Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - Advice

[daniel1286]

Hi guys,

My endo (uk based) is trying to push me down the route of that I have CFS

Do you have any advice for me in this situ?

I have an enflamed thyroid, fatty liver, psoriasis and have taken finasteride

Where do peaters stand on CFS? I read somewhere that Peat simply felt it was a disfucntion of the thyroid???

Thanks in advance
Daniel

 

[HDD]

Hi guys,

My endo (uk based) is trying to push me down the route of that I have CFS

Do you have any advice for me in this situ?

I have an enflamed thyroid, fatty liver, psoriasis and have taken finasteride

Where do peaters stand on CFS? I read somewhere that Peat simply felt it was a disfucntion of the thyroid???

Thanks in advance
Daniel

Your Own Health And Fitness: Thyroid/Progesterone And Diet
CALLER: Yeah, I have had chronic fatigue syndrome for 15 years Do you have any information that might help me?

RAY PEAT: Yeah, very often it starts with either thyroid or beans in the diet.

RAY PEAT: Beans are very common dietary factor of – they contain antigens that makes them a more complex toxin that cause the liver and the intestine and the thyroid to malfunction and you can break the cycle sometimes just with diet but usually thyroid is an important thing to consider.

CALLER: I wasn’t listening to the beginning of show, so I don’t know whether you spoke about this but when you’re talking about treating low thyroid, how do you treat it?

RAY PEAT: It depends upon where you're starting from. Sometimes four ounces of orange juice every hour through the day for several days is all it takes to activate the thyroid. Sometimes it takes adding eggs or milk to the diet.

RAY PEAT: Yeah, depending on what the limiting factor is in your thyroid problem. Sometimes one dose of progesterone can break a person out of the cycle. Sometimes dropping out vegetable oils or beans or nuts or seeds is all it takes.

N: Switching to a higher protein diet without those items in it and low grain too the grain is irritating as well.

 

[GAF]

B2 -- 400mg once or twice a day and eat food.

 

[mosaic01]

I've been through this. Every case is individual. CFS is a set of unspecific symptoms related to Thyroid function, ATP Production and Immune function. Most of the time it is caused by the dysfunction of very basic metabolic pathways, but it's not always clear wich one. But probably not by superficial things like a vitamin deficiency.

Best way is to go from the general layers of metabolism (inflammation, infections, co2, thyroid, red light) to the more specific ones (single vitamins, etc.). The basic philosophy behind this is that the body does not respond when manipulating lower layers of control before the higher layers are not corrected. For example when you breath out CO2 at night, it is actually counterproductive to take thyroid hormones, because your body actually keeps thyroid hormone down to protect against low co2- induced oxidation which causes systemic inflammation and destruction.

My first advice is to tape your mouth at night with medical tape, especially if you know you breath with the mouth open. Every night, consistently. Low CO2 will cause a downstream cascade of problems.

Second, keep inflammation as low as possible, otherwise your body will do everything to keep energy production down - even if you take certain hormones. Anti-inflammatory substances are things like Aspirin, Niacinamide, Vitamin E, Progesterone, maybe herbs. Look out for inflammatory sites like teeth infections.

Third, look at chronic infections wich manipulate the body into keeping ATP production down (Bacteria, Fungus, viruses) and fight them with herbs and other natural substances that are effective against parasites (for example monolaurin, cascara sagrada and inosine against viruses).

An inflamed intestine leads to an inflamed liver. Anti-Parasitic protocols alongside with Cascara Sagrada keeps the intestine clean, and supports the immune system and systemic energy production. Alongside, look at the products by RedLightMan (he's in the UK) and use the red light device 1-2 minutes a few times per week on your thyroid and other organs where hormones are produced. Red Light is also good for psorioasis.

Additionally I also used drugs like penicillin, fluconazole, pyrantel, aciclovir, cyproheptadine, doxycycline and minocycline under professional supervision to recover.

 

[Dobbler]

I've been through this. Every case is individual. CFS is a set of unspecific symptoms related to Thyroid function, ATP Production and Immune function. Most of the time it is caused by the dysfunction of very basic metabolic pathways, but it's not always clear wich one. But probably not by superficial things like a vitamin deficiency.

Best way is to go from the general layers of metabolism (inflammation, infections, co2, thyroid, red light) to the more specific ones (single vitamins, etc.). The basic philosophy behind this is that the body does not respond when manipulating lower layers of control before the higher layers are not corrected. For example when you breath out CO2 at night, it is actually counterproductive to take thyroid hormones, because your body actually keeps thyroid hormone down to protect against low co2- induced oxidation which causes systemic inflammation and destruction.

My first advice is to tape your mouth at night with medical tape, especially if you know you breath with the mouth open. Every night, consistently. Low CO2 will cause a downstream cascade of problems.

