Choline: An Essential Nutrient for Public Health that we’re not getting enough of in our diet

[David PS]

I can definitely handle that rather than 7 yolks. :)

FYI - The 7 yolks was from medium eggs. From Cronometer, 7 medium = 5.5 extra large eggs. And for the upper limit, 27 medium = about 24 large eggs. So when it comes to eggs, size does matter (just a little).

 

[Blossom]

FYI - The 7 yolks was from medium eggs. From Cronometer, 7 medium = 5.5 extra large eggs. And for the upper limit, 27 medium = about 24 large eggs. So when it comes to eggs, size does matter (just a little).

Thank you so much!

 

[LLight]

Once I started taking choline bitartrate (stopped now as apparently it increase TMAO levels etc.) my scalp cleared up, and so did my skin!

Apparently, the link between TMAO and heart disease is not so clear. It might be a marker rather than a real cause. The production of TMAO is not even granted because betaine can also be another metabolite produced from choline (see Insights in the regulation of trimetylamine N-oxide production using a comparative biomimetic approach suggest a metabolic switch in hibernating bears - Scientific Reports).

TMA, A Forgotten Uremic Toxin, but Not TMAO, Is Involved in Cardiovascular Pathology

Trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO) has been suggested as a marker and mediator of cardiovascular diseases. However, data are contradictory, and the mechanisms are obscure. Strikingly, the role of the TMAO precursor trimethylamine (TMA) has not drawn attention in cardiovascular studies even though...

www.mdpi.com

Trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO) has been suggested as a marker and mediator of cardiovascular diseases. However, data are contradictory, and the mechanisms are obscure. Strikingly, the role of the TMAO precursor trimethylamine (TMA) has not drawn attention in cardiovascular studies even though toxic effects of TMA were proposed several decades ago. [...] Therefore, TMA but not TMAO may be a toxin and a marker of cardiovascular risk.

The TMAO Generating Enzyme Flavin Monooxygenase 3 is a Central Regulator of Cholesterol Balance

Circulating levels of the gut microbe-derived metabolite trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO) have recently been linked to cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk. Here we performed transcriptional profiling in mouse models of altered reverse cholesterol transport ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Given that normalization of circulating TMAO levels in FMO3 inhibited mice does not rescue the abnormal lipid and inflammatory phenotype, it is likely that other FMO3 substrates or products are involved. An obvious candidate would be the accumulation of the FMO3 substrate TMA in FMO3 ASO treated mice.

By the way, the FMO3 enzyme is controled by the FXR transcription factor, which has a "yin yang" relationship with the LXR, another transcription factor which is mentioned in the second publication.

 

[redsun]

Wow this is amazing! Thank you for such a great thread.

I remember I used to get acne type breaks on my scalp, I’m assuming it was due to low choline and/or NAFLD.

Once I started taking choline bitartrate (stopped now as apparently it increase TMAO levels etc.) my scalp cleared up, and so did my skin!

Wish I could continue taking choline bitartrate

It’s not easy to get enough choline through diet everyday.

How can one test for these genetic polymorphisms to do with choline?

Thank you again, will read through these studies more thoroughly once I get a moment.

Egg derived phosphatidylcholine does not raise TMAO while the bitartrate form does:

Dietary Choline Supplements, but Not Eggs, Raise Fasting TMAO Levels in Participants with Normal Renal Function: A Randomized Clinical Trial - PubMed

Despite high choline content in egg yolks, healthy participants consuming 4 eggs daily showed no significant increase in TMAO or platelet reactivity. However, choline bitartrate supplements providing comparable total choline raised both TMAO and platelet reactivity, demonstrating that the form...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Despite high choline content in egg yolks, healthy participants consuming 4 eggs daily showed no significant increase in TMAO or platelet reactivity. However, choline bitartrate supplements providing comparable total choline raised both TMAO and platelet reactivity, demonstrating that the form and source of dietary choline differentially contributes to systemic TMAO levels and platelet responsiveness."

