Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a metabolic disorder

Korven

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May 4, 2019
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237
You have lost more muscle?

Yeah :( It's one of the most scary things about this disease, don't want to think about how much bone and muscle mass I've lost from being sedentary. I try to eat lots of animal protein to sustain myself. Pregnenolone seems to help a bit with anabolism. Might look into something more potent to hold onto lean mass.

I've ordered some TUDCA and will be receiving it shortly. What can you tell me about your experience with TUDCA? What is your reason for taking it?

When I took TUDCA before I noticed immediate improvements with digestion and bile flow (which seem to be permanent). I think low-fat veganism messed up my gallbladder, and TUDCA "unmessed" it.

I have some left and I might as well take it considering the massive amount of research on TUDCA and bile, liver and gut health:

Lowers liver enzymes (Effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on serum liver enzymes and dyspeptic symptoms in patients with chronic active hepatitis) reduces gut inflammation, improves barrier function and gut microbiome (Tauroursodeoxycholic acid inhibits intestinal inflammation and barrier disruption in mice with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease - PubMed), increases T4 to T3 conversion, lowers endoplasmatic reticulum stress, anti-inflammatory effects in the brain by reducing glia cell activation, etc ,etc.

Can definitely feel the thyroid boosting effect and perhaps some of the reduced microglia activation, not quite as depressed as usual.
 

username

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Nov 17, 2020
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When I took TUDCA before I noticed immediate improvements with digestion and bile flow (which seem to be permanent). I think low-fat veganism messed up my gallbladder, and TUDCA "unmessed" it.

I have some left and I might as well take it considering the massive amount of research on TUDCA and bile, liver and gut health:

Lowers liver enzymes (Effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on serum liver enzymes and dyspeptic symptoms in patients with chronic active hepatitis) reduces gut inflammation, improves barrier function and gut microbiome (Tauroursodeoxycholic acid inhibits intestinal inflammation and barrier disruption in mice with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease - PubMed), increases T4 to T3 conversion, lowers endoplasmatic reticulum stress, anti-inflammatory effects in the brain by reducing glia cell activation, etc ,etc.

Can definitely feel the thyroid boosting effect and perhaps some of the reduced microglia activation, not quite as depressed as usual.
Thanks for this! I come from high-fat carnivore and I probably don't have a gallbladder/bile issue, but I do have some concern about liver health so I figured I'd order TUDCA. I currently take Taurine which is in some way related to TUDCA, though I don't really understand it. Do you think there is still much benefit to be had from taking TUDCA when Taurine is already one of my supplements?

It's good to hear that it helps with thyroid as I have struggled with low thyroid symptoms like cold hands, thin eyebrows, fatigue etc.

Also, I sure hope I notice the same in regards to depression. I have been struggling with it for a long time and can't seem to find much relief.
 

AdoTintor

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I read J. Mikovits book (Plague) and it described how CFS infected people in the US (largely in 80's) ruining the lives of millions of Americans (largely women) and ultimately being sideline/classified as a mental illness by Fauci.

However, her 2009 science paper unambiguously linked it to a XMRV (mouse retro-virus). Probably from the tainted blood supply which was a very large liability. F promptly destroyed her career and defunded any further research in that direction.

Ultimately I think she believes the XMRV came from vaccines, which are derived from virus strains that are put through a few generations of mice to weaken the virus enough to be used in a vaccine, but unfortunately pick up the XMRV from the mice during this process.
 

Korven

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237
Thanks for this! I come from high-fat carnivore and I probably don't have a gallbladder/bile issue, but I do have some concern about liver health so I figured I'd order TUDCA. I currently take Taurine which is in some way related to TUDCA, though I don't really understand it. Do you think there is still much benefit to be had from taking TUDCA when Taurine is already one of my supplements?

It's good to hear that it helps with thyroid as I have struggled with low thyroid symptoms like cold hands, thin eyebrows, fatigue etc.

Also, I sure hope I notice the same in regards to depression. I have been struggling with it for a long time and can't seem to find much relief.