Second, keep inflammation as low as possible, otherwise your body will do everything to keep energy production down - even if you take certain hormones. Anti-inflammatory substances are things like Aspirin, Niacinamide, Vitamin E, Progesterone, maybe herbs. Look out for inflammatory sites like teeth infections.

Third, look at chronic infections wich manipulate the body into keeping ATP production down (Bacteria, Fungus, viruses) and fight them with herbs and other natural substances that are effective against parasites (for example monolaurin, cascara sagrada and inosine against viruses).

An inflamed intestine leads to an inflamed liver. Anti-Parasitic protocols alongside with Cascara Sagrada keeps the intestine clean, and supports the immune system and systemic energy production. Alongside, look at the products by RedLightMan (he's in the UK) and use the red light device 1-2 minutes a few times per week on your thyroid and other organs where hormones are produced. Red Light is also good for psorioasis.

Additionally I also used drugs like penicillin, fluconazole, pyrantel, aciclovir, cyproheptadine, doxycycline and minocycline under professional supervision to recover.

That makes alot of sense. Would you say introducing thyroid hormone very slowly with low dosages to increase digestive juices and motility to be beneficial even if there is alot of inflammation in the intestines?

 

[daniel1286]

Mosiac what was your timeline for recovery? Where you under guidance from any UK endos?

 

[mosaic01]

@daniel1286: The only endo I visited told me I'm in perfect health when I felt like I was dying any minute.

I'm in Germany and it took me 5 years to get from bedridden to more or less functional. I'm still not healthy, I'm also suffering from adrenal insufficiency.

From that 5 years I was in a very bad state for the first 4 years. I had tried every possible supplement. It took me that long to figure out that simply breathing with an open mouth was the root problem. I couldn't believe it's that simple. Within a few months I was able to reduce my cortisone dose by 80%. At that time I was already working on infections and inflammation with an infectiologist who works mostly with CFS patients..

Fighting chronic inflammation/infections combined with Red Light and taping my mouth saved my life. The problem is that few professionals know to diagnose and treat properly. Healing is an art that died with the advent of the pharmaceutical companies.

Do you have help from family members?

When you find the cause you can probably get reasonably healthy within months, but its tricky to find it. The problem is that it is not a disease that can be treated mechanically, but it is a body response to overwhelming biological stress, and that stress can have many faces.

@Dobbler: From personal experience I would say thyroid hormone is a double-edged sword because it overrides so many other feedback mechanisms, so it is not possible to diagnose such things without knowing you. But when someone takes it, it should be taken for a few months, consistently, to make the body adapt. When Broda Barnes started prescribing thyroid hormones people were in much better health generally.

Nowadays people are chronically infected, and have a chronic low immune function due to epigenetic and environmental factors. The problem is exaggerated because doctors are prescribing antibiotics only for a few days, sometimes even tell people to just wait and do nothing. The CFS epidemic started in the 1970s after years of careless antibiotics use, which shifted the flora towards Candida and parasites. Even before this epidemic, Broda Barnes realized that almost all of his patients had developed Adrenal Insufficiency from the year long hypothyroidism. The problem got worse during the last decades, so there is a growing amount of people who cannot tolerate thyroid hormones at all. For sick people it is very important to prepare the environment in such a way that thyroid hormones can be tolerated, especially if there is no supervision.

It's probably wiser to first do everything that can be done to help make the body produce it's own hormones. And most inflammation in the intestines can be greatly reduced with substances that work directly in the intestines. In general using several substances at the same time increases the chance of breaking the viscous cycle. I had positive results from using antibiotics, sodium proprionate, Candida fighting herbs, Aspirin, Niacinamide and Cascara.

I would argue hormones should always be the last resort, because these are signaling substances that are produced in response to a healthy state. From my personal experience I think progesterone and pregnenolone are the easiest hormones.

Have you tried stimulating the thyroid with 830nm infrared light? This is probably way more effective than taking the hormones directly.

 

[marsaday]

Category:Fatigue - DoctorMyhill

Dr Myhill in the UK is doing a lot of research into this area. Her website gives out a lot of info.

 

[daniel1286]

Its really hard to know where to turn next - my mum and my sister are both hypothyroid

I personally believe I am too - but they are pushing me down the CFS route

 

[marsaday]

Pretty simple solution, trial out some T4 and see what happens. I was 21 when i became ill and after one yr they said i had depression. I took anti d's (one per day) pretty much for the next 15 yrs. When i was mid 30's trying for a baby i found out i had poor sperm. So did some more research and thyroid popped up. I got my results and they weren't bad but i had low T4 levels. So i decided to try some thyroid meds and guess what i became much better.

