Both "long" COVID-19 and CFS are likely caused by hypometabolism

[SB4]

Acetylcholine can't happen without thiamine. A person's thiamine can become deficient and its function can also get blocked.

I think there is a link here which is why I brought up my experience with aGPC. I think those temporary good effects I got on B1 was via increase in acetylcholine. I should note though I think my body is deliberately keeping me in a sympathetic state in order to keep blood flow going. When I took the B1 I felt more relaxed however my heart rate increased significantly to compensate.

I had a similar experience when I had acupuncture done. When I got up to leave and go to the bus, my heart rate went up massively, fastest its ever gone in my life, couldn't even count the beats. When I got home, sat down, put my feet up, I felt very relaxed in a way that is super rare for me (probably due to been kept in sympathetic dominance to help blood flow).

Perhaps this is the factor that is overriding my response to thiamine. I make more acetylcholine, this leads to relaxation of brain and blood vessels, which means my heart then has to struggle to keep the blood flowing, my autonomic system then accounts for this and decreases parasympathetic and I'm back to square one.

It would seem I would need to deal with the root problem of what is causing poor blood flow. But thats the big question.

Regardless, I'll take 2g of thiamine either tonight or tomorrow in honor of mostlylurking. I haven't taken it in half a year or so, so maybe I can have some small benefits for a day or 2.

 

[Dr. B]

I think there is a link here which is why I brought up my experience with aGPC. I think those temporary good effects I got on B1 was via increase in acetylcholine. I should note though I think my body is deliberately keeping me in a sympathetic state in order to keep blood flow going. When I took the B1 I felt more relaxed however my heart rate increased significantly to compensate.

I had a similar experience when I had acupuncture done. When I got up to leave and go to the bus, my heart rate went up massively, fastest its ever gone in my life, couldn't even count the beats. When I got home, sat down, put my feet up, I felt very relaxed in a way that is super rare for me (probably due to been kept in sympathetic dominance to help blood flow).

Perhaps this is the factor that is overriding my response to thiamine. I make more acetylcholine, this leads to relaxation of brain and blood vessels, which means my heart then has to struggle to keep the blood flowing, my autonomic system then accounts for this and decreases parasympathetic and I'm back to square one.

It would seem I would need to deal with the root problem of what is causing poor blood flow. But thats the big question.

Regardless, I'll take 2g of thiamine either tonight or tomorrow in honor of mostlylurking. I haven't taken it in half a year or so, so maybe I can have some small benefits for a day or 2.

so thiamine in higher doses will boost acetylcholine? by what mechanism?

 

[Dr. B]

pure thiamine hcl in powder form available from bulksupplements.com and also from purebulk.com.

I am not an expert on dosages. Everyone is different. I am not going to answer this type of question. I am not a doctor and I don't play one on teevee.

I am not an expert on dosages. Everyone is different. I am not going to answer this type of question. I am not a doctor and I don't play one on teevee.


The way to get these questions answered is to spend time reading research papers on the internet. Use a search engine on line. Read Ray Peat's articles on carbon dioxide.

The way to get these questions answered is to spend time reading research papers on the internet. Use a search engine on line. Read Ray Peat's articles on carbon dioxide.

I am not an expert on dosages. Everyone is different. I am not going to answer this type of question. I am not a doctor and I don't play one on teevee.


Yes, I think it is an issue. dental work metal toxins at DuckDuckGo

The way to get these questions answered is to spend time reading research papers on the internet. Use a search engine on line.

I am not a doctor. I am not a walking medical/health encyclopedia. I am a nameless faceless unknown person posting on an internet forum. It is unwise to rely on this type of source as the sole source for your health information. I'm just sharing my story; maybe it will encourage some people to do their own research.

I asked "lastly you mentioned acetazolamide, which is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. have you tried pomegranate juice or any other CA inhibitors, and do you think its the carbonic anhydrase inhibiting activity of thiamine that's responsible for the beneficial effects you and others have seen? since carbonic anhydrase inhibition would mean replicating living at high altitude, high CO2 levels and much more. just the higher CO2 levels alone from thiamine could be responsible for a variety of beneficial effects."

that isnt something that can necessarily be googled. i was asking if youve tried and compared other carbonic anhydrase inhibitors to thiamine and what you found. you mentioned acetzolamide.