TUDCA is Taurine + UrsoDeoxyCholic Acid (a bile acid). Both of these compounds are liver protective and there's probably some synergistic effect between them. UDCA, the bile acid, is used as a treatment for cholestasis a.k.a impaired bile flow due to liver damage and/or bile duct obstructions.

In my experience, TUDCA is way more powerful for healing the liver and fixing gallbladder congestion. Probably a good idea if you've been high fat carnivore as that seems to be a risk factor for developing NAFLD! B-vitamins are also important.
 

username

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Nov 17, 2020
Messages
28
TUDCA is Taurine + UrsoDeoxyCholic Acid (a bile acid). Both of these compounds are liver protective and there's probably some synergistic effect between them. UDCA, the bile acid, is used as a treatment for cholestasis a.k.a impaired bile flow due to liver damage and/or bile duct obstructions.

In my experience, TUDCA is way more powerful for healing the liver and fixing gallbladder congestion. Probably a good idea if you've been high fat carnivore as that seems to be a risk factor for developing NAFLD! B-vitamins are also important.
Thanks so much for the information. How do you take TUDCA? on an empty stomach before a meal?
 

Korven

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May 4, 2019
Messages
237
Thanks so much for the information. How do you take TUDCA? on an empty stomach before a meal?

Taking after meals is probably a good idea so you stimulate bile release and aid digestion. 2x200 mg is a good dose.
 

Jem Oz

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Jun 13, 2016
Messages
326
Correct. There are no, none, zilch „psychological“ or psychosomatic pathologies. Everything happens due to manifest cellular and molecular proceedings.
What’s correct though from the pseudo-sciences of pschyology: the stressors are real. Bit they don’t hurt the „soul“ or the mind, but the cells.
Strongly strongly strongly disagree (but love the healthy debates on this forum). I believe this will be a twin century: of biological discoveries but equally of psychic and consciousness-based discoveries. And it’s thrilling.
I have read and witnessed so many things: a boy spontaneously healing from chronic eczema after a wise psychologist helped him understand that he was afraid of his mum leaving (the rash was a way to get her attention and care); the incredible work of dr John Sarno who dared to say the vast majority of lower back pain sufferers have a strong psychological/emotional blockage manifesting in the body (it’s worth reading his testimonials they are incredible).
I’m no fan of institutionalised psychology (or the unbridled abomination that is psychiatry), but I believe we have barely scratched the surface when it comes to the role our unconscious plays in our physical lives.
 

LeeLemonoil

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@Jem Oz

Thanks. I wasn’t really precise with my words. I believe things like you mentioned.
We only fail to identify those „psychological“ stressors and trauma wrong. You don’t need to be hurt with a knife or bitten by an animal to suffer cellular injury. Everything the environment „does“ to you, especially human interactions, has effects, can be a stressor. The physiological responses are identical. And so are the healing mechanisms.
 

Explorer

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Research showing increased neuroinflammation in a specific brain area basal ganglia in the ME / CFS group compared to the healthy control group
 

Spondive

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338
I read J. Mikovits book (Plague) and it described how CFS infected people in the US (largely in 80's) ruining the lives of millions of Americans (largely women) and ultimately being sideline/classified as a mental illness by Fauci.

However, her 2009 science paper unambiguously linked it to a XMRV (mouse retro-virus). Probably from the tainted blood supply which was a very large liability. F promptly destroyed her career and defunded any further research in that direction.

Ultimately I think she believes the XMRV came from vaccines, which are derived from virus strains that are put through a few generations of mice to weaken the virus enough to be used in a vaccine, but unfortunately pick up the XMRV from the mice during this process.
This! If viruses exist
 

LLight

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May 30, 2018
Messages
673
Same. And nothing has healed my cfs more than making dry fasting part of my lifestyle. It hasnt been a onetime use single bullet, but it had healed me tremendously and continues to do so.
I dry fast on average one day a week, though i often skip a week or two and make it up by going a few days another week.
I sometimes will feel sick during the fast but i can tell it's the healing process.
Though i only feel sick when i fast at the beginning of a huge cfs flareup. Overall i feel way better with the fast than without.

