Clues For Issues With Gelatin

[Amazoniac]

For those who have struggled with gelatin or even hydrolyzed collagen in the past, this study might offer some clues regarding fermentation of cartilage from connective tissue. Also, how having poor metabolism and gut health can trigger present infections by adding fermentable substrate.
I don't know if pressure cooking is enough to breakdown those compounds but simmering for a long time is probably not (add to that the issue with glutamates, etc).

http://dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/h ... 012-46.pdf

"Crude protein [in feces] was greatest (P < 0.05) for collagen, followed by rabbit hair, casein, rabbit skin, and chicken (Gallus gallus domesticus) cartilage. Moderate amounts of CP were found in glucosamine-chondroitin, glucosamine, and rabbit bone, whereas CP was not detected in the FOS and cellulose substrates."
Which indicates undigested (and with greater chances of being fermented)?

"Nitrogen-free extract was greatest in FOS, high in glucosamine-chondroitin and glucosamine, moderate in cartilage, and low in all other substrates."
Does this indicates protein utilization?

"The greatest total SCFA production was recorded for FOS (P < 0.05), followed by collagen, casein, and glucosamine (P < 0.05). The FOS and collagen showed comparable acetate production. [highlight=yellow]Collagen not only had a high production of total SCFA but also resulted in a greater acetate to propionate ratio relative to all other substrates[/highlight] (8.41:1 for collagen and 1.67:1−2.97:1 for other substrates). Chicken cartilage and glucosamine-chondroitin produced similar total SCFA production, which was moderate compared with FOS (P < 0.05)."

"As far as we know, the present study showed for the fi rst time that specifi c components in animal tissues have the ability to contribute to intestinal microbial fermentation in the cheetah, and most probably in other felids as well."

"[...]As such, our fi ndings indicated the need to account for fermentable compounds from animal origin in the diet of carnivores and may provide new insights into promoting intestinal health."

"Type 1 collagen is present in bone tissues, tendons, ligaments, and skin, and is the most abundant collagen in the body (Asghar and Henrickson, 1982). Collagen differs from most proteins as it is a complex mesh of fibrils, which are essentially compact molecular clumps. Although collagen is generally regarded as a protein, it is known that glucose and galactose are covalently bound and form an integral part of the collagen protein structure in vertebrate tissues (Asghar and Henrickson, 1982). Moreover, connective tissue contains substantial concentrations of glycosaminoglycans, especially cartilage. Connective tissue may, therefore, make an important contribution to the carbohydrate fraction of the diet of a carnivore besides hepatic glycogen. [highlight=yellow]If not digested enzymatically in the small intestine, these compounds will provide protein and carbohydrate substrates to the large intestinal microbiota.[/highlight]"

"Although only moderate in its NFE [lacking nitrogen] content, chicken cartilage resulted in the greatest Rmax [rate of gas production] value, which was achieved in a relatively short period of time (Tmax = 1.2 h). This indicates that specific bacteria, capable of utilizing cartilage components in a more efficient manner than other substrates, were present in the inoculum insufficient concentration to elicit almost immediate fermentation."

"Animal-derived substrates low in carbohydrates and OMCV also showed considerable SCFA production. Despite the absence of NFE, concentrations of total SCFA for collagen were second greatest of all tested substrates, indicating that substantial fermentation took place."

"Taking gas production kinetics as well as SCFA production into account, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate were highly fermentable, whereas casein, chicken cartilage, and collagen were only moderately fermentable compared with the positive control (FOS)."

"Although protein fermentation also produces acetate, butyrate, and to a lesser extent, propionate (Macfarlane et al., 1992), the branched-chain fatty acids, as part of the intestinal SCFA, mainly originate from protein fermentation (Rasmussen et al., 1988)."

 

[ecstatichamster]

this seems to solve a mystery to me, how so many report here that gelatin gives them histamine type symptoms.