 

[mostlylurking]

I think there is a link here which is why I brought up my experience with aGPC. I think those temporary good effects I got on B1 was via increase in acetylcholine. I should note though I think my body is deliberately keeping me in a sympathetic state in order to keep blood flow going. When I took the B1 I felt more relaxed however my heart rate increased significantly to compensate.

I had a similar experience when I had acupuncture done. When I got up to leave and go to the bus, my heart rate went up massively, fastest its ever gone in my life, couldn't even count the beats. When I got home, sat down, put my feet up, I felt very relaxed in a way that is super rare for me (probably due to been kept in sympathetic dominance to help blood flow).

Perhaps this is the factor that is overriding my response to thiamine. I make more acetylcholine, this leads to relaxation of brain and blood vessels, which means my heart then has to struggle to keep the blood flowing, my autonomic system then accounts for this and decreases parasympathetic and I'm back to square one.

It would seem I would need to deal with the root problem of what is causing poor blood flow. But thats the big question.

Regardless, I'll take 2g of thiamine either tonight or tomorrow in honor of mostlylurking. I haven't taken it in half a year or so, so maybe I can have some small benefits for a day or 2.

Starting off with a high dose of 2 grams of thiamine hcl on your own without a doctor could cause heart palpitations/coronary issues. Dr. Chandler Marrs recommends that if you are doing this on your own, it's a good idea to work your dose up over time, to be on the safe side. I spent 3 months working my way up to 2 grams of thiamine hcl.

Dr. Costantini provides some very good pointers on his website (read through HDT Therapy and FAQ He helped a lot of people use high dose thiamine via the internet. They weren't all in Italy.

I think it would be helpful for you to read Dr. Derrick Lonsdale's book about thiamine: Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition. This link might be helpful: Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition | ScienceDirect . You can also search for his name on line. Here's a link to his articles on hormonesmatter.com: Derrick Lonsdale, MD

Dr. Lonsdale was a contemporary of the doctor that detoxed me, Dr. Archer of San Antonio, back in 1994. They were both orthomolecular doctors. See this site: Orthomolecular.org-History Of Orthomolecular Medicine . I was blessed to have stumbled upon Dr. Archer; my GP told me to stick with Dr. Archer because main stream medicine had nothing to offer me. This experience happened over 25 years before I found Ray Peat.

 

[mostlylurking]

I asked "lastly you mentioned acetazolamide, which is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. have you tried pomegranate juice or any other CA inhibitors, and do you think its the carbonic anhydrase inhibiting activity of thiamine that's responsible for the beneficial effects you and others have seen? since carbonic anhydrase inhibition would mean replicating living at high altitude, high CO2 levels and much more. just the higher CO2 levels alone from thiamine could be responsible for a variety of beneficial effects."

that isnt something that can necessarily be googled. i was asking if youve tried and compared other carbonic anhydrase inhibitors to thiamine and what you found. you mentioned acetzolamide.

No. I have not tried carbonic anydrase inhibitors. Thiamine makes the metabolism work properly so that carbon dioxide is the end product instead of lactic acid. It massively increases carbon dioxide. It has solved my problem with lactic acidosis and being trapped in Warburg's cancer metabolism.

I don't know if thiamine is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. It is my understanding that thiamine solves the problem by creating carbon dioxide as the end product by restoring healthy metabolism. Carbonic anhydrase uses up carbon dioxide. A carbonic anhydrase inhibitor inhibits the carbonic anhydrase from using up the carbon dioxide that is in the body. If you are thiamine deficient you aren't making carbon dioxide so your carbon dioxide is very low. Addressing the thiamine deficiency massively increases the body's carbon dioxide.

You need to learn how to use a search engine.