Seconded. Dry-fasting has ultimately been the most healing thing, but the carnivore diet was the single best thing for me to help me figure out what foods were making me sick.
I found one of the things was caffeine, even from green tea, so I stress that it's very important to go full carnivore if you're going to do it. Only water for liquids, and only meat(cut out eggs at first as well). Over a few months you can slowly introduce new foods. Start with things like broccoli and lettuce, and only ever one food at a time.
Nowadays I eat a lot of veggies, a bit of fruit, and a medium amount of meat, as I've mostly been able to find out what to avoid through going carnivore for 5 months.
Carnivore wasn't ideal for me permanently, but it was ideal for 5 months.
 

redsun

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Dec 17, 2018
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Anyone know why/how Ativan (a benzodiazepine) would improve CFS symptoms? Are stronger GABA agonists worth looking into for this condition? If it worked for Ron Davis's son, considering how severe his illness is, then it should be quite potent.

It's great that there's research being done on CFS (God Bless Ron!) but somehow I doubt there'll be a "treatment" available anytime soon.

High dose allithiamine (+300 mg) has given me some energy back, but it doesn't seem to fix the root cause of the issue. I feel like something is poisoning my cells' ability to produce energy, and until I figure out what that is and remove it I'm not going to get any better. All supplements feel like bandaids and not true healing.

GABA agonists will eventually upregulate glutamate to counter it which increases energy. Glutamate will increase which increases activity of other excitatory neurotransmitters, thus will help CFS.
Yeah good points. I'm leaning towards the bacteria autoimmune hypothesis causing systemic inflammation (ankylosing spondylitis being one example). SIBO, gut dysbiosis, leaky gut, allergies/sensitivies etc, etc likely contributes.

The question is where/how do you intervene in the inflammation cascade to improve symptoms, or better yet, how to identify the trigger for excessive inflammation/oxidative stress and get rid off it.



Not sure about niacinamide.

I've tried most peaty things to improve glucose oxidation and limit FAO. Still feel poisoned, or like I have cancer, and can't walk outside the house without crashing.

If you still deal with histadelic type symptoms, I suggest you try SAM-e. This will likely give you the relief you are looking for.
 

Explorer

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From A scientist proved chronic fatigue syndrome is real — after his son was devastated by it

"
Davis lived and breathed the disease. At night, he’d literally dream of science experiments. He’d come home from work at 4 p.m., take care of Whitney before turning over the caregiving to his wife at night. He’d then get back to work, “disappearing into the library with his laptop, lost in the science and hunting for answers.”


Finally, in the spring of 2015, a breakthrough. Davis opened his computer to find the results of tests on his son’s blood he’d been waiting two years to get.

“I thought, Wow,” he says in the book.

The results left him and his wife in tears.

Davis had discovered that the processes in each cell that convert food to energy were not working correctly in his son. The scientists had “found scientific proof of ME/CFS,” clearing a major hurdle for a disease that many still today deem imaginary.

What’s more, Davis and his team developed a simple blood test to detect the disease that could one day be used in doctor’s offices.

Today, Dafoe, now 37, remains bedridden and immobile, but with the help of a drug called Ativan used to treat anxiety, he now has short bursts of energy in which he’s able to write e-mails or blog posts, though he still cannot speak.

“I want to push the ME/CFS community forward,” Dafoe wrote to White recently. “I want to inspire people to keep fighting and not give up because I know a cure is coming soon.”
"

So according to this there is an issue with converting food into energy to be used for the cells.
 

Jem Oz

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326
I wonder about the psychological component of CFS. I know this is a primarily metabolic forum, however it wouldn't surprise me if there was, in some instances, a kind of psychic shut down happening inside the CFS sufferer, as a manifestation of early trauma and parental neglect. Much like with "autism".