I stopped the anti D immediately and i have gotten my health back over the last 7 yrs. It was not a case of getting back to full health immediately, but i got a lot better. I have slowly worked on my metabolism and now in my mid 40's i am much fitter, healthier than as was aged 21.

I don't know your age, but the longer you leave conditions like this to tick away the longer it takes to reignite the metabolism. There is a lot of info out there to look at: diet, vitamins and minerals, hormones, type of exercise. It has to be a whole system thing though, but without the key hormones you won't make that much progress. Have you had any blood tests done and do you have the results ?

 

[daniel1286]

tsh 2.58


here are my T3 and T4 results from last year


T4 16.4 (11-24pmol)

T3 4.3 (3.90-6.80pmol)

Antibodies have come back normal

What would you do in my shoes?

 

[marsaday]

I have read your other info on other threads. You have approached this from a testosterone point of view i think. Caused by the balding stuff you were taking. I know this stuff damages peoples metabolisms, but i don't know that much about this topic. However i do know a lot about thyroid.

I was also super fit aged 21 and my body crashed in my final yr at uni. I was given some steroids (prob pred) for my breathing as i wasn't able to breath anymore. I played football, but just couldn't breath. Anyway the pred reset everything in one day and i only took them for 4 days. I did my exams and all was ok for 2 weeks, then i slumped again.

For the next 16 yrs i searched for what was wrong, but i wasnt depressed, but the anti depressant probably helped with cortisol generation which will have been a help.

Anyway what i have learnt is this. Thyroid will increase testosterone by 20-25% approx. My results went from 15 to 21 nmol. I am now back around 15, but i am getting older and i have no erection issues. In fact my desire is stronger at this time in my life. So 15 for me is fine it seems at the moment. I don't know my oestrogen numbers though as not had them done before.

Your FSH is high like mine is at 9.2. This means your brain is shouting at your testicles to make more sperm. My FSH has stayed high even though thyroid has improved the movement and speed of my sperm, but i don't make a huge amount. Prob about 10m per ml. A normal amount is about 50m and WHO say lower than 20m per ML is indicative of low fertility. So you have this issue and a sperm test would really help understand your overall health profile. I wish i had done one when i was young and not waited until we tried for a baby. The sperm measurement could also be a good one to help work out if you get your health back as well. I am sure one day this will be important.

Your thyroid result is ok for the FT4 at 16, but the FT3 is lower in the range. Many healthy folk have mid teen Ft4 numbers and then have a higher FT3 figure, say from 5 upwards. This seems pretty typical.

So you want to see what a little more T3 will do to you. First i would start eating some brazil nuts per day. 1 is fine. They contain selenium and this mineral improves conversion. I prefer this option of supps.

You have the option of trying T4 or T3 and i always say go for T4 first. You may find a higher Ft4 figure will supply more T3 and so you might get the FT3 into the 5 area. A simple 25mcg of T4 could be worth looking at here. Your Ft4 is likely to get up to 18 and probably 20 if you increase to 50mcg. However always start ow and increase slowly. With T4 you need to wait 4 weeks to let new meds build up in the blood. My body loved T4 when i first took it and i knew this is what i needed on my first day. So if you get a good reaction this is a great indicator you are missing this hormone.

If you go down the T4 route first you will need bloods after 4 weeks.

T3: This is a more immediate acting hormone and you can blood tested much quicker. It is also more damaging on people who have adrenal damage (low adrenal function). T4 is softer acting on the adrenals and so can be more beneficial for CF patients. However many people need both hormones and i do as well. However, many people over use T3 and go for much bigger doses than the body needs. always start very low and see how you get on. I use 3mcg per day of T3 !!!

If you get the 25mcg T3 tablets on the net you will cut them in 1/8th sizes which is approx 3mcg. You use a stanly blade to do this. See how you react to 3mcg T3 and then take it from there increasing by 3mcg added in the PM later on (say after 1 week).

Timing of the thyroid meds is very important and often over looked. We make our thyroid when we go to sleep, in the second half of the night we make cortisol. If the thyroid is low, cortisol production will be low. So we can repair this natural cycle by providing the thyroid at bedtime and this will help make more cortisol in the later part of the night. Paul robinson in the UK has written a book about using T3 to boost cortisol levels and it is called the circadian T3 method. Basically you wake 4 h's before official wake up and provide some T3. This really helps generate more cortisol for the next day. He has seen a 300% jump in cortisol. I have found it works, but am actually taking the T3 at bedtime. I may do some more experimentation with this in the future.

You cannot exercise when your body is knackered. This is part of the problem as well i think.

Any questions ask away. My back is injured at mo so really bored having to sit at home.

 

[daniel1286]

Mars thank you for your reply - really means alot that you take time to go into such detail

Is there any specific way you recommend to get sperm tested (im in UK by the way) is there an online way of doing this?

