things male told me to increase t3. Well, I totally messed up there and believe I caused this all from my error there. I freakin took 100mcg of t3 on back to back days (normal amount 20mcg) then stopped t3 for a whole week. I believe I went hypothyroid killing dopamine and allowing serotonin to take over. 1 month later- here I am at the very beginning week of trying to save my life.

 

[bruschi11]

I'm curious, what was there behind getting to a high cortisol level? Were you just trying to get it back in range from being low and overshot?

@Tarmander I had been battling with low cortisol, below range, for the last 3 years. I am 28 and I would get fatigued very easily for several days after physical activity.

Knowing what I know now, I believe my body was just far too sensitive to ACTH rising during stress- mostly physical stress. Testosterone increases from d-aspartic acid, clomid, and eventually TRT with a gel were by far the best methods for tolerating stress. Seems to me that my body got so sensitive to ACTH rising due to stress, that it would not function normally to wake me up in the morning and give me the normal range cortisol. I was either on the very bottom of range or below range.

t3/preg/t-cream/hcg was an amazing time period for me but I realize now I should have been more careful. Trying finasteride was a disaster and my T3 decisions around December 7th were what caused this horrible "serotonin syndrome" I had to go through.

 

[bruschi11]

Ray Peat looked at my bloodwork and I have always had very very high vitamin B12- he believe SIBO (small intestine bacteria overgrowth) may have been my problem all along causing all of these issues. Now I need to deal with the issues and the SIBO concurrently if that's what we find out I have.

I honestly was a very athletic, smart, gifted kid growing up and believe college did this to me. College lifestyle and diet.

 

[bruschi11]

Alright, I wasn't lying when I said I had a cortisol problem. I will list my cortisol levels. I had serotonin syndrome to a degree for a month. I definitely did and I am so thankful I caught it with cypro last week. Thankful for this site leading to me to this conclusion.

830am 16 (13-24)
12:30am 20!!! (5-10)
530pm 4 (3-8)
10pm 3 (1-4)

I couldn't handle any stress at all in the workplace. I would just feel awful by 2 or 3 oclock after handling the stress pretty well early on with just being exteremely exteremely hyper (noon).

Clearly adrenals would get worn out and couldn't but wanted to respond with more just raising adrenaline as day went on (high adrenaline- blood pressure in 150s to 160s as day went on).

 

[Tarmander]

It sounds like you have a lot going on man. Even being in your shoes I would have a hard time telling what is doing what and how things are interacting with each other.

 

[bruschi11]

I hear ya @Tarmander

After hearing from Ray though with him saying there is absolutely no reason why my b12 is almost double the range (where it has been since I started getting bloodwork 4 years ago) other than most likely SIBO.

- Did some research on a 2014 gut test that show I had low SiGA.

-Low SiGA a major cause for SIBO.

-SIBO a major cause for adrenal problems and elevated serotonin.


Adding above, the last 4 years are starting to make sense. Is it too late to fix everything? Probably not if I do everything right. Pretty much a near death experience or basically an experience where death was better than what I experienced with that "serotonin syndrome" for a full month up until last weekend. I'll be doing everything right.

Luckily I have the family, job, money to do so. Will have my hand held until I get my health back. But curing SIBO seems like what needs to happen and hopeful that can take 3-4 months.

We will see. Looking forward to improvements. The last week has been a major one getting out of that "serotonin syndrome". Got a lot more to go though.

 

[Tarmander]

I hear ya @Tarmander

After hearing from Ray though with him saying there is absolutely no reason why my b12 is almost double the range (where it has been since I started getting bloodwork 4 years ago) other than most likely SIBO.

- Did some research on a 2014 gut test that show I had low SiGA.

-Low SiGA a major cause for SIBO.

-SIBO a major cause for adrenal problems and elevated serotonin.


Adding above, the last 4 years are starting to make sense. Is it too late to fix everything? Probably not if I do everything right. Pretty much a near death experience or basically an experience where death was better than what I experienced with that "serotonin syndrome" for a full month up until last weekend. I'll be doing everything right.