One of my childhood best friends had a shockingly narcissistic mother, who developed CFS, and she firmly believes it was an attention seeking way for the mother to ensure everything revolved around her. When the kids grew up and moved out, the mother mysteriously recovered overnight.

None of which is to deny the biological aspects. However with things like CFS I do believe it's playing out on multiple fronts.
 

mostlylurking

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May 13, 2015
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213
If that is the case what would be the underlying cause?
Compare to severe thiamine deficiency and you may have your answer. You searched for chronic fatigue syndrome - Hormones Matter

also this video:
I was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Acquired Immune Deficiency in 1994. I was really sick. I didn't know why. The doctor I found did lots of blood work and determined I had suffered some kind of environmental poisoning. So he detoxed me. For 2 years. I was also hypothyroid but he didn't check to see if my Synthroid was working for me. I found out 6 months into the detox program I had been poisoned with Dursban, fire ant poison aka organophosphate insecticide.

I felt a lot better physically after about 6 months of treatments (chelation for heavy metal poisoning, hyperbaric oxygen treatments, ultra-violet light blood treatments, vitamins by the handful, you name it, they did it.) However, my brain was in pretty bad shape. I couldn't fill out a check at the grocery store. I couldn't remember my own address and phone number. I couldn't read and I couldn't follow a simple plot on TV. My brain recovered after about 4 years. I taught myself how to marble fabric during that time (new right brain creative learning created new wiring I think).

I found Ray Peat 6 years ago when I was 65. I was really sick. Again. This time I had rheumatoid arthritis and had become incapacitated to the point of considering going into assisted living because I couldn't dress myself, brush my hair, brush my teeth. Things were not looking good.

I found Ray Peat on line. I quit my doctor of 10 years, who was making me sicker. I put myself on a Peaty diet. I found a well aged (he's 84) endocrinologist who worked with me to optimize my natural desiccated thyroid medication. I recovered; the rheumatoid arthritis just went away.

I remained in pretty good shape until last fall. In August I was prescribed Bactrim for a UTI. I couldn't tolerate it and stopped the 10 day series on the 6th day. I went to a urologist who prescribed Augmentin, which did clear the infection. I spent September recovering and also falling and injuring my shoulder (stress). By October I was not functioning. The CFS was back with a vengeance. I know what that feels like because I've had it before.

I assumed that my thyroid medication had stopped working because I felt severely hypothyroid. So I had blood work done. My endocrinologist was seriously alarmed because my T3 was way high through the roof. He lowered the dosage by 30mg. It wasn't working anyway so the reduction didn't change how I felt.

I researched on line and discovered this article about Bactrim: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter I learned that Bactrim blocks thiamine function and also biotin. I read up on thiamine deficiency. I found this video helpful:
and this one:
I emailed Ray Peat for advice and he advised me to eat cooked mushrooms daily. The antibiotics had damaged my ability to absorb thiamine (and lots of other things). The key was to heal my gut. I also started taking 1500mg of thiamine hcl last November along with 2000mg magnesium glycinate and a B-complex pill (Pur brand). I am taking the thiamine and magnesium in divided doses three times a day, always before 5:00pm, with 12 oz of orange juice each dose, for the potassium. I kept taking my usual regimen of supplements I had learned about from Ray Peat.

It has been about 2.5 months. I am almost back to normal now. I don't know how long I'll need to take this high dose of thiamine; I've read that things can improve after a few months and I will be able to lower the dose. I guess I'll find out. I do not believe that the damage I sustained from the Bactrim was ever going to just go away on its own. I had to aggressively address my thiamine issue.

I just wanted to share my story and this information about thiamine; I hope it might be helpful. My situation was complicated because my mitochondrial function was compromised in two ways; hypothyroidism AND severe thiamine deficiency. Both had to be addressed in order for me to get better.

Please note that I used plain old thiamine hcl. I tried taking the TTFD thiamine, but it gave me a screaming headache that lasted about 36 hours so I went back to the old fashioned thiamine hcl. My brain symptoms have resolved so I'm very happy with the results.
 