 

[Dr. B]

No. I have not tried carbonic anydrase inhibitors. Thiamine makes the metabolism work properly so that carbon dioxide is the end product instead of lactic acid. It massively increases carbon dioxide. It has solved my problem with lactic acidosis and being trapped in Warburg's cancer metabolism.

I don't know if thiamine is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor. It is my understanding that thiamine solves the problem by creating carbon dioxide as the end product by restoring healthy metabolism. Carbonic anhydrase uses up carbon dioxide. A carbonic anhydrase inhibitor inhibits the carbonic anhydrase from using up the carbon dioxide that is in the body. If you are thiamine deficient you aren't making carbon dioxide so your carbon dioxide is very low. Addressing the thiamine deficiency massively increases the body's carbon dioxide.

You need to learn how to use a search engine.

Thiamine is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor as listed on wikipedia, stated by Ray himself and other sources. I wasnt asking you if thiamine was a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor or not, but was just asking if you've used other ones, like acetazolamide or pomegranate juice, and had a chance to compare to thiamine.
So despite despite your repeated attempts of telling people to "learn how to use a search engine" it looks like you need to both learn how to use a search engine as well as read posts better, and do additional research and forum reading on thiamine. people's experiences with thiamine and carbonic anhydrase inhibitors is a forum question. You can read research papers and wikipedia, but anecdotal evidence can still be useful.
There are a bunch of posts here on thiamine's value as a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor, which means it can contain a variety of benefits far beyond a simple vitamin/mineral deficiency, and that also sets it apart from other vitamins and minerals.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thiamine is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor as listed on wikipedia, stated by Ray himself and other sources. I wasnt asking you if thiamine was a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor or not, but was just asking if you've used other ones, like acetazolamide or pomegranate juice, and had a chance to compare to thiamine.
So despite despite your repeated attempts of telling people to "learn how to use a search engine" it looks like you need to both learn how to use a search engine as well as read posts better, and do more research on thiamine. people's experiences with thiamine and carbonic anhydrase inhibitors is a forum question. You can read research papers and wikipedia, but anecdotal evidence can still be useful.

I'm not taking thiamine for its carbonic anhydrase inhibitor properties. I'm taking it for its co-enzyme properties, essential for oxidative metabolism. I'm also taking it for my autonomic nervous system. It is my understanding that it is protective for possible heavy metal exposure; this is another reason why I take it. Learning that it might also be a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor is nice; I'll look into it.

You have asked me about the pomegranate juice multiple times. We have had this exchange before. I don't do pomegranate juice.

Anecdotal evidence is great! Have you posted any?

I was wandering around the hormonesmatter.com website and found this article and immediately thought of you: Himalayan Salt – Flint on Global Scale?

 

[mostlylurking]

I found an interesting article that I think is pertinent to this thread:

New Developments in High-Dose Thiamine: The Legacy of Antonio Costantini - Hormones Matter

Antonio Costantini pioneered the use of high-dose thiamine for treating a range of neurological and inflammatory conditions.

www.hormonesmatter.com

from the article:

"This study is significant for providing evidence of the potential of high-dose thiamine to help treat critically ill patients with COVID-19. As I noted in an earlier Hormones Matter blog post, a prior study had found that high-dose thiamine damped down the pro-inflammatory th-17 pathway associated with the COVID-19 cytokine storm, but that study did not involve the treatment of actual COVID-19 patients. Outcome data from the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance suggests that the combined use of Methylprednisolone, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Thiamine and Heparin (the so-called MATH+ protocol) may be helpful for COVID-19, but those data do not isolate the impact of high-dose thiamine and do not compare outcomes for treated households to those of a comparison group."

 

[Hugh Johnson]

If there's any commonality among CFS patients that I have noticed, it is intelligence and perseverance.

This may be true. I'd like to suggest an alternative view of CFS in light of that:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cjo9YwMkTg

 

[lampofred]

OK, I've slept on it and you have also tried to add clarification. Please allow me to try to respond again. It appears from the way you have written this that you are referring to the physical plane rather than the spiritual plane. So I will make that assumption. If I'm incorrect on this, please tell me.