Luckily I have the family, job, money to do so. Will have my hand held until I get my health back. But curing SIBO seems like what needs to happen and hopeful that can take 3-4 months.

We will see. Looking forward to improvements. The last week has been a major one getting out of that "serotonin syndrome". Got a lot more to go though.

Hey man, did you ever get your health reset from the high cortisol experiment?

 

[ddjd]

Hey man, did you ever get your health reset from the high cortisol experiment?

lets be honest, its the finasteride that messed him up here. theres no doubt about it

 

[ddjd]

I hear ya @Tarmander

After hearing from Ray though with him saying there is absolutely no reason why my b12 is almost double the range (where it has been since I started getting bloodwork 4 years ago) other than most likely SIBO.

- Did some research on a 2014 gut test that show I had low SiGA.

-Low SiGA a major cause for SIBO.

-SIBO a major cause for adrenal problems and elevated serotonin.


Adding above, the last 4 years are starting to make sense. Is it too late to fix everything? Probably not if I do everything right. Pretty much a near death experience or basically an experience where death was better than what I experienced with that "serotonin syndrome" for a full month up until last weekend. I'll be doing everything right.

Luckily I have the family, job, money to do so. Will have my hand held until I get my health back. But curing SIBO seems like what needs to happen and hopeful that can take 3-4 months.

We will see. Looking forward to improvements. The last week has been a major one getting out of that "serotonin syndrome". Got a lot more to go though.

are you still in touch with Chilln?

 

[Tarmander]

lets be honest, its the finasteride that messed him up here. theres no doubt about it

This guy is really active on hackstasis, dont think he posts here anymore.

 

[ddjd]

This guy is really active on hackstasis, dont think he posts here anymore.

Thanks. I'll look him up. Same username?

 

[Tarmander]

Thanks. I'll look him up. Same username?

similar yeah

 

[bruschi11]

Hey man, did you ever get your health reset from the high cortisol experiment?

Hey man, thanks for trying to help way back when. 3 years.. wow. Can't believe this whirlwind but here we are 3 years later and Peat was onto something up above. But it needed far more serious intervention than just looking at SIBO. Took me until now to figure it all out it seems.

I recovered significantly between July 2017 and June 2018. It began with a heavy round of antibiotics for Lyme disease accompanied by heavy antidepressant mirtazapine. Cyproheptadine did a decent job holding my brain in place, found out here that mirtazapine was just a much stronger version and thank god for that as I was able to fight Lyme for a couple months while on the mirtaz.

I did Laser, rife machine, herbs, sauna, coffee enemas, juicing, cold showers and a 2 week juice fast for Lyme post antibiotics between August and September 2017. After the juice fast I was able to drop the mirtazapine- I couldn't believe it. Cried my eyes out that after 9 months my brain was finally somewhat ok. Still bad sexual issues, anhedonia, cfs, lots of stuff going on then... but I was now able to fight drugless.

A 21 day water fast 2 months later pulled me out of CFS. Still had PFS... benefitted from hackstasis teachings, exercise, diet, liver flushes, near infrared lamp, sauna, 1 days fasts (essentially the electrolytes protocol over there) and was nearly completely cured before a ski accident in late February 2018.

I was finally back on my feet by May 2018... unfortunately I took a bad bad turn. Drank Hydrogen Water for two months... probably the worst thing we've worked with over on hackstasis as the stuff hurt a few people, nobody really benefitted from it much. I then got stuck for 14 months with major gut issues leading to all sorts of brain issues, Lyme came back.

I was finally able to get my gut into a decent enough place by August of 2019 after a 25 day water fast. A month after the fast- nutritional balancing was a godsend that really got me on my feet. The prior 14 months- I tried all the stuff that helped me in late 2017... fasting, coffee enemas, juicing, liver flushes, herbs. Nothing got me out of it- I was stuck. Nutritional balancing pulled me out of a major long term hole.