Last edited:

charlie

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Compare to severe thiamine deficiency and you may have your answer. You searched for chronic fatigue syndrome - Hormones Matter also this video:
I was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Acquired Immune Deficiency in 1994. I was really sick. I didn't know why. The doctor I found did lots of blood work and determined I had suffered some kind of environmental poisoning. So he detoxed me. For 2 years. I was also hypothyroid but he didn't check to see if my Synthroid was working for me. I found out 6 months into the detox program I had been poisoned with Dursban, fire ant poison aka organophosphate insecticide.

I felt a lot better physically after about 6 months of treatments (chelation for heavy metal poisoning, hyperbaric oxygen treatments, ultra-violet light blood treatments, vitamins by the handful, you name it, they did it.) However, my brain was in pretty bad shape. I couldn't fill out a check at the grocery store. I couldn't remember my own address and phone number. I couldn't read and I couldn't follow a simple plot on TV. My brain recovered after about 4 years. I taught myself how to marble fabric during that time (new right brain creative learning created new wiring I think).

I found Ray Peat 6 years ago when I was 65. I was really sick. Again. This time I had rheumatoid arthritis and had become incapacitated to the point of considering going into assisted living because I couldn't dress myself, brush my hair, brush my teeth. Things were not looking good.

I found Ray Peat on line. I quit my current doctor who was making me sicker. I put myself on a Peaty diet. I found a well aged (he's 84) endocrinologist who worked with me to optimize my natural desiccated thyroid medication. I recovered; the rheumatoid arthritis just went away.

I remained in pretty good shape until last fall. In August I was prescribed Bactrim for a UTI. I couldn't tolerate it and stopped the 10 day series on the 6th day. I went to a urologist who prescribed Augmentin, which did clear the infection. I spent September recovering and also falling and injuring my shoulder (stress). By October I was not functioning. The CFS was back with a vengeance. I know what that feels like because I've had it before.

I assumed that my thyroid medication had stopped working because I felt severely hypothyroid. So I had blood work done. My endocrinologist was seriously alarmed because my T3 was way high through the roof. He lowered the dosage by 30mg. It wasn't working anyway so the reduction didn't change how I felt.

I researched on line and discovered this article about Bactrim: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter I learned that Bactrim blocks thiamine function and also biotin. I read up on thiamine deficiency. I found this video helpful:
and this one:
I emailed Ray Peat for advice and he advised me to eat cooked mushrooms daily. The antibiotics had damaged my ability to absorb thiamine (and lots of other things). The key was to heal my gut. I also started taking 1500mg of thiamine last November along with 2000mg magnesium glycinate and a B-complex pill (Pur brand). I am taking the thiamine and magnesium in divided doses three times a day, always before 5:00pm. I kept taking my usual regimen of supplements I had learned about from Ray Peat.

It has been about 2.5 months. I am almost back to normal now. I don't know how long I'll need to take this high dose of thiamine; I've read that things can improve after a few months and I will be able to lower the dose. I guess I'll find out.

I just wanted to share my story and this information about thiamine; I thought it might be helpful. My situation was complicated because my mitochondrial function was compromised in two ways; hypothyroidism AND severe thiamine deficiency. Both had to be addressed in order to get better.
Incredible. Thank you for sharing. :hattip
 

Perry Staltic

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Joined
Dec 14, 2020
Messages
335
I researched on line and discovered this article about Bactrim: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter I learned that Bactrim blocks thiamine function and also biotin. I read up on thiamine deficiency.

So glad you're better.

Reading that article, Bactrim sounds like a wicked drug that is prescribed a lot. And only recently discovered that it depletes thiamine.

After some digging, I found that at least one of the antibiotics, Bactrim, likely does indeed induce thiamine deficiency by potently blocking both thiamine transporters. This had been only recently and accidently discovered and is clearly not common knowledge.

How many other drugs out there do things we don't know about, but their bad effects are blamed on other things? Imagine someone with these Bactrim side effects showing up at a hospital, diagnosed with covid and then put on a ventilator because their blood sat is low.
 
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