 

[LLight]

By the way, the FMO3 enzyme is controled by the FXR transcription factor, which has a "yin yang" relationship with the LXR, another transcription factor which is mentioned in the second publication.

To end this parenthesis: these two transcription factors seems to be related to water homeostasis.

Nuclear Receptor Regulation of Aquaporin-2 in the Kidney

Aquaporin-2 (AQP2) is a vasopressin-regulated water channel responsible for regulating water reabsorption through the apical plasma membrane of the principal cells of renal collecting ducts. It has been found that dysregulation and dysfunction of AQP2 cause many disorders related to water...

www.mdpi.com

It should also be noted that betaine and TMAO are osmolytes, molecules that allow cells to survive osmotic stress, a situation that occurs when you are restricting your fluid intake.

Hypothesis: FXR might be upregulated when you don't drink water for some time, which induces the FMO3 enzyme, which itself induces the conversion of TMA to TMAO (reducing thus the toxicity of TMA), an osmolyte that allows your cells to balance the hyperosmolarity. When you drink, FXR is downregulated, LXR is then upregulated.

 

[cedric]

Choline works with CoA/v.B5/beta-alanine/cysteamine. May be we've been lied about pantothenate?
Processed food is low in B5.

Cerebral deficiency of vitamin B5 (d-pantothenic acid; pantothenate) as a potentially-reversible cause of neurodegeneration and dementia in sporadic Alzheimer's disease - PubMed

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is the most common cause of age-related neurodegeneration and dementia, and there are no available treatments with proven disease-modifying actions. It is therefore appropriate to study hitherto-unknown aspects of brain structure/function in AD to seek alternative...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"

Abstract​

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is the most common cause of age-related neurodegeneration and dementia, and there are no available treatments with proven disease-modifying actions. It is therefore appropriate to study hitherto-unknown aspects of brain structure/function in AD to seek alternative disease-related mechanisms that might be targeted by new therapeutic interventions with disease-modifying actions. During hypothesis-generating metabolomic studies of brain, we identified apparent differences in levels of vitamin B5 between AD cases and controls. We therefore developed a method based on gas chromatography-mass spectrometry by which we quantitated vitamin B5 concentrations in seven brain regions from nine AD cases and nine controls. We found that widespread, severe cerebral deficiency of vitamin B5 occurs in AD. This deficiency was worse in those regions known to undergo severe damage, including the hippocampus, entorhinal cortex, and middle temporal gyrus. Vitamin B5 is the obligate precursor of CoA/acetyl-CoA (acetyl-coenzyme A), which plays myriad key roles in the metabolism of all organs, including the brain. In brain, acetyl-CoA is the obligate precursor of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and the complex fatty-acyl groups that mediate the essential insulator role of myelin, both processes being defective in AD; moreover, the large cerebral vitamin B5 concentrations co-localize almost entirely to white matter. Vitamin B5 is well tolerated when administered orally to humans and other mammals. We conclude that cerebral vitamin B5 deficiency may well cause neurodegeneration and dementia in AD, which might be preventable or even reversible in its early stages, by treatment with suitable oral doses of vitamin B5."

Choline goes along with glycine, sarcosine, betaine and methylation.

 

[YourUniverse]

Thank you so much!

Seconded, great to see your face!

Iceberg lettuce source of choline, interesting.

 

[Blossom]

Seconded, great to see your face!

Iceberg lettuce source of choline, interesting.

Thank you. I like seeing pictures of everyone.
I’ve always tolerated iceberg lettuce fine so I’ll probably start eating more of it.

 

[Blossom]

Choline works with CoA/v.B5/beta-alanine/cysteamine. May be we've been lied about pantothenate?
Processed food is low in B5.