Any protein in the bowel is probably not a good idea. But I wonder why gelatin might cause this more than say eating muscle meat?

 

[Amazoniac]

Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth - http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/0016-5085(81)90150-5/pdf

The usual clinical manifestations include anemia, malabsorption, weight loss, vitamin deficiencies, and diarrhea. Vitamin B12 absorption, as measured by the Schilling test, is abnormal and remains abnormal with added intrinsic factor. Serum folate levels are normal or high, the latter a consequence of folic acid elaboration by intestinal bacteria. Weight loss is common with the blind-loop syndrome and is usually accompanied by steatorrhea. Fecal fat loss averages 10-30 g/day but may occasionally be as high as 60-70 g/day. Steatorrhea is associated with malabsorption of fat soluble vitamins, and the resultant deficiency of vitamins A, D, and K may be manifest by night blindness, osteomalacia, and bleeding disorders. Hypoproteinemia is common, and occasionally weight loss, protein deficiency, and malnutrition may be so severe as to mimic the cachexia of malignancy (1,2).
Steotorrhea. Normally, the bile salts found in the upper small bowel are the taurine and glycine conjugates of cholic, deoxycholic, and chenic acid. They function as detergents to incorporate the products of lipolysis, fatty acids, and monoglyceride into micelles which permit their absorption by the intestinal mucosa. Micelle formation occurs only in the presence of an adequate concentration of conjugated bile salts. In the blind-loop syndrome, bacteria resident in the proximal small bowel, particularly anaerobic bacteria, deconjugate bile salts to form free bile acids. Free bile acids are rarely demonstrated in the small intestine of normal persons but are frequently found in persons with bacterial overgrowth (17,18). Elimination of the deconjugating microflora is associated with the disappearance of these free bile acids. Bile salt deconjugation occurring in the proximal small intestine could interfere with normal fat absorption in two ways. Free bile acid concentrations could reach levels which are toxic to mucosal cells or the conjugated bile salt concentration could fall below the critical concentration essential for effective micelle formation. Ample evidence supports either mechanism. Neither alone can currently explain the fat malabsorption seen in all patients with the blind-loop syndrome. For a detailed discussion of the pathophysiology of steatorrhea in the blindloop syndrome, the interested reader is referred to several recent reviews (l-4).
Mucosal Damage. Although bacterial alteration of bile salt metabolism is an important explanation for steatorrhea, it does not explain why some patients continue to have absorptive defects despite elimination of the abnormal flora and restoration of normal bile salt metabolism (4). Undoubtedly, there are other contributing factors. One might be that the small intestinal mucosa is morphologically and functionally damaged in the blind-loop syndrome (19-21). Recent work has demonstrated light- and electron-microscopic abnormalities in both the clinical and experimental blind-loop syndromes (19-21). The lesion may be patchy in distribution and is characterized by blunting and broadening of villi and an increase in the number of mononuclear cells within the lamina propria. On rare occasion, the lesion can be severe and resemble that seen in gluten-sensitive enteropathy.

 

[Amazoniac]

post 117623 this seems to solve a mystery to me, how so many report here that gelatin gives them histamine type symptoms.

Any protein in the bowel is probably not a good idea. But I wonder why gelatin might cause this more than say eating muscle meat?

Read the highlighted quote on GAGs, and it's probably even worse for those with bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine..

 

[ecstatichamster]

I wonder if folks having this problem may benefit from apple cider vinegar with meals? Or Betaine Hcl.

 

[James IV]

Lowering protein overall is probably beneficial to most. I believe if sufficient carbs and fats are being consumed, protein requirements are very low. Also, consuming gelatin in the context of a mixed meal of solid food, rather than mixed with milk/juice, should be beneficial in digestion and absorbtion.

 

[ecstatichamster]

some people here have reported cooking gelatin and setting it and eating it that way worked much better for them.

This is more real to me. Bone broth sets into jelly consistency and we eat the jelly.

