Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Mitchondria, Lactate, Oxidative Stress, Anaerobic

[Wendy B]

Can you help translate some of the findings in this article through a Peaty view? My brain is so mushy and I have only a very basic understanding of RP. Thanks for any help on this...

"Over time Shungu developed a startling hypothesis. While ME/CFS brains may look like they have a mitochondrial disease, they don’t. That doesn’t mean the mitochondria are working well – they’re not – but they’re not underperforming because of a metabolic problem. Instead, Shungu believes they’re getting pummeled by oxidative stress, resulting, at least in part, from a dramatic decline in the antioxidant system that’s designed to keep oxidative stress in check."

Could Poor Microcirculation Be Causing Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS)? - Health Rising

 

[somuch4food]

This article from Peat might be of interest:
Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer

I'm also currently trying to wrap my head around this fatigue that's always been bugging me.

Thiamine, Niacinamide, sugar, salt and thyroid are some suggestions from the article above.

The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. Factors that lower the stress hormones, increase carbon dioxide, and help to lower the circulating free fatty acids, lactate, and ammonia, include vitamin B1 (to increase CO2 and reduce lactate), niacinamide (to reduce free fatty acids), sugar (to reduce cortisol, adrenaline, and free fatty acids), salt (to lower adrenaline), thyroid hormone (to increase CO2). Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976).

 

[LLight]

CFS patients (immune) cells feature different responses to osmotic stress and a CFS test has been developped recently based on that property.

CFS patients seem to have a lack of Antidiuretic Hormones (vasopressin) compared with controls. I think I saw a publication linking these with a deficiency of vitamin B1 (thiamine).

Nutrients which seem to be linked with osmotic stress response (there may be more): thiamine, boron, osmolytes (for example, betaine, proline, TMAO, glucose). Maybe, if you have CFS, try to supplement with such substances.

 

[methylenewhite]

TMAO

What does TMAO stand for?

 

[LLight]

What does TMAO stand for?

Trimethylamine N-oxide - Wikipedia

 

[Tarmander]

There is definitely a subset of diseases that have issues with oxidative stress and most variations on a peat diet, which push oxidation, address these poorly.

 

[lampofred]

Oxidative stress + poor brain circulation = deficiency of calcium and glycine, excess phosphate and iron

 

[energyandstruct]

There is definitely a subset of diseases that have issues with oxidative stress and most variations on a peat diet, which push oxidation, address these poorly.

Agreed. Imo thr oxidative stress comes from stuff like toxic exposure which has to be addressed before throttling metabolism more

 

[energyandstruct]

 

[LLight]

Betaine is a positive regulator of mitochondrial respiration. - PubMed - NCBI

"Mitochondrial electron transport chain (ETC) complexes generate the mitochondrial membrane potential, which is essential to produce cellular energy, ATP. Reduced mitochondrial respiration and energy status have been found in many human pathological conditions including aging, cancer, and neurodegenerative disease. In this study we investigated whether betaine directly targets mitochondria. We show that betaine treatment leads to an upregulation of mitochondrial respiration and cytochrome c oxidase activity in H2.35 cells, the proposed rate limiting enzyme of ETC in vivo. Following treatment, the mitochondrial membrane potential was increased and cellular energy levels were elevated."

Regarding boron, it seems to be involved in the immune system (if I'm not mistaken, antiviral and antifungal effects, when CFS is known to be associated with viruses and fungal infections especially). Boron can lower inflammation and also seems to be linked to the antioxydant system (Nothing Boring About Boron. - PubMed - NCBI).

 

[Wendy B]

Agreed. Imo thr oxidative stress comes from stuff like toxic exposure which has to be addressed before throttling metabolism more

I think this is the experience I am having. Attempts to upregulate metabolism tend to bring on severe sugar or sugar + fat cravings - not great for randall cycle (and which no amount of sugar or food will quell) and/or exhaustion - among other symptoms. Feels as though up-reg of metab just blows the circuits and leaves my body scrambling for a way to come up with the energy it can't produce. I'm wondering if i can slowly push it though. I may be tolerating thyroid in tiny dose now, which I coudn't previously...I am taking 1/8 of a 5mcg T3 and 1/8 pill of 25 mcg t4 and it may be going OK now.

 

[Wendy B]

There is definitely a subset of diseases that have issues with oxidative stress and most variations on a peat diet, which push oxidation, address these poorly.

Do you have cfs? Have you found any peaty stuff that has helped?

 

[somuch4food]

Betaine is a positive regulator of mitochondrial respiration. - PubMed - NCBI

"Mitochondrial electron transport chain (ETC) complexes generate the mitochondrial membrane potential, which is essential to produce cellular energy, ATP. Reduced mitochondrial respiration and energy status have been found in many human pathological conditions including aging, cancer, and neurodegenerative disease. In this study we investigated whether betaine directly targets mitochondria. We show that betaine treatment leads to an upregulation of mitochondrial respiration and cytochrome c oxidase activity in H2.35 cells, the proposed rate limiting enzyme of ETC in vivo. Following treatment, the mitochondrial membrane potential was increased and cellular energy levels were elevated."