Cerebral deficiency of vitamin B5 (d-pantothenic acid; pantothenate) as a potentially-reversible cause of neurodegeneration and dementia in sporadic Alzheimer's disease - PubMed

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is the most common cause of age-related neurodegeneration and dementia, and there are no available treatments with proven disease-modifying actions. It is therefore appropriate to study hitherto-unknown aspects of brain structure/function in AD to seek alternative...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"

Abstract​

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is the most common cause of age-related neurodegeneration and dementia, and there are no available treatments with proven disease-modifying actions. It is therefore appropriate to study hitherto-unknown aspects of brain structure/function in AD to seek alternative disease-related mechanisms that might be targeted by new therapeutic interventions with disease-modifying actions. During hypothesis-generating metabolomic studies of brain, we identified apparent differences in levels of vitamin B5 between AD cases and controls. We therefore developed a method based on gas chromatography-mass spectrometry by which we quantitated vitamin B5 concentrations in seven brain regions from nine AD cases and nine controls. We found that widespread, severe cerebral deficiency of vitamin B5 occurs in AD. This deficiency was worse in those regions known to undergo severe damage, including the hippocampus, entorhinal cortex, and middle temporal gyrus. Vitamin B5 is the obligate precursor of CoA/acetyl-CoA (acetyl-coenzyme A), which plays myriad key roles in the metabolism of all organs, including the brain. In brain, acetyl-CoA is the obligate precursor of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and the complex fatty-acyl groups that mediate the essential insulator role of myelin, both processes being defective in AD; moreover, the large cerebral vitamin B5 concentrations co-localize almost entirely to white matter. Vitamin B5 is well tolerated when administered orally to humans and other mammals. We conclude that cerebral vitamin B5 deficiency may well cause neurodegeneration and dementia in AD, which might be preventable or even reversible in its early stages, by treatment with suitable oral doses of vitamin B5."

Choline goes along with glycine, sarcosine, betaine and methylation.

Interesting, I’ve been requiring a lot of B5 recently as well. I wonder if getting adequate choline might help me reduce that some?

 

[David PS]

Choline works with CoA/v.B5/beta-alanine/cysteamine. May be we've been lied about pantothenate?
Processed food is low in B5.

Cerebral deficiency of vitamin B5 (d-pantothenic acid; pantothenate) as a potentially-reversible cause of neurodegeneration and dementia in sporadic Alzheimer's disease - PubMed

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is the most common cause of age-related neurodegeneration and dementia, and there are no available treatments with proven disease-modifying actions. It is therefore appropriate to study hitherto-unknown aspects of brain structure/function in AD to seek alternative...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"

Abstract​

Alzheimer's disease (AD) is the most common cause of age-related neurodegeneration and dementia, and there are no available treatments with proven disease-modifying actions. It is therefore appropriate to study hitherto-unknown aspects of brain structure/function in AD to seek alternative disease-related mechanisms that might be targeted by new therapeutic interventions with disease-modifying actions. During hypothesis-generating metabolomic studies of brain, we identified apparent differences in levels of vitamin B5 between AD cases and controls. We therefore developed a method based on gas chromatography-mass spectrometry by which we quantitated vitamin B5 concentrations in seven brain regions from nine AD cases and nine controls. We found that widespread, severe cerebral deficiency of vitamin B5 occurs in AD. This deficiency was worse in those regions known to undergo severe damage, including the hippocampus, entorhinal cortex, and middle temporal gyrus. Vitamin B5 is the obligate precursor of CoA/acetyl-CoA (acetyl-coenzyme A), which plays myriad key roles in the metabolism of all organs, including the brain. In brain, acetyl-CoA is the obligate precursor of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and the complex fatty-acyl groups that mediate the essential insulator role of myelin, both processes being defective in AD; moreover, the large cerebral vitamin B5 concentrations co-localize almost entirely to white matter. Vitamin B5 is well tolerated when administered orally to humans and other mammals. We conclude that cerebral vitamin B5 deficiency may well cause neurodegeneration and dementia in AD, which might be preventable or even reversible in its early stages, by treatment with suitable oral doses of vitamin B5."

Choline goes along with glycine, sarcosine, betaine and methylation.

Thank you for the B5 connection.