I was not well though. I was doing ok beginning this past August. But not well. Still in CFS. Gut issues improved but still relevant. Finally in October I started messing with mega b2 dosing like 250mg every other day while treating SIBO with herbs. I showed both a major b2 deficiency and SIBO in my latest Nutreval testing- that's why I tried. I then had had a brilliant week or so in early November.

Because of my success with b2, someone contacted me about b12oils.com/rnb.htm . I am currently having lots of success with this protocol. And several others are having success on hackstasis with this. Some are incorporating with nutritional balancing (like myself), some are just taking a multivitamin w/b2, some are just taking the co-factors.

We are experiementing, but its certainly something special.

My belief is this entire pathway certainly controls the thyroid, SIBO (b2 cleans SIBO toxins- aldehydes, endotxoins) , amongst so many other things. The pathway looks like this b2--> FNM -->FAD. FNM activates B6 when magnesium is sufficient so magnesium baths have been incredible for me. B6 is gaba and my pfs sexual symptoms improve rapidly when b2/FNM and magnesium are sufficient. FAD goes to B12... we all know how important b12 is for energy.

Its an incredible finding we have here. And I hope this work makes it over to this forum. Its funny all this time has passed and this year I started incorporating some of Peat's work into my recovery. I'm now a fast oxidizer based on hair tests so eating somewhat Peatarian with a lot of dairy currently. I've used quite a bit of cyproheptadine the past 3 or so months for sleep when experimenting goes wrong.

Crazy Peat nailed it on the head with SIBO/ elevated B12 connection. I had zero rememberance of this until today seeing this. So shocked I found this post so I had to give a little recap.

 

[Tarmander]

Hey man, thanks for trying to help way back when. 3 years.. wow. Can't believe this whirlwind but here we are 3 years later and Peat was onto something up above. But it needed far more serious intervention than just looking at SIBO. Took me until now to figure it all out it seems.

I recovered significantly between July 2017 and June 2018. It began with a heavy round of antibiotics for Lyme disease accompanied by heavy antidepressant mirtazapine. Cyproheptadine did a decent job holding my brain in place, found out here that mirtazapine was just a much stronger version and thank god for that as I was able to fight Lyme for a couple months while on the mirtaz.

I did Laser, rife machine, herbs, sauna, coffee enemas, juicing, cold showers and a 2 week juice fast for Lyme post antibiotics between August and September 2017. After the juice fast I was able to drop the mirtazapine- I couldn't believe it. Cried my eyes out that after 9 months my brain was finally somewhat ok. Still bad sexual issues, anhedonia, cfs, lots of stuff going on then... but I was now able to fight drugless.

A 21 day water fast 2 months later pulled me out of CFS. Still had PFS... benefitted from hackstasis teachings, exercise, diet, liver flushes, near infrared lamp, sauna, 1 days fasts (essentially the electrolytes protocol over there) and was nearly completely cured before a ski accident in late February 2018.

I was finally back on my feet by May 2018... unfortunately I took a bad bad turn. Drank Hydrogen Water for two months... probably the worst thing we've worked with over on hackstasis as the stuff hurt a few people, nobody really benefitted from it much. I then got stuck for 14 months with major gut issues leading to all sorts of brain issues, Lyme came back.

I was finally able to get my gut into a decent enough place by August of 2019 after a 25 day water fast. A month after the fast- nutritional balancing was a godsend that really got me on my feet. The prior 14 months- I tried all the stuff that helped me in late 2017... fasting, coffee enemas, juicing, liver flushes, herbs. Nothing got me out of it- I was stuck. Nutritional balancing pulled me out of a major long term hole.

I was not well though. I was doing ok beginning this past August. But not well. Still in CFS. Gut issues improved but still relevant. Finally in October I started messing with mega b2 dosing like 250mg every other day while treating SIBO with herbs. I showed both a major b2 deficiency and SIBO in my latest Nutreval testing- that's why I tried. I then had had a brilliant week or so in early November.