"...they can improve their situation by changing how they live, avoiding... pain for the sake of conforming...."

It is possible that we agree on this, but I am approaching the issue from the perspective of a poison victim that got CFS and so from my perspective the thing that needed changing in my life was to remove all the poisons that were burdening my body. This required "tackling an infinite number of ...environmental factors". It required adjustments to the way I live. Many people who have CFS suffer from environmental toxin overload. It has to be addressed in order to recover. This attention to environmental detail empowers the CFS person and helps in the recovery. It is important.

You mention, "various diseases because mind and body are interconnected". Are you referring to the brain or are you referring to something else? I will assume you are referring to the brain and the physical plane and try to respond.

The brain (mind) and the body are connected via the central nervous system which includes the autonomic nervous system. The autonomic nervous system is supposed to run on autopilot and manage all those things the body is supposed to do without you having to think about them. This system has to have acetylcholine to work properly. Acetylcholine can't happen without thiamine. A person's thiamine can become deficient and its function can also get blocked.

Thiamine is extremely important because if it is deficient or if it is blocked, the autonomic nervous system can't work properly. If it doesn't work, the brain/body interface breaks down and stops working so well. If it breaks down enough, you die. But if it is just compromised, you don't die at least not right away; the body compensates and you limp along. You get some chronic health issues, like CFS and intestinal disbiosis and coronary issues. You also become more sensitive to environmental toxins because without thiamine your detox system doesn't work right. You cannot mentally will the function to normalize. But you can work on supplying the nutrients that the system requires. And you can work to reduce your toxin load.

Thiamine deficiency/functional blockage causes mitochondrial malfunction because without thiamine, you can't burn glucose properly and you can't burn fat properly either. You wind up with the end product being lactic acid instead of carbon dioxide. Lactic acid causes inflammation in a big way. Inflammation is a killer. Carbon dioxide is anti-inflammatory because it wipes out the lactic acid.

I think that the key to solving the problem of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is two fold: 1. detox the body and 2. normalize thiamine function. If a person has been severely thiamine deficient for a long time, normalizing thiamine function may require high dose thiamine which is a pharmacological treatment.

As I look back on my life, I suspect that the reason why I was a poison victim that got CFS was because I was deficient in thiamine when I got exposed to the poison and so my body could not get rid of the toxin on its own. I wound up at a detox clinic and was treated in various ways, including EDTA chelation (100+ IV treatments) plus lots and lots of B-complex (includes thiamine). I suspect now that the reason why I was carrying such a heavy load of heavy metals was because my thiamine function was compromised. I think that my thiamine function became compromised because it got blocked by the heavy metal exposure from childhood mercury amalgam fillings which massively increased my toxin load and blocked my thiamine function.

Sorry I got offended by your post. People with CFS are told a lot by the medical industry that their problem is mental and so tend to be sensitive regarding this misguided idea. "It's a mental problem" connotes it isn't a physical problem, you're just nuts. Part of the problem is that mental faculties are compromised by a lack of ATP which results from compromised mitochondrial function. Correcting the ATP deficit can be achieved by improving thiamine function>mitochondrial function, thereby improving the mental energy (ATP) deficit. Thyroid function is an important part of the equation too, it's just not the only thing.

No worries, I know many people say CFS is "all in your head" so it's understandable you thought I was saying the same thing. I was just saying that even though it's not all in your head and is caused by external factors, it can still be helpful to focus on your head instead of ignoring it altogether and just focusing on the toxins in your body.

I agree that thiamine is low but I think thiamine is a lot like magnesium, having good levels is less dependent on intake and more on retention. You need very little amounts if you have ample CO2 (or red light exposure, which has the same effect) because then you are able to retain it very well and a little goes a long way.

I think mercury worsens water-salt balance (increasing swelling) and thus increases hyperventilation, which blows out CO2 and depletes thiamine, magnesium, ATP. Organophosphates have the same effect.