 

[David PS]

Accumulation of Liver Lipids Induced by Vitamin B6 Deficiency Was Effectively Ameliorated by Choline and, to a Lesser Extent, Betaine

Supplementation with choline resulted in a higher liver betaine than that found using the same amount of betaine alone, although the overall liver betaine content was reduced in B6-deficient rats. Our findings indicate that choline is more effective than betaine in ameliorating B6 deficiency-related disruptions in Met metabolism and liver lipid accumulation by increasing liver betaine levels.

 

[Grapelander]

DMAE is also an option - it is same molecule as Choline minus a methyl group.
DMAE does not absorb water from the air like most choline, DMG, TMG.
Great to take with Magnesium.
Examine: DMAE
DMAE is a compound that is known as a mind health compound. It does this by reducing buildup of what is known as the 'age pigment', which impairs cognitive function and is implicated in the cognitive decline with age. It can also increase levels of the compound involved with memory, acetylcholine.

Pure Bulk: DMAE
$ 5.00 for 100 grams

 

[aliml]

Once I started taking choline bitartrate my scalp cleared up, and so did my skin!

Choline bitartrate contains 40% choline, so Tartaric acid may play an additional role in skin cleansing!

 

[I'm.No.One]

Just to share Duck eggs have about 184mg of choline & chicken eggs have about 164mg.

For anyone wanting to eat less eggs but get more choline find a duck egg source.

Also there are 23mg per tiny little quail egg. It takes about 3 quail eggs to = 1 chicken egg. So size wise they're loaded with choline!

 

[Ras]

I am focused on getting my choline from food sources.
View attachment 40015

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven-Zeisel/publication/15251760_Choline_and_Human_Nutrition/links/00463522603a36807a000000/Choline-and-Human-Nutrition.pdf

This table suggests that eggs and liver may be the best way to rack up the choline in the diet. Directly supplementing with Phosphatidycholine is another option. I do not know if that is considered to be a reasonable option.
View attachment 40016
Incidently, old-time bodybuilders consumed large quantitied of eggs. Watch Rocky demonstrate a practical method to quickly incorporate eggs into the diet in this video clip.

How can lettuce have more choline than eggs?

 

[LLight]

How can lettuce have more choline than eggs?

Phosphatidylcholine is considered to be equivalent to choline.

 

[Spartan300]

Not sure it really answers your question but eating foods high in betaine (aka Trimethylglycine or TMG) might lower the need for choline.

Thanks, I have some TMG but haven't used it much for fears of disrupting sleep. I'll retry.

Have you seen these threads?

Glaucoma likely a metabolic disease, treatable by pyruvate and/or niacinamide

About a year ago, a publication came out that demonstrated therapeutic effects of raising the (mitochondrial) NAD/NADH ratio in glaucoma patients. That study used niacinamide (NAM) and suggested that the "irreversible" changes in eye structure seen in glaucoma patients are in fact nothing more...

raypeatforum.com

Vitamin B3 (Niacinamide) Shows Promise For Glaucoma Patients In Clinical Trial

"Results of the trial, led by Professor Jonathan Crowston and Dr. Flora Hui at the Center for Eye Research Australia, are published today in Clinical and Experimental Ophthalmology. They show "significant improvement" in the visual function of glaucoma patients who received a daily high dose of...

raypeatforum.com

Niacinamide + pyruvate may treat glaucoma (human study)

Some excellent results from a human clinical trial. Namely, a combination of 3g niacinamide and 3g (calcium) pyruvate daily demonstrated significant therapeutic effect in patients with already established glaucoma. I can't access to actual study link on JAMA, but I suspect the mechanism of...

raypeatforum.com

From old notes - sorry I don't have references but they are filed under ray peat

Because of their stress-like effects, coffee and tobacco should be avoided in glaucoma. The nutrients that are especially involved in the adrenal stress reaction should be used: ascorbic acid, pantothenic acid, riboflavin, vitamin A, magnesium, and vitamin E.

Progesterone (natural form) is a diuretic and also is a precursor for the anti-stress hormones, and sometimes helps glaucoma. The nutrients mentioned above promote its synthesis. Estrogen blocks its actions, so it would seem desirable to "avoid estrogen, and to use the nutrients which oppose estrogen. The eye itself has especially high requirements for vitamins A, B2, and niacin, and coenzyme Q.