Do people who have trouble with powdered gelatin have trouble with bone broth?

 

[jyb]

That's for a cheetah eating raw pieces of meat, but does it apply to a human drinking bone broth or gelatin powder? That's as readily digestible as it gets.

 

[Amazoniac]

post 117648 That's for a cheetah eating raw pieces of meat, but does it apply to a human drinking bone broth or gelatin powder? That's as readily digestible as it gets.

Regarding the extrapolation to humans, I guess that those compounds are still present, I'm not sure how pressure cooking affect those though. But the reason of posting this is to point that even collagen has the potential to ferment. If someone has metabolic problems, poor digestion and gut health; it can give the person the same problems experienced with plant fibers..

 

[Amazoniac]

How to Cook/Prepare Bone Broth? | Page 2 | Ray Peat Forum

 

[Amazoniac]

A simple question: if resistant starch is problematic, especially in people with digestive problems, because as it refrigerates, it forms a structure that is more complex and difficult to digest; why that cannot happen with gelatin following the same principle? For the same reason that it sets rigid..

 

[EIRE24]

Lowering protein overall is probably beneficial to most. I believe if sufficient carbs and fats are being consumed, protein requirements are very low. Also, consuming gelatin in the context of a mixed meal of solid food, rather than mixed with milk/juice, should be beneficial in digestion and absorbtion.

Why would you say that lowering protein would be beneficial to most? I'm asking because I'm not sure for my own health if I should increase protein or lower it? I thought that protein was essential in meals especially to produce stomach acid? Every "health" person these days seem to consume lots of protein in their diets and look to be in good health?

 

[ecstatichamster]

A simple question: if resistant starch is problematic, especially in people with digestive problems, because as it refrigerates, it forms a structure that is more complex and difficult to digest; why that cannot happen with gelatin following the same principle? For the same reason that it sets rigid..

Starch ferments more easily than protein does. Protein hits the HCl in the stomach and begins breaking down into small chains, peptides, and these are readily taken into the body through the intestines. The starch is designed to move through to the bowel where it should ferment there and release more bio-available short chain fatty acids that help fuel the gut itself, and also into glucose that is absorbed into the body.

 

[James IV]

Why would you say that lowering protein would be beneficial to most? I'm asking because I'm not sure for my own health if I should increase protein or lower it? I thought that protein was essential in meals especially to produce stomach acid? Every "health" person these days seem to consume lots of protein in their diets and look to be in good health?

I've changed my thoughts on this since this post. I think balancing calcium/phosphate and amino acids is likely more important than total protein.

 

[Amazoniac]

In case someone finds this review available in the future, let me know..
Characteristics of collagen's material bifidogenic properties

 

[Amazoniac]

A fair comparison between collagenous cuts and commercial gelatin would require similar conditions, yet this is not what happens. The cuts are usually consumed concentrated as part of a dense meal, or as broth, salted and warm; gelatin products are consumed cold and diluted in fruit juice. The combination is not a problem, but if you're struggling with it, I would try to mimic the traditional way to find out if it makes a difference. Hydrated to the desired consistency with seasoned broth (leaves, allium family, and so on), salted to taste and warmed up. If this doesn't work, you can try to add some form of killcium (to distract the body with something worse so that the first toxin appears weak), and include spices or diced produce like you've learn'd at Cordon Bleu.

It's possible to make it weaker by combining with citrus peel marmade, doesn't have to be orange, there are other kinds such as tangerine, lemon and lime.

If nothing works, you can turn destructive and prepare a compact mass of indigestible gelatin by dropping iodine on it, the pebble should release it slowly as bacteria attempt to feast, it's a challenge for them.

 

[Amazoniac]

Her comprehensive work (that includes the one from the original post):
- Animal Fibre: A Key Factor for Gastrointestinal Health in an Obligate Carnivore: the Cheetah (!)

@shine