What I mean by "head" is your lifestyle and activities, how much time you spend on thinking/ruminations, etc. basically focusing on how to live for satisfaction as opposed to living to conform (or focusing on changing your personality to truly become more content with less, but that's easier said than done). I think the way that all these poisons like mercury, organophosphates (and even PUFA) ultimately cause problems is by depleting CO2, but it works both ways; in addition to increasing CO2 by detoxifying these poisons, if you change your life to increase personal satisfaction instead of conformity, your body will automatically detoxify these poisons (satisfaction retains CO2, dissatisfaction increases hyperventilation which blows off CO2), leading to the creation of positive feedback loops of increasing CO2/progesterone (high CO2 detoxifies poisons, detoxifying poisons increases CO2).

Not trying to "debate" you or anything on what is effective for CFS, just trying to offer another perspective. And I'm not saying that you live to conform instead of for satisfaction, that is just what I've noticed in among CFS people I know, but that might not apply to your situation specifically.

 

[mostlylurking]

No worries, I know many people say CFS is "all in your head" so it's understandable you thought I was saying the same thing. I was just saying that even though it's not all in your head and is caused by external factors, it can still be helpful to focus on your head instead of ignoring it altogether and just focusing on the toxins in your body.

I agree that thiamine is low but I think thiamine is a lot like magnesium, having good levels is less dependent on intake and more on retention. You need very little amounts if you have ample CO2 (or red light exposure, which has the same effect) because then you are able to retain it very well and a little goes a long way.

I think mercury worsens water-salt balance (increasing swelling) and thus increases hyperventilation, which blows out CO2 and depletes thiamine, magnesium, ATP. Organophosphates have the same effect.

What I mean by "head" is your lifestyle and activities, how much time you spend on thinking/ruminations, etc. basically focusing on how to live for satisfaction as opposed to living to conform (or focusing on changing your personality to truly become more content with less, but that's easier said than done). I think the way that all these poisons like mercury, organophosphates (and even PUFA) ultimately cause problems is by depleting CO2, but it works both ways; in addition to increasing CO2 by detoxifying these poisons, if you change your life to increase personal satisfaction instead of conformity, your body will automatically detoxify these poisons (satisfaction retains CO2, dissatisfaction increases hyperventilation which blows off CO2), leading to the creation of positive feedback loops of increasing CO2/progesterone (high CO2 detoxifies poisons, detoxifying poisons increases CO2).

Not trying to "debate" you or anything on what is effective for CFS, just trying to offer another perspective. And I'm not saying that you live to conform instead of for satisfaction, that is just what I've noticed in among CFS people I know, but that might not apply to your situation specifically.

I've never been a conforming kind of person. One of the most liberating things my psychotherapist ever provided to me (30+ years ago) was the mantra, "It's none of my business what other people think about me".

About focusing on one's mind and ruminations: When I was younger (before Peat) I was trapped in circular thinking and high anxiety. The therapist got a crawful of it one day and exclaimed, "oh, just stop with the catastrophizing!" I am here to tell you that my problem was body chemistry. Estrogen dominance, no progesterone, low thiamine, hypothyridism, high adrenaline, and heavy metals. For the past 6 years, (after finding Peat), I've improved my body chemistry with progesterone, some b-complex, and high dose thiamine, I am a different person.

The thing that slammed me a year ago that just about finished me off was a prescription for Bactrim antibiotic for a UTI. It blocked my thiamine function and just about killed me. I discovered thiamine because of an aside comment by Haidut on a Danny Roddy show; I tried some, it worked like magic, so I did a search for "Bactrim and thiamine" and found this article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter. Haidut and this article saved my life. Evidently, a lot of people get damaged by pharmaceutical drugs, mainly antibiotics, but Metformin too and there's others. I think that the way people become deficient in CO2 is their thiamine function gets blocked or they become deficient. The recommended daily requirement is pathetically low.

I've come to believe that thiamine is some amazing stuff.