Im having more Thyroid tests next week, an ultrasound has confirmed it is inflamed and moth eaten but those T4 / T3 results are over a year old

I will see where my endo takes it from there, if not I will likley go down the self medicating route tbh

 

[daniel1286]

Ive also noticed my body temps are not getting upto 37 degrees at all at the moment

 

[marsaday]

The NHS if you are trying for a baby, but i doubt you will be. There are private fertility clinics and Care fertility UK is the biggest and we had a bay through them. I imagine you could get a test done with them, but not sure of cost. I am actually wanting to see how my sperm are doing now and it has been at the back of the mind to get tested myself, but just haven't had the time at the mo. We may go for another baby next yr so i imagine i will just do it all through Care.

It will be good to see the new thyroid results as these will give better clues.

Hopefully your endo will not fob you off with the depression tag as they do to so many people. If he says CFS then it has now been show this IS a physical issue and not a mental one. It just means more of your system has shut down than say having a basic under active thyroid. The Dr Myhill website is great. She has lots of vids on utube and is helping many people get better, but i don't think she is taking on new patients. Another thing i forgot to mention is the great properties of progesterone for men. I use it and it has really improved my health and thyroid health. I use 6mg per day. It is a ray peat product called ProgestE. Costs about £35 and last over 2 yrs. You can get it from an online store in sheffield if you want to try it. Certainly worth a look.

You will find on your journey to regain health you are going to have to try lots of different supplements, diet approaches, hormones etc. The best way is to educate yourself about them all and then get experimenting. I can't say what your body will need to get better, but i am sure you can get better over time. It took me a good 5 yrs to really get on top of being balanced. In that time i was much better than the previous 16 yrs, but even so i had to mess around with stuff. I just wish i had resources like this back in 1993 when i first became ill.

 

[marsaday]

The waking temp is the important one, what is it and what temp do you reach in the day ? Do you have the natural upward curve from morning until about 6pm and then it starts to drop back again ?

Borda barnes liked to see waking temp at 36.6C, but mine is fine from 36.3C or higher. I used to be down in the 35.7's before thyroid treatment.

 

[Dobbler]

@marsaday I have hard time tolerating 8 mcg of T3 taking at breakfast. I def have some sort of adrenal insuffiency bcuz my stress tolerance and overal wellbeing is crap. Should i keep taking that 8 mcg and push through for few weeks (day 5 now)?
You say exercise is not advisible when body is not doing well, but would you say 1 hour gentle walking is safe? I stopped gym 1 month ago because it drained me even more.

 

[Tarmander]

@marsaday what do you think of the Now Parasite cleanse?

https://www.amazon.com/Foods-Walnut...9375670&sr=8-1&keywords=now+parasite+tincture

 

[marsaday]

@marsaday I have hard time tolerating 8 mcg of T3 taking at breakfast. I def have some sort of adrenal insuffiency bcuz my stress tolerance and overal wellbeing is crap. Should i keep taking that 8 mcg and push through for few weeks (day 5 now)?
You say exercise is not advisible when body is not doing well, but would you say 1 hour gentle walking is safe? I stopped gym 1 month ago because it drained me even more.

I think that is to much. What size tablet do you have ? If you can cut it down to around half that amount it would be a better starting point. Ideally we would start T3 with 1mcg doses, but they don't make this size tablet.

Also i would try taking the T3 in the middle of the night. This is called the circadian T3 routine and you provide T3 at the time the body naturally does in the middle of the night. This then has the effect of generating a bigger amount of cortisol and so the two hormones are in a better balance for the next day. You can naturally boost cortisol by 200-300%.

The ideal time is 4h's before waking up. So if you wake at 8am, set the alarm for 4am and take your 2 or 4mcg dose of T3. See how you feel in the day. You can adjust this dose to be higher, but you mustn't rush it because over time your body will start making much more cortisol and you don't want to go past your sweet point.

Many thyroid patients have low cortisol levels because thyroid levels are low. The two hormones work together. So if you provide to much T3 and don't have the cortisol to match it, the T3 does nothing. It will sit in the blood and you can have high FT3 levels, but it is not being sucked into the cells. This is why you introduce thyroid meds from a low dose and increase it slowly. T4 is much more effective at working with the cortisol present as it won't suck it up so fast. It needs to convert to T3 first and so is more gentler on the adrenals. But i am sure low dose T3 can be affective over time.

Easy walking is good, or swimming. Just not full on cardio. Strength training is good (lower reps, higher weights, but not so you are totally shot afterwards).

 

[marsaday]

@marsaday what do you think of the Now Parasite cleanse?

https://www.amazon.com/Foods-Walnut...9375670&sr=8-1&keywords=now+parasite+tincture

Not sure about it because never used it. My gut is ok i think, so no experience with this area.