Regarding boron, it seems to be involved in the immune system (if I'm not mistaken, antiviral and antifungal effects, when CFS is known to be associated with viruses and fungal infections especially). Boron can lower inflammation and also seems to be linked to the antioxydant system (Nothing Boring About Boron. - PubMed - NCBI).

Do you have access to the study?

 

[LLight]

Do you have access to the study?

Here is the study attached.

"At 5mM betaine the ATP concentration was increased by 100%."

Don't know if this is a physiological level of betaine in the blood but this seems to be a quite powerful effect.

Betaine also happens to be anti-inflammatory: Betaine in Inflammation: Mechanistic Aspects and Applications. - PubMed - NCBI

"Betaine is known as trimethylglycine and is widely distributed in animals, plants, and microorganisms. Betaine is known to function physiologically as an important osmoprotectant and methyl group donor. Accumulating evidence has shown that betaine has anti-inflammatory functions in numerous diseases. Mechanistically, betaine ameliorates sulfur amino acid metabolism against oxidative stress, inhibits nuclear factor-κB activity and NLRP3 inflammasome activation, regulates energy metabolism, and mitigates endoplasmic reticulum stress and apoptosis. Consequently, betaine has beneficial actions in several human diseases, such as obesity, diabetes, cancer, and Alzheimer's disease."

 

[milkboi]

Here is the study attached.

"At 5mM betaine the ATP concentration was increased by 100%."

Don't know if this is a physiological level of betaine in the blood but this seems to be a quite powerful effect.

Betaine also happens to be anti-inflammatory: Betaine in Inflammation: Mechanistic Aspects and Applications. - PubMed - NCBI

"Betaine is known as trimethylglycine and is widely distributed in animals, plants, and microorganisms. Betaine is known to function physiologically as an important osmoprotectant and methyl group donor. Accumulating evidence has shown that betaine has anti-inflammatory functions in numerous diseases. Mechanistically, betaine ameliorates sulfur amino acid metabolism against oxidative stress, inhibits nuclear factor-κB activity and NLRP3 inflammasome activation, regulates energy metabolism, and mitigates endoplasmic reticulum stress and apoptosis. Consequently, betaine has beneficial actions in several human diseases, such as obesity, diabetes, cancer, and Alzheimer's disease."

@Waremu

 

[Tarmander]

Do you have cfs? Have you found any peaty stuff that has helped?

I would say there was a period around 4 or 5 years ago where I would be classified as CFS, but probably not anymore. I had the exercise intolerance and everything.

The Peaty stuff that is helpful is generally the stress avoidance stuff like radiation, pufa, low blood sugar, etc. The stuff that pushes metabolism I found counter productive (caffeine, B complex, etc). It is funny betaine was mentioned above because I take Betaine HCL everyday and it really makes a big difference for me. I also like charcoal although taking it internally makes my teeth more yellow. I do take NDT and find unlike other things that push metabolism, it works pretty well.

 

[Wendy B]

Here is the study attached.

"At 5mM betaine the ATP concentration was increased by 100%."

Don't know if this is a physiological level of betaine in the blood but this seems to be a quite powerful effect.

Betaine also happens to be anti-inflammatory: Betaine in Inflammation: Mechanistic Aspects and Applications. - PubMed - NCBI

"Betaine is known as trimethylglycine and is widely distributed in animals, plants, and microorganisms. Betaine is known to function physiologically as an important osmoprotectant and methyl group donor. Accumulating evidence has shown that betaine has anti-inflammatory functions in numerous diseases. Mechanistically, betaine ameliorates sulfur amino acid metabolism against oxidative stress, inhibits nuclear factor-κB activity and NLRP3 inflammasome activation, regulates energy metabolism, and mitigates endoplasmic reticulum stress and apoptosis. Consequently, betaine has beneficial actions in several human diseases, such as obesity, diabetes, cancer, and Alzheimer's disease."

Which brand betaine do u take?

 

[LLight]

Which brand betaine do u take?

Personally, I do not take betaine at the moment.

@Tarmander , can you tell us which supplement you buy?

 

[Tarmander]

Personnaly, I do not take betaine at the moment.

@Tarmander , can you tell us which supplement you buy?

I buy this one: https://www.amazon.com/BulkSuppleme...d_r=7KYRPCYA8A4G8XHDXCRH&psc=1&qid=1574107396

I load it into capsules myself. Have to do capsules or it'll burn your throat/mouth. I take 6-12 capsules per meal...so probably a couple grams per meal.

 

[energyandstruct]