 

[freyasam]

This may be true. I'd like to suggest an alternative view of CFS in light of that:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cjo9YwMkTg

People who have suffered from anything above mild me/cfs would rarely refer to it as "chronic fatigue." As Laura Hildebrand says, fatigue to CFS is like a match to an atomic bomb. So I take issue with people who have never had it blaming us for our mindset. It's not as simple as getting sick because you're doing something you don't want to do. Does she treat cancer patients the same way? I doubt it, because cancer patients are treated with respect and are not blamed for their illness. Just like with every disease, mindset or people pleasing does play a role, but I really don't like healthy people mocking and blaming sick people. There is a physiological component to cfs as well.

 

[freyasam]

"the therapist got a crawful of it one day and exclaimed, "oh, just stop with the catastrophizing!" I am here to tell you that my problem was body chemistry."

The therapist doesn't sound very helpful.

 

[freyasam]

I found an interesting article that I think is pertinent to this thread:

New Developments in High-Dose Thiamine: The Legacy of Antonio Costantini - Hormones Matter

Antonio Costantini pioneered the use of high-dose thiamine for treating a range of neurological and inflammatory conditions.

www.hormonesmatter.com

from the article:

"This study is significant for providing evidence of the potential of high-dose thiamine to help treat critically ill patients with COVID-19. As I noted in an earlier Hormones Matter blog post, a prior study had found that high-dose thiamine damped down the pro-inflammatory th-17 pathway associated with the COVID-19 cytokine storm, but that study did not involve the treatment of actual COVID-19 patients. Outcome data from the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance suggests that the combined use of Methylprednisolone, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Thiamine and Heparin (the so-called MATH+ protocol) may be helpful for COVID-19, but those data do not isolate the impact of high-dose thiamine and do not compare outcomes for treated households to those of a comparison group.

Do any of the resources you have posted address how to mitigate the anxiety from vitamin b1? I want to look into this but it's a little overwhelming for someone with limited energy.

 

[mostlylurking]

Do any of the resources you have posted address how to mitigate the anxiety from vitamin b1? I want to look into this but it's a little overwhelming for someone with limited energy.

Maybe this article? Depression, Anxiety, and the Chronically Hypoxic Brain - Hormones Matter HormonesMatter has a good search engine in the header. Here's results for anxiety: You searched for anxiety - Hormones Matter

I think maybe this is something that improves after a little time of taking some thiamine? This isn't an overnight fix.

I found taking progesterone helped me a lot with anxiety. I take about 40mg of progesterone at night.

 

[freyasam]

Maybe this article? Depression, Anxiety, and the Chronically Hypoxic Brain - Hormones Matter HormonesMatter has a good search engine in the header. Here's results for anxiety: You searched for anxiety - Hormones Matter

I think maybe this is something that improves after a little time of taking some thiamine? This isn't an overnight fix.

I found taking progesterone helped me a lot with anxiety. I take about 40mg of progesterone at night.

Thank you.

 

[mostlylurking]

Thank you.

glad I can help.

 

[Dr. B]

Do any of the resources you have posted address how to mitigate the anxiety from vitamin b1? I want to look into this but it's a little overwhelming for someone with limited energy.

wha dosage were you using and how serious was the anxiety? have you used beta alanine or creatine or choline, how does the anxiety compare? I would think thiamine would lower anxiety via increasing CO2 levels, but I dont know... im going to be trying out 500mg a day soon

 

[freyasam]

wha dosage were you using and how serious was the anxiety? have you used beta alanine or creatine or choline, how does the anxiety compare? I would think thiamine would lower anxiety via increasing CO2 levels, but I dont know... im going to be trying out 500mg a day soon

I tried 25-50mg allothiamine and everything from 10 to 100 mg thaimin HCl. The anxiety was bad enough I couldn't focus on other things. I tried 25mg Hcl today without issue so maybe I can tolerate it better now... or maybe the supplement is several years old and worthless. Will keep trying. Have not tried the other items you listed.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Does she treat cancer patients the same way?

Yes. You might consider the difference between blame and responsibility. Your free will is absolute and I have given only perspectives, choose the one you want.