Salt and water metabolism involve vitamins B6, pan-tothenic acid, A, C, E, and niacin (see R.J. Kutsky, Handbook of Vitamins and Hormones, p. 263), and various minerals (other than sodium) including magnesium, potassium and zinc. Because of the role of carbon dioxide in circulation, vitamins B1, B6, and biotin, and zinc, should also be con-sidered. Choline is now known to stimulate acetylcholine synthesis, and so might help to promote a normal parasympathetic innervation.

Thanks pettiness, I've seen those threads but never been brave enough to use what appear to be supraphysiological doses for fear of blood sugar issue. Low dose b3 doesn't seen to do much for me

Eating half a dozen eggs is actually the most practical way to do this. Supplements are not as useful and will not be as helpful for recovery since they lack the nutrients in eggs. You dont necessarily need a ton of eggs. 3 to 4 may be enough but this would need to be with at least a half pound of meat or more to add to your choline intake. Milk, yogurt also have a little which can add up with a few servings a day.

Your tolerance to exercise will improve pretty quickly once your choline intake goes up again. Lack of choline will lead to very poor tolerance to exercise since acetylcholine is required for contractions of your muscles. You will be physically weak and also lack endurance.


Way to be a debbie downer. If his choline intake has been low for a long time due to lack of eggs and also lack of meat which are the major sources of choline in most people's diet then it absolutely will. Even if you ate a ton of meat, with no eggs in the diet you would struggle to reach the minimum. The important of choline for exercise cannot be overstated. This is especially an issue with men since we have less estrogen to induce PEMT as effectively as women. And if you are also european you likely have genetic mutations which further reduce PEMTs effectiveness to produce choline. Men, especially european men, are much more dependent on dietary choline to maintain choline levels in the body. And if they don't deliberately obtain more choline with the right foods, eggs being the most convenient and effective way, they get plagued with liver, organ dysfunction, cognitive dysfunction, low muscle tone and overall muscle weakness.

Thanks, I've had 3 or 4 eggs for the last couple of days but for some reason they cause me digestive issues? Indigestion, bloating gurgling, any ideas?

 

[cedric]

glycine , inositol could balance choline methyl group
transsulphuration pathway (B6,Mg) directs homocysteine to cysteine, taurine, sulphate

CHOLINE AS A MEMBER OF THE VITAMIN B2 COMPLEX

The experimental rations commonly used in studies on the vitamin B[2] complex are, as a rule, low in content of choline. Addition of vitamin B[6] has an aggravating influence on the specific effect of deficiency of choline, especially with regard to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Could we be overlooking a potential choline crisis in the United Kingdom? | BMJ Nutrition, Prevention & Health

 

[David PS]

Is dietary choline intake related to dementia and Alzheimer's disease risk: results from the Framingham Heart Study

AbstractBackground. The positive association of choline for cognition has been reported in both animal and human studies, yet the association of choline with th

academic.oup.com

Results: A total of 3,224 participants (53.8% female, mean ± SD age 54.5 ± 9.7 year) were followed up for a mean ± SD of 16.1 ± 5.1 years (1991-2011). There were 247 incident dementia cases, of which 177 were AD. Dietary choline intake showed non-linear relationship with incident dementia and AD. After adjusting for covariates, low choline intake (defined as choline/100 ≤ 2.19 and choline/100 ≤ 2.15 in our sample) was significantly associated with incident dementia or incident AD.

Conclusion: Low choline intake was associated with increased risk of incident dementia or AD.

 

[David PS]

This paper contains very detailed tables. Inquiring minds want to know.

Concentrations of Choline-Containing Compounds and Betaine in Common Foods

Edit - This link below works.

Concentrations of Choline-Containing Compounds and Betaine in Common Foods

Abstract. Choline is important for normal membrane function, acetylcholine synthesis and methyl group metabolism; the choline requirement for humans is 550 mg/d

academic.oup.com