Because of my success with b2, someone contacted me about b12oils.com/rnb.htm . I am currently having lots of success with this protocol. And several others are having success on hackstasis with this. Some are incorporating with nutritional balancing (like myself), some are just taking a multivitamin w/b2, some are just taking the co-factors.

We are experiementing, but its certainly something special.

My belief is this entire pathway certainly controls the thyroid, SIBO (b2 cleans SIBO toxins- aldehydes, endotxoins) , amongst so many other things. The pathway looks like this b2--> FNM -->FAD. FNM activates B6 when magnesium is sufficient so magnesium baths have been incredible for me. B6 is gaba and my pfs sexual symptoms improve rapidly when b2/FNM and magnesium are sufficient. FAD goes to B12... we all know how important b12 is for energy.

Its an incredible finding we have here. And I hope this work makes it over to this forum. Its funny all this time has passed and this year I started incorporating some of Peat's work into my recovery. I'm now a fast oxidizer based on hair tests so eating somewhat Peatarian with a lot of dairy currently. I've used quite a bit of cyproheptadine the past 3 or so months for sleep when experimenting goes wrong.

Crazy Peat nailed it on the head with SIBO/ elevated B12 connection. I had zero rememberance of this until today seeing this. So shocked I found this post so I had to give a little recap.

Man sounds like you have been through the ringer, but are on the right track.

Reading your story, I see a lot of what Ken Lassesen talks about at cfsremission.com. He makes a really strong case that CFS is gut bacteria based almost entirely with a few genetic weaknesses thrown in. 25 day fasts would absolutely change your gut bacteria and starve a lot of those pathogens.

If you ever get deep into CFS again, I would be curious if you could resolve your issues with a less drastic protocol then long fasts like that.

Check out a summary here: Change Agents: Ken Lassesen on Prescription and Herbal Antibiotics to Alter the Gut Flora in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - Health Rising

You may also want to check out the Mutaflor thread. I have dealt personally with some CFS in the past, been totally exercise intollerant, and found a lot of gains from messing around with gut bacteria, but in a very targeted way. If you take the wrong antibiotic substances, you can basically sink yourself even deeper in the hole.

 

[bruschi11]

Man sounds like you have been through the ringer, but are on the right track.

Reading your story, I see a lot of what Ken Lassesen talks about at cfsremission.com. He makes a really strong case that CFS is gut bacteria based almost entirely with a few genetic weaknesses thrown in. 25 day fasts would absolutely change your gut bacteria and starve a lot of those pathogens.

If you ever get deep into CFS again, I would be curious if you could resolve your issues with a less drastic protocol then long fasts like that.

Check out a summary here: Change Agents: Ken Lassesen on Prescription and Herbal Antibiotics to Alter the Gut Flora in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - Health Rising

You may also want to check out the Mutaflor thread. I have dealt personally with some CFS in the past, been totally exercise intollerant, and found a lot of gains from messing around with gut bacteria, but in a very targeted way. If you take the wrong antibiotic substances, you can basically sink yourself even deeper in the hole.

Yes, the fasting was good. The only fast though that was incredible was November 2017- but I was in a decent place from the work I'd put in the prior 3 months. My blood work before that fast showed b12 in range- so I think I somehow fixed the b2 deficiency prior to that fast.

The fast this past summer was good but not anywhere nearly as good as the first one. I was still screwed, still CFS, still a lottt of issues. Nutritional balancing got me going a month latter. I had so many deficiencies on my Nutreval testing so it made sense. Specifically b2, zinc, magnesium.

I actually benefitted strongly by probiotic enemas in late 2017, early 2018 when I was in CFS remission. So the Mutaflor thread is interesting to me. I used herbal antibiotics quite well in late 2019.

I think poor gut bacteria stinks but more importantly the endotoxins are the killers. If you have a lot of deficiencies, your body isn't going to be able to handle the endotoxins and your brain essentially gets poisoned by them.

Ya I doubt I need the drastic fasting anymore. Might do a shorter one coming up like 5 days when I'm ready to get off the nutrition for a bit.